The style and atmosphere

Style or lack thereof was one of the few issues highlighted in the graphics discussion and it bothers me a lot more than the shadows problem. In other words, I need some help.

Here is the story. The town overall looks post-apocalyptic enough, but some areas of the town look like they could belong to any generic fantasy game (same 4 screens you've seen before)

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/3a.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/4a.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/5a.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/6a.jpg

My justification was that these buildings were well maintained and the war didn't destroy the world completely, so it kinda makes sense that a powerful organization like the Imperial Guards would be able to maintain its barracks properly. I mean, we are not talking about anything unreasonable here, but about basic masonry and carpentry, which isn't something that people would suddenly forget how to do.

However, since the style and the atmosphere shown in those 4 screens were criticized, I'd like to have a separate discussion and see what could be done to improve them. I have some ideas, of course, and we have already started working on some tweaks, but I'd like to see what you guys have to say.

So, what needs to be tweaked / added / removed, and most importantly, why. To avoid generic responses, let's talk about these 4 screens only. Thanks in advance.

There's nothing to say that the pre-war architecture had to look like generic fantasy/roman architecture.
Even though making weird-looking buildings is a cheap way to create an interesting world, I think it does its job preety well. Especially if it's backed up by interesting text (like the comment in the barracks screen).

Just a thought...the interiors of all the buildings have walls that are just as bright as those of the buildings' exteriors. If it can be changed, the interiors should be darker than outside.
Also, adding more variation in the ground texture would probably help. Just placing clutter near the walls or maybe a slightly raised ground along the walls (to make the walls look like they're in the ground, not on top of it) could help.

My problem isn't that it doesn't look post-apocalyptic, because not every town will look that way. My main issue is that the buildings just don't look used, and too clean.

Blacksmith

Take for example the blacksmith. If he were to use his furnace that often to produce the amount of swords on display, one would think that there would at least be some char marks around and it'd basically be pretty dirty with soot and debris strewn about. Most importantly, the fur or cloth overhead would be very dirty due to the same thing. Also, I'd believe he'd have a much better way to display his wares. Either he'd build a much better looking display himself or have a carpenter do one for him. Personally, I'd believe he'd sell his wares indoors, or at least in a "blacksmith forge" in another building, since most smiths wouldn't want the chance to burn down their house and their workshop at the same time if it were to occur.

Barracks

The Barracks, just looks like a lot of wasted space. Why would they build such a wide open building if it weren't for a certain purpose? To me, the barracks should have a seperate room for practicing on the dummies, because why would you want a guy practicing archery or anything else merely five feet away from your post? I don't see why the barracks have to have a dirt floor as well. They'd most likely used at least some sort of stone.

My advice would to have the entire building segmented into rooms. One being the practice area, another being the living chambers with all types of cots and armory (basically where they sleep and keep their weapons/armor close) and then have the defendable positions such as the ballista placements. The ballistas and archery positions are usually seperate from other placements due to them being a heavy target to the enemy and also so that they'd be a harder position to take if there were a lapse in defense. Maybe have a few rooms where they're training new recruits in the back? They could have their own personal blacksmith on the grounds as well as I doubt the one blacksmith in town could produce enough supplies for the entire military in that town. have a medical post as well, as they'd need it upon a seige of any kind, and these are usually found on military grounds.

To me, the barracks is the biggest disappointment. It just doesn't look very functional and seems to be a huge waste of a lot of space.

Mage home

This is easily the best build structure, funcionally and aesthetically. Here you have a nice door frame (usually forgotten), a work station that serves a function and looks used, places for supplies and generally nice design touches such as the rug. My main complaint about this scene is where the NPC is placed. If I were to walk into a man's house usually he'd be sitting somewhere, where this isn't the case. He'd stand to greet me and he might sit back down. As I can't see the entire home, I must ask about bathroom arrangements and if he has a stove or anything such as that in his house as well. These are all little details that flesh out an interior very well.

