Tactics in TB combat

Oyarsa · Jan 4, 2005

Festive cartoon festoon

High/Low Ground also can affect melee combat with high ground, staircases for instance, giving bonuses to the hit probability and damage. Defensive bonuses for the high ground are debatable especially for heavily armoured combatants.

Extended battles should wear down the combaatants' abilities. This could be stamina-based or a more complex calculation. Either way effectiveness in combat should degrade as the battle lengthens -> more likely to miss and less likely to dodge.

Fez · Jan 4, 2005

Vault Dweller said:
- poison/stunning gas (grenades)

Click to expand...

I have poison powder (gas would be too advanced for the period)

You can squeeze in poisoned gas: Here "we know of the arsenic-containing "soul-hunting fog".

"Heavy" armour does not encumber the wearer when getting up like people imagine (the image a lot of people seem to have is a turtle on it's back). I've seen a man about sixty, lightly built, in full plate mail, with a long sword, lie down in the mud and leap up in about a second just to prove to everyone watching that the myth of them being slow or stuck was untrue. The skill in making good armour was making it protective while not inhibiting the warrior's movements. After thousands of years of making armour they had it down to a fine art by the medieval period. The weight was not too bad either as it was spread evenly across the body - similar to how an overweight person isn't suddenly crippled by an excess amount of fat (until the ridiculous stages), as it is spread evenly across the body. Warriors would of course have the advantage of being fitter than your average modern couch potato from either training and fighting or even manual labour during peacetime.

You could maybe have bad quality armour being a hinderance due to poor fitting or construction. The main danger of the heavier armours was heat build-up really. In the summer or a desert it would be hellish to be in a tinsuit filled with quilting and chain mail.

deus · Jan 4, 2005

I'd like to see parrying in addition to shields. You obviosly shouldn't be able to block an axe with a dagger, but there's no good reason for why I can't parry a sword attack with my own sword.

suibhne · Jan 4, 2005

Feinting of some sort should be in, certainly. And I always like to have an option between high-DEX/low-armor and high-STR/heavy-armor approaches to melee combat (to put it in D&D terms); different skills and combat maneuvers should be applicable for each of those generic types. Sounds as if you might already have this covered, but I figured I'd make the point just in case.

As for arrow recovery, I suggest a high recovery rate - but break it down between recovering the intact arrow or merely recovering the arrowhead. An arrow's shaft is fairly easily broken, but arrowheads (which you indicated are the important crafting product anyway) should be highly durable; basically, you should be able to recover them unless they're just plain lost. Given enough time, a character with a high perception or search skill might even be able to recover 100% of all arrowheads.

Quigs · Jan 4, 2005

Weapons that do more damage depending on the opponent, like morningstars doing more damage against opponents wearing ring mail.

The ability to push with weapons, both to push the enemy back, and to push yourself away.

Interrupt evade. If a spearman stands on open ground with interrupt activated, I dont want my swordsman to walk straight into his jabbing.

Extra attacks per round engaged with the same enemy. The first time engaged in combat, so much is unknown, like fighting styles, speed, finesse. The longer engaged, the more is known, and the more that can be done.

Improvised attacks, like slamming your shoulder into someone while already engaged.

Scare tactics, like thrusting a sword towards the opponents legs to get them to stand on one foot, and then bash then with a shield, knocking them over.

Vault Dweller · Jan 4, 2005

Re:

Oyarsa said:
Extended battles should wear down the combaatants' abilities. This could be stamina-based or a more complex calculation.

There is no stamina or anything like that. Never liked that in games. Instead I'm offering to assume that fighters really like to fight and can do that all day long 'cause it makes them happy :lol:

Fez said:
You can squeeze in poisoned gas: Here "we know of the arsenic-containing "soul-hunting fog".

Hmm, apparently I stand corrected. The ancient bastards were as vicious as we are. Anyway, still, considering that we have a one guy operation here (reference to the single character), it's safe to assume that he won't be able to produce industrial grade poison gas while camping, so poison powder it is. It can still be used in a variety of ways though.

"Heavy" armour does not encumber the wearer ...

