AoD merchants quests

Jora said:

inwoker said:

VD, post some more details on quests, please. For example, you said, that it'll be 20-25. What percent of them would be /small/medium/large/? Is each quest deep and interesting or say we have /not so deep/deep/very deep/? Is each quest class/skills/stats based/dependant or we have some for all chars? etc.... etc... How much dialogue? Fallout 1 or Arcanum ammount?

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I don't have the text files on my new computer but if I remember correctly...

Some of the quests in the starting town are longer than others. A thieves guild quest to find a way to smuggle ore out of town could take your character to three different places of interaction while a merchant quest to find and sell that ore shipment only involves talking to one character and either fighting him or passing the right [persuasion] or [magnetic personality] skill checks. The quest after that one again involves only one character and conversation.

The most often used skills seemed to be persuasion and fightig ablities. Trading was used only to haggle which is something I was disappointed with. There didn't seem to be much use for the alchemy or etiquette skills either but I didn't see all the quests. VD said he's improved the quests and, I guess, added more uses for skills. I think he also said that the starting town quests are meant to be introductory and not overly complex.

The first Imperial Guards quest is a raiding mission with some extra fighting excitement in the end, but it was a well written quest so the lack of options didn't really bother me. You knew you were in for a bloody career when you signed up.

The assassin quests were my favorite. They were full of options and cool things to do, especially the second (you can see it in the RPG Vault article, BTW) and the fourth one. The latter has many ways of fulfilling your contract and one of them is VERY hilarious. The third quest is mainly a well done flavor quest with little interaction until the very end where you are given a nice choice. There's a strong feeling of an exciting fantasy adventure in the assassin quests.

The main quest to gain a audience with lord Antidas had MANY ways to complete using different skills and interacting with different people.

The amount of dialogue doesn't rival PS:T but there was enough of it and it is all very well written. Even the short conversation quests are interesting. No complaints about the NPCs either.

The starting town is definitely more complex than, say, Junktown or Shrouded Hills but some of the side quests are pretty simple. Others have plenty of options.

(Sorry if I remembered it all wrong)
...
VD asked me to post all my criticism and reservations about the quests, so here are some more thoughts:

Of the quests I read, I liked the merchant questline the least. You'd think a merchant would find some interesting use for the trading skill but it's never used in the major negotiations where VD has put in persuasion checks instead. Trading is pretty much like the appraising/haggling skills in all RPGs. I'm sure it's somewhat useful as money appears to be very scarce but it's not used to achieve quest objectives.

The number of other options in the encounters was also a little disappointing. Persuasion and combat seemed to be the only means to solve the problems. For instance, in the third merchant quest you're summoned to meet an internal investigator of the Commercium. He gives you a chance to either change sides and join him or fight him and his lackeys. It would've been nice to have more ways to deal with him. The merchant character is barely more than a hired thug which kind of bugs me.

There are side questlines for all the seven professions and some are more interesting than others.

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Let's start with some comments. First, when I designed quests I didn't want to make them all artificially equal or balanced in terms of gameplay elements. I designed what made sense, based on the factions, their goals, and specific situations.

The assassins guild and the thieves guilds are more flexible, leaving a lot up to you. The Imperial Guards are, well, an army. You follow orders and do what you're told or you end up dead. There are still some choices to be made, but overall their quests are more restrictive and involve a lot of fighting and raiding. Now, the merchants guild. They were never designed as a standard trading organization, making money on wise investments and caravan trades. They are similar to the Star Wars' Trade Federation.

Anyway, here are the first three quests. If you want to avoid spoilers, don't read them. I post them for discussion purposes. If most people won't like them, we'll change them. I don't like showing too much, but sometimes it's necessary to get some feedback.

The format may not be very user-friendly, but hopefully you can sort it out:

Q1:

Linos the Skull looked like a champion of death. His cold, colorless eyes sitting deep within the dark sockets showed no emotions; his thin, lifeless lips rarely formed a smile. Since he was a child, Linos was fascinated with gold. It wasn't greed, but high respect for the almost limitless power over men gold granted those who served it well, and Linos was its most faithful servant and acolyte. He had recently become the guildmaster, and immediately focused his attention and the guild's resources on the thieves guild. Gold was meant to be traded, for goods or one's principles, not taken freely at night by those who had no respect for it. Linos had to ignore such heinous crimes for decades, but now he finally had the power to take the law into his own hands.

I've been told that you wish to trade with us. Your talents for our gold.
I do, master Linos.

