Preview A Wight By Any Other Name....

Lesifoere · Jun 29, 2009

Well dicks, I looked away one day and next the thread's exploded into a lot of text. Sorry, going to reply to some posts already a page or two past:

Alex said:
It isn't mandatory, but why should they shy away from including undead creatures? There are a lot of interesting conflicts one could do with the concept, even if they are always hostile creatures. By breaking the barrier between life and death, the concept of undeath creates many engrossing questions that can be answered though play, such as the amount of humanity found in the new creatures, the conflict (if there is one) between the old and the new self of the deceased (Bioware's version actually implies an even messier conflict here, with the possessing demon influencing, but not controlling, the end result), the new necessities that this condition brings to the creatures, etc.

You might as well ask "why shy away from ancient arising evil and save-the-world plots?" It's possible to use old tropes and do them well in interesting ways, but as Bioware has proven time and again, they can't. Even in Jade Empire, which at least takes place in fantasy that's not pseudo-medieval Europe, the plot is identical to their other games, the characters are recycled. If you keep insisting "but what's wrong with familiar tropes?" what you're mostly doing is excusing and encouraging mediocrity, and saying that you will lap that shit right up because hey, there's no originality anymore and not every game needs to be strikingly creative, right? Result: no game is imaginative and all fantasy RPGs are identical.

And as VD said: most RPGs are not fantasy, they're mass-produced clones. There is no sense of wonder--you've seen it all before, it's rehashed in exactly the same way as before, you discover nothing, marvel at nothing. Compare to, for example, what I've seen of Icepick Lodge's Tension. Not an RPG (I'm not even sure what genre it really is--survival/adventure?) and it's not been translated, but even just the trailer put me in awe. It's so fucking weird. Everything in its environment looks so surreal and haunting from the architecture to those weird trees, the monsters are grotesquely beautiful, and I'd kill babies to play it in a language I can comprehend. Or learn Russian. Think of when you played PS:T the first time.

Fantasy should astound and excite. Bioware's Dragonlance rip-offs don't. Hell, medieval writers wrote armored knights going into enchanted forests and slaying dragons with more pizazz, humor and a better-honed sense of irony. In fact, Chaucer was parodying the tropes Bioware's employing in all seriousness by the fourteenth century. That is how stale they are.

circ · Jun 29, 2009

Oh lawdy. We can't think of anything else to pull out than commentary about someone's measure of maturity? Like you've been doing for about 5 pages now. Shit, what are you, 15 with a crush on some anime character?

I think you're starting to step into MLMarkland territory, so I'll leave you to your meme, erm, lack of maturity spamming.

circ · Jun 29, 2009

Lesifoere said:
That is how stale they are.

Stale? STALE?!! Jesus, you just can't see the bigger picture can you? Do you know how much time went into writing the prose that is Dragon Age? I bet you hate shoulderpads too. Oh and seductive vixens in skimpy clothing.

Lesifoere · Jun 29, 2009

I recall they hired some linguist with a PhD to do the gibberish pseudo-Chinese language ("Tho Fan"?) in Jade Empire. And the hours and hours they claimed to have invested in Mass Effect's very extensive, very original lore.

Ah, Bioware. Maybe they have Tolkien scholars (hahaha Tolkien scholars) working on DA too?

Naked Ninja · Jun 29, 2009

Sorry lezzie, that is exaggerating a bit. It's perfectly possible to create an interesting story while making use of familiar tropes, so long as it isn't all familiar tropes. The Witcher is a good example, few of the elements are novel, it's just an interesting spin.

You can perfectly well have a good game, story or setting that incorporates a number of familiar concepts into the pattern, such as belligerant undead. Saying "well, if they include one familiar idea, why wouldn't they include ONLY familiar ideas!" is a simple-minded argument. Why not argue that if they include swords then they simply cannot have a good story or setting? Where does that silly argument end?

FeelTheRads · Jun 29, 2009

Lonely Vazdru said:
Kangaxx is not a lich, you stupid sectoïd. It's a demilich.

Use the right word for chrissake, it has become important here.

As opposed to using new names for old things to pretend it's innovation? Thank you, I'd rather stick with the "right word".

FeelTheRads · Jun 29, 2009

Jesus, Naked Ninja is a fucking dumbshit.

The point is, dear dumbshit, that supposedly the lore in DA was so elaborately worked on, but instead all that we see is the same old shit with a different name.
Show me the interesting spins, if you'd please?

denizsi · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
@ Denizsi : I is no longer be interesteddedy in this con-ver-station. Meesa got goodder thingies to doosa

Naked Ninja said:
Woah, what a come back. You totally disputed every single one of his arguments with that. Dude.