You may be right here, but I think that a guy wearing a leather jacket can move and react much faster, then a guy in a heavy plate armor. Even if I'm wrong here, this part is already done, so, as they say, so it's written, so it shall be done. I'll post some ideas on light vs heavy armor later

deus said:
I'd like to see parrying in addition to shields.

Yeah, there is parrying. Different weapons come with different traits modifying your Parry skill.

suibhne said:
Feinting of some sort should be in, certainly

Feinting doesn't go very well with the AP system. Assuming that you have 2 attacks per turn, would you be willing to sacrifice one on a fake attack to gain an advantage on the next one?

And I always like to have an option between high-DEX/low-armor and high-STR/heavy-armor approaches to melee combat

You will have such an option. You can play as a lightly armored fighter and be as good or better than a heavy fighter. Inspired by that Fallout leather jacket that looked so damn good. And no, it won't be like in MW where high level light armor was basically a heavy armor in disguise.

Given enough time, a character with a high perception or search skill might even be able to recover 100% of all arrowheads.

Sounds like a good solution. I have both Per and Search, so that's what should determine the recovery rate.

Quigs said:
Weapons that do more damage depending on the opponent, like morningstars doing more damage against opponents wearing ring mail.

Specific weapons vs specific armors won't be in the game.

The ability to push with weapons, both to push the enemy back, and to push yourself away.

No pushing either.

Interrupt evade. If a spearman stands on open ground with interrupt activated, I dont want my swordsman to walk straight into his jabbing.

Well, that's how it works. If you want to get up close and personal with a spearman, you'd have to get past the spear first. Of course, you don't have to get close, you can pull Indiana Jones and shoot him (with your crossbow). Your choice.

Extra attacks per round engaged with the same enemy. The first time engaged in combat, so much is unknown, like fighting styles, speed, finesse. The longer engaged, the more is known, and the more that can be done.

Nope again. APs determine everything. The only free attacks you can get are the interrupt ones.

Quigs · Jan 4, 2005

If thats the case with the spearman on interrupt, then its like giving him a free attack, that cant really be defended against. Its going to be a long boring stalemate between the spearman on interrupt, and the swordsman on defend.

Vault Dweller · Jan 5, 2005

Quigs said:
If thats the case with the spearman on interrupt, then its like giving him a free attack, that cant really be defended against.

First of all, that's why spears were invented, to give an advantage when an enemy approaches you, to be able to hit an enemy way before he can hit you. Second, you can defend yourself against such an attack just like you defend yourself against all other attacks (passive defense, obviously: dodge, parry, block, whichever is the highest). Third, like I said, you don't have to get close, you can use ranged weapons, and forcing the spearman to advance, and thus to lose his interrupt attack, or to switch to ranged weapons, or just throw his spear at you.

Eclecticist · Jan 5, 2005

What is your approach on dual-wielding?

Vault Dweller · Jan 5, 2005

Simple. You get 4-10 APs per turn depending on your Dex. What and how you spend them is up to you. You can equip whatever you want in the hand slots and switch between them as easy as it was in Fallout. If you have 8 APs, for example, you can attack once with a long sword ( 5 APs) and once with a dagger (3 APs), or twice with a short sword (4 APs). You get the idea.

There is no simultaneous attacking using both equipped items, if that's what you are asking.

Quigs · Jan 5, 2005

So really, there is no dual wielding at all?

A person wielding a single short sword would have the same exact chance of damaging an opponent as someone who wielded two, and attacked once with both?

Eclecticist · Jan 5, 2005

Anyway, what's the deal with this game VD?

I.e. what is it called, why are you doing it, is it just you in the team, etc etc. I am completely in the dark.

Vault Dweller · Jan 5, 2005

Quigs said:
So really, there is no dual wielding at all?

That's what it says above.

A person wielding a single short sword would have the same exact chance of damaging an opponent as someone who wielded two, and attacked once with both?

Yep.

Eclecticist said:
Anyway, what's the deal with this game VD?

I.e. what is it called, why are you doing it, is it just you in the team, etc etc. I am completely in the dark.

Age of Decadence; because I always wanted to; 4 people team.

Hajo · Jan 5, 2005

One more idea for melee combat:

Consider wepaons weight/speed and opponets size/speed in "chance to hit" calculation. E.g. hitting a small, fast creature with a maul is very difficult, yet devastating if you hit. Lighter/faster wepons are better to fight fast/small creatures.