You are in luck then, for we have a use for your talents today. If you live 'till tomorrow, we may have other uses. What do you know of the underworld?
The Forty Thieves? I've heard of them…

****if already a member of the guild****
I have another job for you, <charname>. What do you know of the underworld?
The Forty Thieves? I've heard of them…
***

The underworld exists and flourishes everywhere money changes hands. Like a parasite, it sucks gold - the lifeblood of commerce - getting fatter on it and corrupting people. While it can never be completely eliminated, it should be held in check. It should have never been allowed to reign as freely as it does in Teron. It's time to tip the scales.

1. What do you want me to do?
2. Taking on the Forty Thieves Guild isn't exactly what I had in mind when I offered you my services.
What *did* you have in mind then? I have enough paper pushers, storekeepers, and delivery boys. Hiring a few more won't make our guild stronger. Getting rid of the Forty Thieves will. Tell me, <charname>, am I wasting my time talking to you?
Alright, what do you want me to do?
Find someone else, Linos.

3. What about the Imperial Guards?
They are guards in name only. Think of them as the fourth House - the House of Swords. They want nothing but power and control over what's left of the Empire, and chaos is a good way to put pressure on everyone.


If 1.
The underworld is not a typical organization. It's a chain of people: a corrupt guard here, a few smugglers there; those who sell stolen goods and those who buy stolen goods, and many, many others. That's the underworld biggest strength, as it makes it very hard to eliminate it, and that's its biggest weakness. Removing even one link will sever the chain. Removing a few...

A large shipment of iron was stolen recently. Ask around for a good deal. Those who took it can afford to sell it at rates no merchant would. Report back to me when you are done.

1. I will do as you asked.
2. Taking on the Forty Thieves Guild isn't exactly what I had in mind when I offered you my services.
3. Should I recover the shipment if I see an opportunity?
No. Your job is to find out where the shipment is. No more, no less. Is that understood?
Yes, master.

If 1 and not a member of the guild:

I will do as you asked.
Then consider yourself to be in the Commercium's service. Let me give you a few tips ... *Linos outlines the basic principles of trading and persuasion, improving your understanding of these subjects*
Reputation: 5, Trading +10, Persuasion +5

............................................
The Tavern

Cado:

How can I help you, my friend?
Who are you?
A humble trader who's willing to offer good prices to his friends.
Can I see your wares?
Most certainly
I need some iron ore. Do you have any?
Are you a craftsman, my friend?
Yes
No

Yes - I'm honored by your presence then. Perhaps, you can help me. I've found a rare piece of ore here. Can you tell me what it is?
[crafting skill check - fail]I'm not really sure.
It's iron, my friend. You know, that ore you were so interested in buying...
*A dagger appears out of nowhere* I find it odd that as soon as a shipment of ore goes missing, someone who looks like he doesn't belong here starts asking questions about it. Don't you?

[crafting skill check - pass]I hate to disappoint you, but that's iron ore. There's nothing rare about it.
My apologies for testing you in such a manner, but strangers asking questions don't come here everyday. Talk to Danos at the marketplace and tell him that I sent you. My name is Cado.

No - Why would you need ore then? *A dagger appears out of nowhere* I find it odd that as soon as a shipment of ore goes missing, someone who looks like he doesn't belong here starts asking questions about it. Don't you?

*run*
*fight*
[persuasion]Easy there. I know someone in Maadoran who's interested in a shipment of iron ore, but doesn't want to pay what the merchants guild sells it for. So, what was that you said about a shipment of ore missing?
<fail> I said that as soon as a shipment of ore goes missing, someone who looks like he doesn't belong here starts asking questions about it. *attacks*
<success> Alright. Find Danos at the marketplace tell him that I sent you. My name is Cado.

If you managed to kill Cado:

Linos: So, I asked you to find the stolen shipment quietly and you went straight to the thieves den, picked a fight with Cado and killed the thieving son of a bitch. If that's the best you can do, then consider choosing a different trade, involving killing people first and asking questions later. *he sighs* Still, it took skills and guts, and these ... talents may come in handy one day.

If you failed to kill Cado, but survived:

Linos: I've heard it already, so there is no need to explain anything. You've made it clear that you lack skills we may find useful, but other guilds are less discriminating, I'm sure. Your ... services are no longer required, <charname>.

If you got the name of the trader:

*Linos looks at you expectantly
Danos, one of your own traders, has the shipment. *tell Linos what you've learned*
You've done a good job, <charname>. Please accept this small token of my gratitude <100> and let's discuss your next task.
.........................................................................
So, you have three ways to handle this quest: persuasion, crafting, combat. I don't really see any other logical option here.