Click to expand...

I is no longer be interesteddedy in this con-ver-station. Meesa got goodder thingies to doosa

Fixed.

Naked Ninja · Jun 29, 2009

I marvel at your cutting wit, Denizsi.

Hobo Elf · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
It takes a really immature human being to confuse basic courtesy with "kissing ass". Sadly, you are hardly the only such person here.

This has always been a slight pet peeve of mine. Every time a dev posts on a forum, it is followed with tons of people thanking him for taking the time to post, and then adressing them as Mr.. Common courtesy for the divine master race who develope games, but none for the fellow posters, eh? Perhaps we should all applaude and thank each other for every post we make, and then adress us as 'Sir'. No? Double standard much? It is kissing ass, there is no point in denying it.

P.S: I'm not saying that you, Naked Ninja, are like this. Just that there are always the sad and depraved fans who can only get through the day when their messiah graces them with their godly presence.

Naked Ninja · Jun 29, 2009

@ Hobo : I don't advocate ass kissing, merely basic courtesy. Generally when a dev of a particular studio comes online they are treated to a barrage of hate for every sin posters think the entire dev studio has performed, ever.

When someone takes the time to talk to you about the work they have been involved in, it's simple manners to act in a courteous fashion and discuss as a reasonable, mature human being. They are doing you a something of a favor by sharing their opinions, in the same way as an author discussing their motivations when writing a book is beyond the mere discussion of random people off the street.

Countering everything you disagree with with a stream of bile is completely rediculous, the response of a child or someone with a child-like mentality. These people don't have to share their opinions and if they are continuously attacked then they will simply stop. And, oh look, many of them have simply stopped. Coincidence? I think not.

This isn't hard to understand. If I talk about SoW on a forum and people form a lynch mob, I'm not going to continue talking about it. Mature discussion will get a response, immature poo-flinging gets an ignore. People around here hold up their poop covered hands as a badge of honor. It isn't.

FeelTheRads · Jun 29, 2009

No no, but Naikid Ninjah is teh devepah now. And developah have this awesome power which they can use to win arguments by merely being there and being sarcastic while completely avoiding to make a point.

Seriously, Ninja the Naked, I see you're trying to copy VD, but it doesn't works for you.

Btw, can't wait for Scars of War. Will it feature innovative lore like Ferocious Rodents and Horrible Bones?

Fat Dragon · Jun 29, 2009

Better watch your back, Naked Ninja, there seem to be a lot of hardboiled motherfuckers in this thread. They like to take weak potshots at SoW and doesn't afraid of anything.

Naked Ninja · Jun 29, 2009

Don't forget their powerful Spells of Reason. I'm quivering in fear, seriously.

Rosh · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
@Hobo (snip rest)

It's usually little more than some bullshit PR or a pity party.

Yes, Aliens RPG might have been "teh awesum", but from a historical perspective, it's Obsidian business as usual while the games they do release are half-finished and half-ass. I'll show my hand and say that was my real reason in this, to drown out the pity party before it went too far.

Rosh is devious, but Rosh is also an asshole, so I cut the cake with a stream of bitter old school urine. If they wanted to go into the pity party, they could do it elsewhere, as the ad nauseum "Oh, no! BIS/Obsidian had an awesome project canceled again!" parade gets pretty fucking old as it has over the last ten years. It was old after the third time, now it's simply a matter of finding out exactly why each project was shitcanned unless they simply don't have the attention span anymore. It is like a really bad PR stunt to get the fans to buy their SLAM DUNK! games, in the long misguided belief akin to Interplay's: "If people buy F

OS, then that will give Interplay enough money to have BIS make Fallout 3." while at the same time stupid shit was regularly SLAM DUNK!ed into the audience toilet bowl. It is like a carrot waved in front of the audience's nose to keep them going, and until they deliver, I don't see why they should be entertained. Shut the fuck up and get back to work! Do some decent fucking work this time! Stop blowing smoke up our asses!

The Codex really doesn't give a shit about developer feelings; even Tim Cain has been Tubgirled and more, and took it in stride. Why not, he's a big boy, and could take the grumbles of how his work was buggy. He even accepts that his design doesn't suit everyone.

The Codex also isn't a site that is going to compete for a developer's attention and bow to them as if the developer were their personal Corporate Master. A developer looks at a site full of critics, then at the happy field of waiting verbal blowjobs of their own forums or on a media news site, and guess what will happen? Or it could be company PR policy, and as proven with Bethesda, PR calls the shots.