Will you have a fly swatter to fight those giant moskitoes from hell?

Sol Invictus · Jan 5, 2005

Diablo 2 had a similar game mechanic, by implementing damage types like physical damage, and a variety of elements. It was almost impossible to fight the "Itchies" swarms in Act 2 with a physical weapon like a bow, or a sword, but magic or elemental attacks would deal with them most efficiently.

I think that on top of all the things that have been said, I'd also like to add how much I'd like to see special moves performed by melee classes, such as a chance to cleave the next target if it is directly adjacent, roundhouse/whirlwind attacks, double/triple/quadruple combo strikes and stunning blows. Charge would be good, too - but that's been mentioned.

Quigs · Jan 5, 2005

How about a range of items that can be carried on a person without going into inventory? IT was kind of goofy how you could only wield two at a time in fallout, considering you could wield both a minigun and a rocket launcher without going into your inventory, but only two knives at a time.

suibhne · Jan 5, 2005

Re:

Vault Dweller said:
suibhne said:

Feinting of some sort should be in, certainly

Click to expand...

Feinting doesn't go very well with the AP system. Assuming that you have 2 attacks per turn, would you be willing to sacrifice one on a fake attack to gain an advantage on the next one?

Absolutely, though that risks making Feint basiclally equivalent to any other "concentrate all APs into a single more effective attack" maneuver. Feinting could be differentiated either by being tailored to certain character types (high-DEX, maybe?) which don't have access to other attacks in that class and/or by causing effects which aren't caused by other full-round attacks. Maybe a successful Feint could negate the opponent's Dodge (though obviously not DR and probably not deflection - I can't remember how you break it down) for the next attack, for example.

Sovy Kurosei · Jan 6, 2005

I'm not sure if this has been addressed already, but what are you going to do with left over action points? Will it be akin to Fallout by diverting those action points to armour class? Or can you carry over action points from your previous turn to your next turn? Or do you have some other system in place?

Vault Dweller · Jan 6, 2005

Sovy Kurosei said:
I'm not sure if this has been addressed already, but what are you going to do with left over action points? Will it be akin to Fallout by diverting those action points to armour class? Or can you carry over action points from your previous turn to your next turn? Or do you have some other system in place?

Haven't decided yet (means that currently unused APs are wasted). That's how it will probably stay.

suibhne said:
Maybe a successful Feint could negate the opponent's Dodge (though obviously not DR and probably not deflection - I can't remember how you break it down) for the next attack, for example.

That's actually a good idea since some of those high-Dodge buggers are hard to hit (that;s what weighted nets were for). Feint would offer another way of handling them.

Quigs said:
How about a range of items that can be carried on a person without going into inventory? IT was kind of goofy how you could only wield two at a time in fallout, considering you could wield both a minigun and a rocket launcher without going into your inventory, but only two knives at a time.

Currently, we have 10 slots: helmet, armor, necklace, cloak, 2 hand slots (weapons/shield, items), 2 rings, 2 belt bags.

Sol Invictus · Jan 6, 2005

Left over action points should add to your character's AC and/or dodge rate. Or, how about a point break system that's based on accumulated leftover action points?

suibhne · Jan 6, 2005

Vault Dweller said:
suibhne said:

Maybe a successful Feint could negate the opponent's Dodge (though obviously not DR and probably not deflection - I can't remember how you break it down) for the next attack, for example.

Click to expand...

That's actually a good idea since some of those high-Dodge buggers are hard to hit (that;s what weighted nets were for). Feint would offer another way of handling them.

Cool. And it's logical, since a successful Feint could basically provoke your opponent into a relatively predictable range of responses.

Fresh · Jan 10, 2005

Its late over here so forgive me for skimming, but my single most wanted feature affecting tactics would be a complex system for determining the effects of any attack. A system where u target and do damage to specific bodyparts/areas. A system where different weapons do diff kind of damage. All sorts of factors could impact the final effect.

This way u would suffer a host of different immediate effects given the type of damage dealt, ranging from light wound in ones arm= negative modifier on ones melee-skills.. to massive wound in head= blindness OR smashed windpipe or similar devastating effect.