Q2:


What needs to be done?
We'll buy our ore shipment from the thieves guild. *Linos smiles in a very unpleasant way*. Talk to your new friend Cado and make arrangements to ship the ore to Maadoran. That is all.
It will be done.
I must confess that I don't understand.
I certainly hope so. If my plans were transparent, they wouldn't be very effective, would they?

Cado: Ah, hello, my friend. Danos told me that you've already paid for the shipment. Is there anything else I can help you with?

I need to move the shipment to Maadoran. Any ideas?
The merchants have locked Teron down and forced Antidas to replace all gate guards. That creates certain difficulties, but for a modest fee we can arrange everything. Let's say 500 imperials.
500 it is then.
[trading]It would be cheaper for me to pay the trading tariffs.
It would be, but explaining why you are shipping the stolen ore may lead to ... complications.
I can drop the price to 400 imperials because you've already done some business with us, but we'll not do it for less.
We have a deal then.

I've gotta tell you though, my friend, you are very efficient. I'm surprised I've never heard about you. *Judging by the way Cado is looking at you, that was a question*

What do you mean?
I mean that you've appeared out of nowhere and casually spent a small fortune dealing with the guild most people prefer to stay clear of. Something isn't what it seems.
Are we doing business or not, Cado?
Not today, stranger.

[persuasion]Few things are these days, Cado, but that's not the reason to act paranoid.
I'm not going to risk my operations for 500 imperials.
I'll double the price then. One thousand imperials.
Now I know that something is definitely wrong. That's way too much money for a simple smuggling run. Kill him/her!
Surely you don't expect me to pay more? The price is high enough already.
*Cado relaxes a bit. Looks like you picked the right answer* The price is fair, but I still have my reservations.
[persuasion] I understand, but what exactly do you worry about? I'm not asking you any questions. How you ship that ore, which, by the way, is still in your possession to Maadoran is up to you. How's that different from any other smuggling run?
You are right. One can never be too careful these days, but we can't stop our operations completely, can we?
I'll see your people in Maadoran then.
Your involvement. I can't explain it, but I do have a bad feeling about this run, so the answer is no. You better be on your way, stranger.
Return to Linos.

[charisma=10] You can trust me, Cado. (personal magnetism option)
I trust you, <charname>. We'll deliver your ore shipment to Maadoran.
Thank you.

Linos:
What's taking so long?
I'm getting nowhere.
Then what are you doing here? Get out and don't come back until the job is done.

or

Linos:

*Congratulations on a job well done, <charname>. Everything went perfectly. We weren't sure who would show up to pick up the shipment, but imagine my surprise when Nessa - sweet, innocent-looking Nessa, the courtesan of lord Berias - ordered the shipment to be sent to her Maadoran residence. Needless to say, nobody would even think - or dare - to open boxes bearing lord Berias' seal, especially when beautiful Nessa herself is accompanying the caravan. Unfortunately, it turned out that the ore shipment contained enough black powder to blow up a building...

More than twenty people dead, including sweet Nessa who should have been more selective with her friends. It will take the Forty Thieves a long time to recover from this blow. I was told that Cado had finally figured it out and sent one of his people to stop the caravan, but it was too late. Cado's looking for you right now, so if I were you I would avoid the gate district.

Here is your reward. <500>

............................................
Again, the way the quest is designed, everything revolves around Cado. It won't make sense to threaten him or to bribe him. You can only convince him to give it a shot. There are two persuasion checks (and the Jedi Mind Trick option) and that's all I can do there.

Q3

I can't believe it! *Linos looks like he's having a heart attack. Fortunately, he doesn't have a heart, so his life doesn't seem to be in any immediate danger.* They sent Damias, that fucking snake, to audit ME! After all I've done for the guild!

Who's Damias?
He's a procurator, he investigates ... problems within the guild. Apparently, my guild brothers running our operations in other towns were disturbed by the recent events, whatever that may mean. *he sighs* Damias asked for you. You'll find him in the inn. *Linos hesitates* Should an opportunity to get rid of Damias present itself, take it. It would be a favor I will not forget.

....

Ah, <charname>, I've heard a lot about you. Linos wants me to believe that you are a very smart and capable individual. And that you alone are to blame for shifting the guild's attention from making profit to targeting those petty thieves. Linos, of course, accepts that he too shares the blame and thus must pay the price, so he is fully prepared to sacrifice you to save his own ass. A noble sacrifice, don't you think?