The developers might still read the site, but not post. That's okay, because most don't ever post much of any worth. Look at how dead RPG Design has been, because the topics have been discussed mostly to death, to the point where a developer should be embarrassed to be present on a forum where the forumites try harder to think about game mechanics than the developer did on their latest shovelware title.

This has been the Codex way since 2002.

It is now 2009.

It is a little too late to be a pussy.

thesheeep · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
@ Hobo : I don't advocate ass kissing, merely basic courtesy. Generally when a dev of a particular studio comes online they are treated to a barrage of hate for every sin posters think the entire dev studio has performed, ever.

When someone takes the time to talk to you about the work they have been involved in, it's simple manners to act in a courteous fashion and discuss as a reasonable, mature human being. They are doing you a something of a favor by sharing their opinions, in the same way as an author discussing their motivations when writing a book is beyond the mere discussion of random people off the street.

Countering everything you disagree with with a stream of bile is completely rediculous, the response of a child or someone with a child-like mentality. These people don't have to share their opinions and if they are continuously attacked then they will simply stop. And, oh look, many of them have simply stopped. Coincidence? I think not.

This isn't hard to understand. If I talk about SoW on a forum and people form a lynch mob, I'm not going to continue talking about it. Mature discussion will get a response, immature poo-flinging gets an ignore. People around here hold up their poop covered hands as a badge of honor. It isn't.

You are completely right, but...

THIS .... IS .....

Naked Ninja · Jun 29, 2009

Rosh is devious, but Rosh is also an asshole

Rosh has an inflated sense of his own cleverness.

The Codex also isn't a site that is going to compete for a developer's attention and bow to them as if the developer were their personal Corporate Master.

Like I said, it takes a mental child to confuse courtesy with ass kissing.

Rosh · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
Rosh is devious, but Rosh is also an asshole

Click to expand...

Rosh has an inflated sense of his own cleverness.

And Naked Ninja is a whiny little cunt.

Like I said, it takes a mental child to confuse courtesy with ass kissing.

Courtesy must be earned after a developer just shit out yet another binary turd and wants to lie to you about their next awesome title of the same.

My due condolences if it's taken you this long to figure this out.

Naked Ninja · Jun 29, 2009

Courtesy must be earned after a developer just shit out yet another binary turd and wants to lie to you about their next awesome title of the same.

So Anthony was "lying to you" when he took a moment to discuss some of the stuff about the canned Aliens RPG and you spent ages arguing what "stealth" was? :roll:

kris · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
Sorry lezzie, that is exaggerating a bit. It's perfectly possible to create an interesting story while making use of familiar tropes, so long as it isn't all familiar tropes. The Witcher is a good example, few of the elements are novel, it's just an interesting spin.

I think hers and VDs argument wouldn't exactly paint a bright light on Twitcher either. As they mostly talk about "wonder" and fantasy being about new things. like...

- A star falling from the sky being a woman.
- Humans are reborn in 4 cycles, cat, dog, molerat and human.
- Houses are built from a material much lighter than air and needs to be attached to the ground.
- Ghosts can only hurt you if you believe in them.
- Land is moving around. Looks different every time it is visited.

Rosh · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
So Anthony was "lying to you" when he took a moment to discuss some of the stuff about the canned Aliens RPG and you spent ages arguing what "stealth" was?

Nah, I just drowned out any possibility of that before all the sobbing from the Obsidian fanboys started. "But we plan on using a lot of these features for the games we've currently got in development." is a recurring theme of these pity parties, and we've seen where it leads to with Obsidian's own IP that is essentially a re-packaged Ass Effect with even more dumbing down.

AP.

But please, keep on crying if it makes you feel any better. Tears make the best lubricant. I have more important things to do than to coddle the slow of learning, now that my primary goal was accomplished. Pity party on these forums crashed.

Naked Ninja · Jun 29, 2009

So your retarded argument was merely a diversion? Devious indeed! :lol:

Collywobbles · Jun 29, 2009

Naked Ninja said:
So your retarded argument was merely a diversion? Devious indeed!

I don't know what this topic is about but your fucking stupid. LOL!

skyway · Jun 29, 2009

skyway · Jun 29, 2009

no -kc

Preview A Wight By Any Other Name....

Liturgist

Arcane

Arcane

Liturgist

Arbiter

Arcane

Arcane

Arcane

Arbiter

Arcane

Arbiter

Arcane

Arbiter

Arbiter

Erudite

Arcane

Arbiter

Erudite

Arbiter

Arcane

Erudite

Arbiter

Novice

Educated

Educated