bryce777
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Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 4226
Location: In my country the system operates YOU
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 Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Kharn wrote: | | bryce777 wrote: | | Four 'crime bosses'. These guys had a dozen or two men, each, at most. The one guy had a total of three fucking henchmen. The other one was an actual family. As someone said it is a sort of tribal setup with the trappings of oldtime gangsters. And not MUCH trappings...most of it is in the fucking perk descriptions, ffs. |
Aye, and there were only a few dozen people in NCR 
Fleet of cars, baby!
Uhm, I mean...the families were big, well-organised organisations. This isn't shown by the actual number of henchman, because Fallout is not "ZOMG big world" like modern CRPGs are obliged to be, but it is implied by the number of henchman shown (roughly equal in number of NCR's guard force) and the influence spread.
| bryce777 wrote: | | Fallout draws from the past, but is not limited to the 50s. Plenty of shit from the 60s. I lived in the 50s and I know. |
Then you should also know this cool-style gangster stuff is not from the 50s or 60s, it *is* from the 20s/30s. And while Fallout does sometimes overlap into the 60s past, saying it "draws from the past, but is not limited to the 50s" means sword-fighting knights are fine, as much as gangsters are. What're you limiting it to?
| bryce777 wrote: | | Brewing booze is the simplest thing int he universe. Are you seriousl suggesting the master can run a huge fucking factory with the fev virus in order to dip mutants, and a few goombahs in the desert can't distill some motherfucking whiskey? |
Brewing booze vs. brewing FEV is not the point, thanks for missing that completely.
The point is organisation and structure.
Crime families do not exist on their own. They exist as leeches to society. They can *not* exist without a seperate state organisation, they never have. Just like without a proper organisation society can not evolve beyond "Me Grunthar!", crime families can not go beyond mobs of highwaymen.
And this is what Fallout 1 expressed where Fallout 2 in the form of New Reno failed. Those hundreds of bandits mentioned elsewhere are all seperate roaming bands, surviving because they leech of trade caravans and hunt animals. Of course their numbers don't match the number of farmers, but we all know there were more people in the Hub "than displayed".
New Reno seems to imply a society that exists only on drugs and alcohol and gambling in a time when most people are probably starving of droughts. This makes no sense. Where's the revenue coming from? Where's the surpluss cash to *invest* into crime? Where's the structured society they can exist on? NCR? NCR hates them, they do not exist within NCR, they exist outside of it.
Fallout 1 understood better that crime exists only within societies, not as a seperate entity. Gizmo lived off Junktown and if he ran Junktown he would've been hardpressed not to push on some legitimate bussiness as well. The Hub wasn't run by outlaws, the outlaws were just there to make a buck of it. Every town exists through agriculture and trade.
So that leaves New Reno, with nothing to trade but drugs and booze which the nearest major powers (Vault City and NCR) have a ban on. Sure you could slip in enough drugs and booze to run a small illegal racket, but found a city on it? Dumbest thing I ever heard of.
Russia is a good example of all the above, if you need proof. Understand Russia's crime mentality, understand that to become as big as they do they have to be integrated into legitimate society rather than just pumping out drugs. Understand, also, that roaming bandits and pirates can much more easily exist within scattered semi-civilised civilizations, because all they do is leech of excess food and cash in a very limited amount, rather than the huge amounts which is required to run a crime organisations properly.
Nope, truth is Fallout's world is not organised enough to support crime of that size. Even with NCR. |
I realize, obviously, that capone was from the 30s, but there were still gangsters later on as well - OR WHY WOULD I MAKE THAT FUCKING POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE? Also, NONE of the gangsters act like 30s gangsters and this is what really gets me about all the bitching. As for what belongs there, I would think Tim Cain, the guy who came up with fallout and came up with the idea for New Reno, would have a better idea what fits the setting than you me or serge.
As for the city, again there are two points you seem incapable of grasping - they are NOT gangsters in the traditional sense. When the gangsters take total power they are more than gangsters. In russia, they have almost total control of huge parts of the country. When a gangster is a billionaire he ceases to be a gangster in most people's minds, but at heart he is the same fellow. A king is is little different than a bandit unless he has power. As I said only a million fucking times, games have the same exact organization as a primitive tribe - which is EXACTLY the kind of organization that would come about at first after an apocalyptic event. And, just because you do not see every little town and every outlying farm does not mean they don't exist. Why the fuck would you want to talk to all the farmers, though? There are obviously more people, but I doubt it is even in the thousands - vault city, after all, has a population of 109.
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Keep RPGs evil. |
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