I assume that Linos asked you to kill me - I would be disappointed in him if he didn't, and I assume you've agreed, otherwise you wouldn't be here. I'm impressed. Such loyalty to Linos. Such *misplaced* loyalty.

1. *attack*
2. You assumed wrong. I'm here to offer you my services.
You have the instincts of a rat, <charname>. Rats always desert a ship way before it sinks. A questionable, but effective trait. Your offer is accepted. We are leaving for Maadoran tonight. If you have any unfinished business in Teron, finish it now.

3. Misplaced? Unlike the loyalty to ... what?
The guild, of course. I serve the Commercium and invite you to do the same. Linos served his own flawed beliefs, which is why he's no longer a guildmaster. You don't have to share his fall. If you still want to serve the guild, accompany me to Maadoran and I'll help you to start a new chapter. What do you say?
I'll pass.
I'll go with you.
What about Linos?
Don't worry, he'll live. After all, he has a debt to work off. Killing him would be ... wasteful.
I thought that Linos' plan was effective?
It was. Linos did deal a serious blow to the Forty Thieves' operations in Teron, but he also dealt a serious blow to our relationship with several Noble Houses. Lord Berias was devastated by the death of Nessa, and his friends in high places weren't impressed that Berias' courtesan was killed in such a vulgar fashion.


If 1. Two assistants draw blades and advance silently.

*if you kill them, go to Linos:

Damias? *Looks like the audit has cured Linos' verbosity*
He's dead and so are his two "assistants" who were surprisingly handy with blades.
You are a man of many talents, <charname>, and I'm in your debt. *Linos takes off his golden chain and puts it around your neck*. It's yours.

I want you to visit our guild's operations in other towns. Talk to guildmasters. Inform them that noble Damias was killed by bandits before reaching Teron. Try to convince them that our actions against the thieves guild were justified.
I'll leave immediately.
Damias told me interesting things before he died.
The man couldn't be trusted when he was alive. Why should we believe him when he's dead?
Aye.
You sold me out, Linos.
I did what I had to do to save the guild. You survived and earned a higher place within the guild. That's what important. So, stop wasting my time already and do what I told you. Unless you have a better idea.
You are right, Linos. I'll be on my way.
As a matter of fact, I do. *kill him*
....................................

The last quest is designed as a logical conclusion to the Teron's questline. You have a decision to make, not a problem to solve. There are long term consequences to your choice.

Overall, the merchant "class" is designed as negotiator and manipulator. The next questline deals with a silver mine. The merchant guild wants it and your role would be to use the guild's power and influence, forcing a Noble House to take over the mine and hand it to your guild.

I would have no problems with changing the first 3 quests and doing something different. Or tweaking the quests. Discuss.

PS. Don't mind the writing. I'm working with an editor right now, so mistakes that may offend your delicate eyes will be fixed soon.

Quest 1, Variation 1:

Talking to Merchant:
1. Show me your wares.
2. Nice shirt.
3. Rumors
4. You wouldn't happen to sell iron, would you?

if 4:

Are you daft? Stupid? Fucking blind? I'm a tailor. Besides...

1. Besides, what?
2. Nevermind, then.
3. Watch your tongue, nancy!

if 1:

What? Oh, nothing.

1. Nevermind, then.
2. [streetwise]No, you know something. Where could I find iron?

if 2(pass):

I don't whisper behind the reaper's back, friend.

1. [Persuade]
2. [Intimidate]
3. [Bribe]
4. Perhaps that's wise. Farewell.

1, 2, or 3 pass: with slight variations, if you like

You're looking for a man named Danos, but you didn't hear it from me.

----------------------------------------------

Variation 2:

Talking to Danos:

1. Wares
2. Rumors
3. How's business?

if 3:

...

1.[Trading] Well, sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do to turn a profit.

That's exactly my philosophy. Say, if you know anyone who might need some iron, get it from me. My, uh, suppliers have the best prices in town. *wink wink*

A couple of questions:

What happens when you reach a "dead end"?

Examples:

Your involvement. I can't explain it, but I do have a bad feeling about this run, so the answer is no. You better be on your way, stranger.
Return to Linos.

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What do you mean?
I mean that you've appeared out of nowhere and casually spent a small fortune dealing with the guild most people prefer to stay clear of. Something isn't what it seems.
Are we doing business or not, Cado?
Not today, stranger.

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Is the questline over? Can you go to Maadoran and continue it there?

If you kill both Damias and Linos, can you continue the questline?