I didn't get to the graphic thread yet, but everything looks fine to me. If you wanted some really unique towns, buildings than you should've went sci fi with your first game.

I mean, your stuff doesn't look all doomy biblical apocalypse, but if you're doing something along the lines of how Europe regressed during the Dark Ages than I'm sure they were still building sturdy wooden houses and simple stone structures.

I'd add some beds to the barracks since ya know... that's where they sleep

Lumpy said:

There's nothing to say that the pre-war architecture had to look like generic fantasy/roman architecture.
Even though making weird-looking buildings is a cheap way to create an interesting world, I think it does its job preety well. Especially if it's backed up by interesting text (like the comment in the barracks screen).

Click to expand...

In general I'm against weird-looking for the sake of weird-looking, but we do have some interesting locations. Don't want to show too much at this point, but to give you an idea, here are some "concepts":

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/001.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/002.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/003.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/004.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/005.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/006.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/007.jpg

golgotha said:

My main issue is that the buildings just don't look used, and too clean.

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Should they look like they are falling apart with dirt everywhere?

...some char marks around...

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Such level of details, I think, is a bit too unreasonable to expect.

I don't see why the barracks have to have a dirt floor as well.

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That's shadows related. As you can see, the blacksmith doesn't cast a shadow on the stone floor.

To me, the barracks is the biggest disappointment. It just doesn't look very functional and seems to be a huge waste of a lot of space.

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The screens showed the outside area. That's the barracks.

I must ask about bathroom arrangements and if he has a stove or anything such as that in his house as well. These are all little details that flesh out an interior very well.

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No bathrooms, no kitchens. Unnecessary details, imo.

It could use some "grungification", the term Epic always uses to describe their process of making UT2k7 levels more believably dirty, scarred, damaged, etc.

A few more random objects (tables, bookshelves, etc.) would be nice. Wall hangings as well. Outside, rocks and vegetation here and there would be nice as long as it's logical; even well-travelled roads will have some grass, weeds, etc., and rocks will always be around (where they've been moved if not where they started out :wink: ).

In order, 3a: Do the guards do nothing except stand around looking at each other? ("It seemed a bit daft me having to guard him when he's a guard.") There are no tables, chairs, cupboards, etc., nor any supplies (barrels, boxes) other than weapons.

4a: The awning or w/e looks very rough, as others have mentioned. Otherwise I like this scene. I'd only add some rocks around the house and some grass/etc. beyond the house, out in the dirt.

5a: This indoor scene could use something on the walls, especialy considering how rico that rug appears to be. A window covering would make sense - maybe indoor shutters on the walls? Lighting could also be darkened a bit for better contrast/saturation. Otherwise looks great to me.

6a: See comments for 3a above.

In general: take another look at Arcanum. The game had a fantastic feeling of postlapsarian style, but different areas had different levels of clutter. Poorer towns really felt poorer, with grass and trash everywhere; many areas of Tarant, by contrast, were much cleaner, but some areas are still identifiably poor or old. Where Arcanum's art failed imo was at depicting opulence or wealth; nothing really felt high-class anywhere in the game. But 90% of the gameworld was done very well, because the range between low-class and middle-class (so to speak).

After looking at your concept art, I'm stoked about seeing those places in the game. The variety looks pretty exciting to me.

Vault Dweller said:

Should they look like they are falling apart with dirt everywhere?

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Not at all. Just giving the outside of the houses some dirty textures (just the same texture with some grunge and dirt added) would give it a less artificial look. Any older building will have that. The way they are now, most of these buildings look brand new. Maybe have a little dust on the floors wouldn't hurt.

Vault Dweller said:

...I mean, we are not talking about anything unreasonable here, but about basic masonry and carpentry, which isn't something that people would suddenly forget how to do.

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Sure, but bear in mind that things don't just get neglected because no-one can do them. They also get neglected when there are much more pressing priorities. The question is whether it makes sense that enough time and effort has gone in to keeping things in good order.
Perhaps it does - I'm not sure.