This is kinda like the criticals/non-fixable damage dealt in FO, but fully implemented and of course much more differentiated. Players of various PnP-RPGs should know what im talking bout.

I sooo loathe the all to usual "hitpoints-pool" you're supposed to bring down to zero with blows only differing in how many hitpoints u "score". This is sooo far from any kind of credibility. And its so damn boring, cuz either you're/the enemy's "fully functionable" and swinging away .. or you're Dead. No middleground. Its this area between tiptop shape and corpse-like that could be massively fun to battle it out in.

Stark · Jan 10, 2005

!HyPeRbOy! said:
I sooo loathe the all to usual "hitpoints-pool" you're supposed to bring down to zero with blows only differing in how many hitpoints u "score". This is sooo far from any kind of credibility. And its so damn boring, cuz either you're/the enemy's "fully functionable" and swinging away .. or you're Dead. No middleground. Its this area between tiptop shape and corpse-like that could be massively fun to battle it out in.

do you mean options such as crippling of arms and legs? while sound in theory, it might just convince most people to reload...and reload and reload. it'll be almost impossible to complete a rpg game with a crippled PC. Well, unless there's a doctor skill, or someway to restore back the limbs.

VD,

for your first game you might want to keep the combat complexity at a more modest level (but I'm sure you've had that considered.

). while alot of the ideas thrown here are great, many might be too distracting for a story driven rpg (which i assume is what you're making...) a pure dungeon roaming game might need all the complex battle mechanics but a more story driven rpg might not.

Hajo · Jan 10, 2005

Stark said:
do you mean options such as crippling of arms and legs? while sound in theory, it might just convince most people to reload...and reload and reload. it'll be almost impossible to complete a rpg game with a crippled PC. Well, unless there's a doctor skill, or someway to restore back the limbs.

Cyber/Biotech is out, due to the setting. Maybe the wizards can help? Peg legs, and metal hooks are your friends ...

Some games, notably most roguelikes, forbid free save-reload. The game state is saved on exit only, and laoded on start. All effects can be made permanent this way. It could be an option.

Fresh · Jan 10, 2005

Stark said:
!HyPeRbOy! said:

I sooo loathe the all to usual "hitpoints-pool" you're supposed to bring down to zero with blows only differing in how many hitpoints u "score". This is sooo far from any kind of credibility. And its so damn boring, cuz either you're/the enemy's "fully functionable" and swinging away .. or you're Dead. No middleground. Its this area between tiptop shape and corpse-like that could be massively fun to battle it out in.

Click to expand...

do you mean options such as crippling of arms and legs? while sound in theory, it might just convince most people to reload...and reload and reload. it'll be almost impossible to complete a rpg game with a crippled PC. Well, unless there's a doctor skill, or someway to restore back the limbs.

Im talking about crippling of arms, legs etc on a temporary basis, not permanent, affecting the course of the battle in a direct way. In the same way u can heal your hitpoints via a stimpack/potion u could heal em broken limbs/damaged body functions once the battle is over, (or perhaps even during battle?)

I want to see the Concept of Functionability introduced into the tactical realm of the RPG-game. Ie besides/instead of keeping track of only ONE parameter (total amounts of generic hitpoints) you need to think about the functionability and health of various bodyparts. This way every damage dealt would have consequences affecting tactics in the battle. (There could also be a total amount of "blood-points" representing your char bleeding)

The effects would range from
minor damage on limb/area= minor negative modifiers on relevant skill (ie decreased funktionability) (-1 on initative or on attack skill or whatever depending on the particular area hit)
to
moderate damage= moderate effects
to
massive damage=critical effects, ie total disfunctionability of the particular bodypart - immobility if legs are damaged, arms unusable for combat, if head then loss of conciousness/blindness, etc.

Aint it just crap in most RPGS that any combatant could have lost 90% of his hitpoints and still be showing no effects from it? Picture some1 in that condition, there should be all sorts of disFunctionability.

Tactics in TB combat

Novice

Erudite

Liturgist

Erudite

Magister

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Magister

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Liturgist

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Magister

Liturgist

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Liturgist

Erudite

Magister

Erudite

Erudite

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Erudite

Erudite

Erudite

Liturgist

Liturgist

Erudite