Again, the way the quest is designed, everything revolves around Cado. It won't make sense to threaten him or to bribe him. You can only convince him to give it a shot. There are two persuasion checks (and the Jedi Mind Trick option) and that's all I can do there.

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And a trading one if I read correctly. Are the checks easy to achieve? I mean, if I have a fair focus in persuasion and trading I should be able to pass them, right?

I'm still suggesting the following:

Quest #2

- the PC can use the disguise skill to make himself somebody who has a fake history of buying and selling ore (maybe in service of some noble in a distant town - the character could use the lore skill to forge a document proving this) or create some other background for the thief master to believe in.

Quest #3

- If the PC is intelligent or experienced enough, he should be able to realize that the procurator is probably looking for people to punish. He could appeal to Linos and ask for some extra money that he could use to buy an assassin to kill the procurator. The assassination contract wouldn't be cheap.

- Alternatively, an agile player could visit the inn at night to confront the procurator when he's alone in his room.

- Or disguise a hired sell sword to represent him in the meeting with instructions to get close to the procurator and attack. The PC could join the fight.

Elhoim said:

And a trading one if I read correctly.

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It doesn't seem to affect the outcome of the quest. Whether you succeed or fail to buy the shipment depends on the mind trick or the persuasion skill.

Jora said:

Elhoim said:

And a trading one if I read correctly.

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It doesn't seem to affect the outcome of the quest. Whether you succeed or fail to buy the shipment depends on the mind trick or the persuasion skill.

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That's too bad... I think it should be another way to end the quest.

- the PC can use the disguise skill to make himself somebody who has a fake history of buying and selling ore (maybe in service of some noble in a distant town - the character could use the lore skill to forge a document proving this) or create some other background for the thief master to believe in.

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Good sugestion... That NPC suspects the background PC, and using disguise to cover that it's a nice option.

Q3 suggestions are interesting too, as ways to avoid the 2 on 1 fight and still be able to select the outcome with Linos. Right now is:

- Join Damias.

- Fight 2 on 1 and join Linos.

- Fight 2 on 1 and kill Linos.

Getting in a difficult fight is the only way to join Linos. I agree that it should be a hard choice to back Linos, but it would be great if a witty and skilled character could avoid the fight altogether.

- If the PC is intelligent or experienced enough, he should be able to realize that the procurator is probably looking for people to punish. He could appeal to Linos and ask for some extra money that he could use to buy an assassin to kill the procurator. The assassination contract wouldn't be cheap.

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The PC should also use money of his own to hire the assasin. It would be like "buying" your way out of the fight. Very merchant-like.

- Or disguise a hired sell sword to represent him in the meeting with instructions to get close to the procurator and attack. The PC could join the fight.

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He could present him as his associate, using disguise skill perhaps, and the PC must join the fight, but with more even odds.

Elhoim said:

Is the questline over? Can you go to Maadoran and continue it there?

If you kill both Damias and Linos, can you continue the questline?

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Yes to both questions.

And a trading one if I read correctly.

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No. Trading is negotiating. Since money matter it's a useful skill, but it's not a skill you can use to handle quests and beat the game. It add flavor though:

Raiders' leader: We've found this fine young man in these rather dangerous woods. After he mentioned that he's a nephew of a local lord, we felt that it's our duty to ensure his safety. I'm sure that the lord of the town would appreciate our help and reward us generously. I think that 1,000 imperials should be enough.

Lord Antidas will certainly appreciate your kindness, but 1,000 imperials is too much.

Who can put a price on the life of a kin?

That depends on a kin, doesn't it? This particular kin is hardly worth more then 200 imperials.

I paid more for my dog. 900 imperials, and only as a token of my respect.

A good dog is hard to find. Useless relatives are not. 300 imperials is a good price for one.

If he's so useless, why pay anything at all? 800 imperials.

What can I say? Lord Antidas is a kind man. 400 imperials.

Kind enough to pay 500 imperials?

That should be acceptable, I'll be back with the money.
...
You can still get the full ransom and pocket the difference.

Are the checks easy to achieve? I mean, if I have a fair focus in persuasion and trading I should be able to pass them, right?

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If you make persuasion one of your primary skills you should have a good chance to succeed.

Jora said:

I'm still suggesting the following:

Quest #2

- the PC can use the disguise skill to make himself somebody who has a fake history of buying and selling ore (maybe in service of some noble in a distant town - the character could use the lore skill to forge a document proving this) or create some other background for the thief master to believe in.

Click to expand...

We can do that.