Also, before any disaster, the likelihood is that there were enough skilled craftsmen / time / money... to maintain all the buildings, but not much more. Ater the fall, most resources would be scarcer (labour, time, money, good tools...), so the overall level of maintenance would almost certainly drop.
I think there should definitely be some buildings which are badly maintained (particularly if some buildings are now deserted).

If some guilds / factions have the power and incentive to keep things well maintained, then that's reasonable. Good maintenance could well be a status symbol precisely because it takes power to keep up in such an environment.

In that regard, I think it's reasonable for many guild buildings to look pretty good, but this should strike the player as something different. He should notice the contrast between the pristine guild buildings, and others in worse states.
The sense of decadence needn't be everywhere - only where it makes sense. Some contrast is good. No-one worried that Vault 13 wasn't in disarray.


On golgotha's comments:
Agreed on the Blacksmith - more dirt would make sense.

Was the barracks built before the fall or afterwards? If before, then there's no need for its construction to seem well suited to its current purpose.

Perhaps the practice room could be separate from the main building, but I think it makes sense to have an uneven floor at least in the practice room. Guards would want to practice under the conditions of battle - not on even stone floors.
However, if you were to separate the training room from the main building, this could be emphasized - most of the building could have stone floor, with the training room left with dirt.

I don't agree with having another blacksmith. How many people are in the town? How often do swords need replacing? Are battles frequent, or is uneasy peace the norm?
Unless they're fighting frequently, or using horses, I don't see why they'd need their own blacksmith.

The interior is pretty good, but could use a few tweaks. Apart from previous comments, I'd say that the room with the NPC inside doesn't fit well with "filled with scrolls, crates, and every imaginable gadget...". If I read that in a book, I'd picture an office full of clutter, a desk piled with writings, and barely enough floor space to get around.

In fact, his room is neat, there aren't many gadgets, and ten scrolls is hardly a shocking amount. I guess you don't have fifty different "useless gadget" models, but I'd rather see large collections of a few object types (e.g. bottles, jars, scrolls, boxes...), than the present situation.

Perhaps it's also a bit too clean. I think you'd do well to throw a lot more dirt around in most areas. In this case, perhaps there should be dust and grime around the base of the walls. It'd make things look less artificial, and be reasonable for a useless-gadget collector.

Vault Dweller said:

In general I'm against weird-looking for the sake of weird-looking, but we do have some interesting locations. Don't want to show too much at this point, but to give you an idea, here are some "concepts":

Click to expand...

What other reason can there be for weird-looking, than for the sake of it? And also, by weird I meant different from typical fantasy.
At it's best, even Oblivion had nice architecture - specifically in Anvil. Also, Planescape: Torment had great architectural style and graphics.
No need for something crazy like Morrowind, but some difference is nice.
Also, those facilities look interesting.

galsiah said:

Also, before any disaster, the likelihood is that there were enough skilled craftsmen / time / money... to maintain all the buildings, but not much more. Ater the fall, most resources would be scarcer (labour, time, money, good tools...), so the overall level of maintenance would almost certainly drop.
I think there should definitely be some buildings which are badly maintained (particularly if some buildings are now deserted).

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This reminds me I read an excellent magazine about the 'decadence' of Rome during the 5th century. There was a long article about how Rome itself changed. Apart from the fact that many people left (from a million to 500,000 or so) Rome itself didn't become poorer.

What happened was that there was a shift in priorities and old public buildings and their functions were neglected in favor of the new - especially the old previously venerated Pagan monuments around the square where the nobility lived which the State stopped maintaining. New centers and communities were created around churches. Also old spaces were transformed. For example a large granary no longer needed to feed a large population became a market place, old monuments became quarry sites within the heart of the city.

In general there was a feeling of improvization and also change or transition. That is not seen in the town you created for AoD. Ignoring the cleanliness it almost looks like it was built yesterday.