Quest #3

- If the PC is intelligent or experienced enough, he should be able to realize that the procurator is probably looking for people to punish. He could appeal to Linos and ask for some extra money that he could use to buy an assassin to kill the procurator. The assassination contract wouldn't be cheap.

Click to expand...

Doesn't sound logical. Since Linos is trying to shift the blame on you, why would he give you money? If you kill the procurator, well, it's a different story, and you can always be blamed for that later. The way I see it, only Linos can order the assassination, but he would wait for you to talk to Damias first and see what happens. You may handle his problem or he may have to place an order to take care of two people, not one.

- Alternatively, an agile player could visit the inn at night to confront the procurator when he's alone in his room.

Click to expand...

Since he came with bodyguards, he won't be alone in his room. He's in a hostile area and he's expecting assassination attempts. Besides, it doesn't make any sense for you to suspect anything. You are a nobody, you followed orders, and you're told that someone from the "head office" wants to talk to you. Why would you suspect anything?

- Or disguise a hired sell sword to represent him in the meeting with instructions to get close to the procurator and attack. The PC could join the fight.

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See above. We can change the quest to support such options (you're told that Linos disappeared and that the procurator wants to take you in for questioning, which would justify some counter-measures), but I like how Damias approaches you now. Still, I'm open for suggestions.

Looks good.

Of course, the suggestions for extra options are great (especially the one to hire assassins -and what about cashing in a favor with the imperials - better yet, what about a "favor pool" with "points" you can cash in for a appropriate (for the faction) favor?), but there is a practical limit to the solutions and complexity a quest can have.

Your choice of solutions is quite reasonable and logical, too.

If this is the standard, it is much more than I have seen in any game. Congratulations.

A question that might have been answered already: do you have to be lucky to pass dialogue checks, or are the requirements set in stone?

Vault Dweller said:

Doesn't sound logical. Since Linos is trying to shift the blame on you, why would he give you money?

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You realize he's trying to blame it on you and manage to convince him with your magnetic personality that Damias isn't content with just your head and that a quick action is worth the risk.

The way I see it, only Linos can order the assassination

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Why, don't the assassins like money? You could pretend to be following Linos' orders when talking to the them. "My boss is having trouble with an investigator too curious for his own good" etc. You did come there once before, so they're used to dealing with you.

You are a nobody, you followed orders, and you're told that someone from the "head office" wants to talk to you. Why would you suspect anything?

Click to expand...

You knew your boss stirred some shit up and is worried.

"He's a procurator, he investigates ... problems within the guild. Apparently, my guild brothers running our operations in other towns were disturbed by the recent events, whatever that may mean. *he sighs* Damias asked for you. You'll find him in the inn. *Linos hesitates* Should an opportunity to get rid of Damias present itself, take it. It would be a favor I will not forget."

Pretty clear what the atmosphere at the meeting will be, isn't it? A smart character should have no problems figuring it out. Some tough guy comes to town demanding answers and scaring Linos. I know I would be nervous. Besides, Linos does urge you to kill him. You could also ask other merchants what they think Damias has come to do and how it concerns you. Some of them might be interested in getting rid of Linos and tell you how you're getting screwed.

sqeecoo said:

If this is the standard, it is much more than I have seen in any game. Congratulations.

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According to most people (about 20 folks) who either played or read the quests, that's the weakest quests.

A question that might have been answered already: do you have to be lucky to pass dialogue checks, or are the requirements set in stone?

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Requirements.

Jora said:

Vault Dweller said:

Doesn't sound logical. Since Linos is trying to shift the blame on you, why would he give you money?

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You realize he's trying to blame it on you...

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Why would you? You did what you were asked to do. Linos didn't tell you what he's doing. You are told that the procurator wants to talk to you, which is reasonable and to be expected. You may suspect that Linos is in deep shit, but not you. Unless we change how the situation is presented.

The way I see it, only Linos can order the assassination

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Why, don't the assassins like money?

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I meant logically. If my boss fucks up and I'm summoned to see his boss, I'll be prepared to be offered his job and the last thing on my mind would be trying to kill the guy. Now, I don't want to tell the player what he may or may not suspect, but any action should be based on some logic, and I just don't see it here.

Pretty clear what the atmosphere at the meeting will be, isn't it?

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Yep. Linos is screwed. You're in the clear. That's what I would have thought and I've seen a lot of backstabbing in my corporate environment.

A smart character should have no problems figuring it out. Some tough guy comes to town demanding answers and scaring Linos. I know I would be nervous. Besides, Linos does urge you to kill him.

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*I* would have thought "Yeah, right. Like I'm THAT stupid. Good bye, Linos, it was nice knowing you..."

Well, you could still use the other merchants in the guild as a means of conveying information about the procurator. Or you could take Linos' side from the start and do him a favor by killing the procurator. It's clear Linos wishes him dead. You wouldn't get his job anyway, some older guildsman would.

In my quest to remain reasonably unspoiled, I have not read the spoilery portions of VD's post here, so I'm not going to comment too much on the specifics of what's been discussed. I just wanted to say that what makes me happiest about the thread is VD's focus on motivation for the NPCs. What I read of other people's suggestions all sounded reasonable, and more options are always good, but I love that it seems like quests will be based around faction and character motivations rather than externally imposed plot points. So basically: I haven't read enough to agree with one side or the other in the argument/discussion, but I love the way in which you're arguing.

Also . . .

sqeecoo said:

what about a "favor pool" with "points" you can cash in for a appropriate (for the faction) favor?)

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This is a really interesting idea. I don't know how well it would fit in AoD, but I would really like to see it implemented somewhere. It seems like a logical generalization of the Obsidian influence system to factions rather than individuals, or an extension of a fairly standard reputation system so that there are real in-game benefits/consequences for your reputation beyond simply blocking off quests.

Yeah, a "favor pool" is a good idea. Maybe VD could implement it in his second game (along with advantages & disadvantages!)

With trading you are not just passing dollars around. You are exchanging goods and services for money. There is also the trader ethos you could use to add further options to a merchant character.

I prettied up the examples so that they are easier to follow.

Are you a craftsman, my friend?
1. Yes
2. No

If 1.
Yes - I'm honored by your presence then. Perhaps, you can help me. I've found a rare piece of ore here. Can you tell me what it is?
[crafting skill check - fail]I'm not really sure.
It's iron, my friend. You know, that ore you were so interested in buying...
*A dagger appears out of nowhere* I find it odd that as soon as a shipment of ore goes missing, someone who looks like he doesn't belong here starts asking questions about it. Don't you?

[crafting skill check - pass]I hate to disappoint you, but that's iron ore. There's nothing rare about it.
My apologies for testing you in such a manner, but strangers asking questions don't come here everyday. Talk to Danos at the marketplace and tell him that I sent you. My name is Cado.

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I'm wondering if you could have an additional check here to expand the trade skill. Something like:

[trading skill check - successful]It's iron ore. I used to sell it to blacksmiths when I was younger/it is a trade good I have experience with/I saw a sample at the merchant's den while I was perusing their stock/some other excuse. It isn't rare at all.

Basically it is a common good that you would expect a trader to have some familiarity with. Otherwise they wouldn't be that great of a merchant if they didn't know everyday commodities that the people consume.

Now I want to bring up the trader ethos with the next quest.

I've gotta tell you though, my friend, you are very efficient. I'm surprised I've never heard about you. Judging by the way Cado is looking at you, that was a question.
What do you mean?

I mean that you've appeared out of nowhere and casually spent a small fortune dealing with the guild most people prefer to stay clear of. Something isn't what it seems.
Are we doing business or not, Cado?

Not today, stranger.

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[trading]A trader buys low and sells high, Cado. Opportunities come and go just as quickly as the passing of gold. If you hesitate when opportunity presents itself then you might not have a second chance to take it. I was passing through Teron and I hear of opportunity. What about you?

I'm hoping you see what I did there, VD. The basic principle behind a trader is that they buy low, sell high, and to make calculated risks in order to line their pockets and are opportunists to make a quick buck. I'm not too sure if this is what you have in mind for the trader skill but it opens up another avenue to consider for roleplaying.

Finally a bit of a nitpick.

Damias told me interesting things before he died.
The man couldn't be trusted when he was alive. Why should we believe him when he's dead?
1. Aye.
2. You sold me out, Linos.

If 2.
I did what I had to do to save the guild. You survived and earned a higher place within the guild. That's what important. So, stop wasting my time already and do what I told you. Unless you have a better idea.
1. You are right, Linos. I'll be on my way.
2. As a matter of fact, I do. *kill him*

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The player character just killed three people. Two of them were bodyguards. He probably did it singlehandedly. Why would Linos admit anything close to the truth and act antagonizing instead of denying, denying and denying some more and on the plus side butter the player character up and sending him far away before he figures out that Linos screwed him over?