I'll see if I can find that magazine.

The first barracks shot looks empty and pointless, a large room but with only a few objects lying in the corners and people standing around looking at nothing.

As already mentioned, the ground deserves more attention. Weeds, paths, puddles, etc.

The lanterns look like 18th century iron-and-glass work.

3a: why does the entrance to the barrack's court look like a prison door? That would be a weak spot for the defenders of the barracks (and it looks rather modern).

4a: the cobbled pavement looks out of place.

5a: I wouldn't use the same texture for the inside of of the walls as for the outside, but some kind of plaster instead. Also, a bookshelf and waist high cabinets along the wall would be a cheap way to make the room look more crowded

xedoc gpr said:

The first barracks shot looks empty and pointless, a large room but with only a few objects lying in the corners and people standing around looking at nothing.

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As you've probably didn't bother to read what's written above, I'll have to repeat what VD said - this is not a room, but barracks' inner yard. Weapon are in the corners for a simple reason - there should be some empty space for training in the center. I don't say that this is a perfect design, but at least that's what we had in mind when worked on this place.
As for the characters "standing around looking at nothing" - don't expect any radiant stuff from them. Basically, they do pretty the same that characters in Fallout did + some extras that we have animations for, + some AoD-specific mechanics.

Stylistically, I hate the menus.

I think a lot of it is that the borders stand out more than the menus themselves do. If the menus were raised a bit they would look more lifelike. They also have colors too indistinct, and too similar to the game's colors. It is not part of the game world, so it should look different from the game world. Tehre should be a clear contrast between the game world and the game controls, with stylistic affectations only accenting this. Right now it is just blah.

As for setting and atmosphere, well, that is something that just has to come to you.

I do think the oriental rug is sort of out of place. The parque flooring straight out of the sims is, as well. So are the wood shingles. Right now, there is no real concept showing through at all and too many things that look like 1970s california housing tracks. How about a thatch roof, or tents, with gubmint buldings that still ahve battlescars on the sides of them which originally had other uses?


The biggest thing IMO is to first create your original society and flush it out and make it realistic and majestic, and THEN create the decadent and decayed version, or apply whatever it is you are trying to go for. If that makes sense. Are you going for grittiness and decay? The name would imply it.

Ok, I said I like the models, but I lied. I like the civilian ones, but that armor is terrible. I can't see a theme for it. Is it an old artifact? if so then it should be either beaten up or else very stylistic and alien compared to the rest of the equipment. Is it new? If so, it should be either something cobbled together from scrap or else something new made of castiron or leather - it's doubtful they are going to be using steel as it is pretty difficult to make and lots of scrap is available presumably.

Also, I think that armor is bringing up a lot of your lighting issues - or issues people are ascribing to lighting. If you play with the saturation and hue a bit on it and perhaps back on some lighting, then I think it will look dramatically better. Right now it looks like a power ranger or something.

Jim Kata said:

I do think the oriental rug is sort of out of place. The parque flooring straight out of the sims is, as well. So are the wood shingles. Right now, there is no real concept showing through at all and too many things that look like 1970s california housing tracks. How about a thatch roof, or tents, with gubmint buldings that still ahve battlescars on the sides of them which originally had other uses?

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If the game is going for a Roman feel, than shingle or tile roofs make more sense than thatch as they were both more common.

Bah said:

Jim Kata said:

I do think the oriental rug is sort of out of place. The parque flooring straight out of the sims is, as well. So are the wood shingles. Right now, there is no real concept showing through at all and too many things that look like 1970s california housing tracks. How about a thatch roof, or tents, with gubmint buldings that still ahve battlescars on the sides of them which originally had other uses?

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If the game is going for a Roman feel, than shingle or tile roofs make more sense than thatch as they were both more common.

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Wooden shingles, though? Also, this is rome after the sack, not rome at its peek.