Maybe something like:

"He offered you a position under his wing, didn't he? What he did was try to drive a wedge between us because he understood just how much of an asset you are to the guild. I have other, more... expendable persons employed for emergencies like this. No, you are too valuable to lose and the only one I can trust to go to the other towns and spread my message to their guild leaders."

I'm pretty sure your writer could come up with something better/more in character.

Jora said:

Well, you could still use the other merchants in the guild as a means of conveying information about the procurator. Or you could take Linos' side from the start and do him a favor by killing the procurator. It's clear Linos wishes him dead. You wouldn't get his job anyway, some older guildsman would.

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You never know. However, we can develop the "he wants him dead" angle further and give you an option to please or score points with Linos and make sure that Damias ends up dead.

Great analysis, Sovy. Let me think about it.

While your open style of development is certainly refreshing, do you think you could put a spoiler warning in the title the next time you make a topic like this?

It is just that I am starting to worry about all the stuff I am reading negatively effecting the enjoyment I get from those (hopefully) magical first couple play throughs.

Want to give some suggestions but don't want to spoil game for me. Anyway, I read through some of other's advices and found them awesome so maybe you won't need mine

Sovy Kurosei said:

[trading skill check - successful]It's iron ore. I used to sell it to blacksmiths when I was younger/it is a trade good I have experience with/I saw a sample at the merchant's den while I was perusing their stock/some other excuse. It isn't rare at all.

Click to expand...

[trading]A trader buys low and sells high, Cado. Opportunities come and go just as quickly as the passing of gold. If you hesitate when opportunity presents itself then you might not have a second chance to take it. I was passing through Teron and I hear of opportunity. What about you?

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Good ideas! You're thinking outside the box.

Rhett Butler said:

While your open style of development is certainly refreshing, do you think you could put a spoiler warning in the title the next time you make a topic like this?

It is just that I am starting to worry about all the stuff I am reading negatively effecting the enjoyment I get from those (hopefully) magical first couple play throughs.

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The third paragraph:

"Anyway, here are the first three quests. If you want to avoid spoilers, don't read them. I post them for discussion purposes."

I really like Sovy's suggestions...worth considering seriously.

Sovy Kurosei said:

With trading you are not just passing dollars around. You are exchanging goods and services for money.

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Again, the merchant guild is less about trading and exchanging goods and more about using their financial influence to create favorable (to the guild) market conditions. Examples are keeping, and assassinating if necessary, independent traders; controlling mines and selling ore to smiths and craftsmen at extortionary rates, influencing Noble Houses decisions with money, etc.

I'm wondering if you could have an additional check here to expand the trade skill. Something like:

[trading skill check - successful]It's iron ore. I used to sell it to blacksmiths when I was younger/it is a trade good I have experience with/I saw a sample at the merchant's den while I was perusing their stock/some other excuse. It isn't rare at all.

Basically it is a common good that you would expect a trader to have some familiarity with. Otherwise they wouldn't be that great of a merchant if they didn't know everyday commodities that the people consume.

Click to expand...

A trader? Yes. AoD "merchant"? No. They are more of the management class, not hands-on traders.

[trading]A trader buys low and sells high, Cado. Opportunities come and go just as quickly as the passing of gold. If you hesitate when opportunity presents itself then you might not have a second chance to take it. I was passing through Teron and I hear of opportunity. What about you?

I'm hoping you see what I did there, VD. The basic principle behind a trader is that they buy low, sell high, and to make calculated risks in order to line their pockets and are opportunists to make a quick buck. I'm not too sure if this is what you have in mind for the trader skill but it opens up another avenue to consider for roleplaying.

Click to expand...

Independent traders are rare these days. At the beginning of the game an independent trader is killed in Teron. So, anybody who "buys low and sells high" would somehow be involved with the thieves guild and Cado would have heard about him/her. Hence, his reservations and the need for persuasion.

The player character just killed three people. Two of them were bodyguards. He probably did it singlehandedly. Why would Linos admit anything close to the truth and act antagonizing instead of denying, denying and denying some more and on the plus side butter the player character up and sending him far away before he figures out that Linos screwed him over?

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Linos doesn't care. The AoD world is often violent, so capable fighters/killers aren't exactly a rarity. Linos believes that his actions were reasonable under the circumstances and the PC does need a master (in Linos' opinion) to guide him.

Still, your suggestions were great. Consider my points and try to come up with more ideas.

A trader? Yes. AoD "merchant"? No. They are more of the management class, not hands-on traders.

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And they were always such? They start as managers without knowledge of trading? Or are they succesful traders that in time become managers?

Many times you start low until you reach the top of the food chain, isn't that right?