I think the screens look more post-war than post-apocalyptic. Obviously none of us have ever been in an apocalypse so we're mostly going by stereotypes from movies and games. Maybe I am wrong but the screens give me the impression that we are well into the rebuilding phase of "post-apocalyptic"-- is this correct?

Just two things to remember:

VD said:

Keep in mind that the game isn't based on, but only inspired by the Romans.

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IronTowerWebsite said:

Centuries after the fall of the empire, the world still rests in an uneasy balance

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All the short term adjustment to the fall would be over long ago. If there is decay it'd be due to long term factors, not due to the shock / initial impact of the events.

If there's a good reason for someone to want something repaired and in good working order, it probably would be (presuming the knowledge hasn't been lost). The decay would be in areas that are no longer understood, or have been intentionally left unmaintained over many decades.

galsiah said:

If there's a good reason for someone to want something repaired and in good working order, it probably would be (presuming the knowledge hasn't been lost). The decay would be in areas that are no longer understood, or have been intentionally left unmaintained over many decades.

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Definitely. Either a nuke destroys the building, or the building falls into dis-repair because humans can't live in the radiated areas, or it was outside any noticeable radiated zones and was habitable after the fallout. If someone moved in and had the wherewithal to keep the place mantained, it seems reasonable that not everything has to look decayed.

Vault Dweller said:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/001.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/002.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/003.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/004.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/005.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/006.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/img/007.jpg

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I kinda like these. Except, the dock one bears a strange resembelence to Morrowind

No bathrooms, no kitchens. Unnecessary details, imo.

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I don't know, I'm one for "unnessary" details. The world should feel like a funtioning one, or atleast thats the way I like things.

Should they look like they are falling apart with dirt everywhere?

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No, but it shouldnt feel like disneyland either.

The thing that really stands out to me are the barracks screenshots, and it's that the stone is nearly the same color as the floor. There are these really broad swaths of tan and nothing to break it up, which is probably what gives me the impression that the world is a bit bland. Maybe Imperial banners or insignias on the interiors? Also, something bothers me about this picture, but I can't really put my finger on it. I think I recall you saying that the city is/was rebuilt in stages, hence the different architectural styles, but the patterns of rebuilding seem to be too neat and symmetrical.

And, for what it's worth, I still like the interface.

The only problematic screen to me is this one. There's a lack of contrast between objects and surrounds, and the whole thing looks blast-lit.

So I'd suggest changing the wall colours to a darker, greyish hue so it looks more like slate, and darkening the floorboards. Then dropping the overall lighting level, as it's an interior.

As for exteriors, forgive me, but I haven't caught whether there is varying time-of-day lighting. If there still is, then I think the changes as the day progresses will give enough atmosphere to 'get over the line' as it were - as in this shot:

http://www.garagegames.com/images/ul/23 ... apshot.jpg

However that would be provided the towns have point-source lighting from torches, etc, which they possibly don't(?). So in that case, a reddish tinge at dusk and a bluish one as night falls would probably suffice.

Alright then, I'll give it a try:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/3a.jpg
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/6a.jpg

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The barrack doesn't look like it ever needed to be defended.

The wall and the courtyard are defenses, right? I derive that from the fact that the entrance to the courtyard isn't in line with the outer wall but set back - when attacked the guards can shoot arrows through the windows on the attackers who try to smash the entrance door. All well thought-out. However, the windows seem to be big enough for a NPC to climb through. Some bars could help (I'm not sure about that point though. Are the windows by any chance on the outside smaller than on the inside?). In addition to that some spikes at the top of the wall would give it a more intimidating look - while making the whole thing more versatile (you used just two textures on the wall after all). If the wall isn't there for the purpose of defense then the windows have no function whatsoever - same goes for the wall as such btw.

All in all it's not versatile enough. I said it in the graphics thread and I'm going to say it again: it doesn't look as if it has evolved. Here's what I'm missing:
- a beaten path leading to the barracks
- some greens, some bushes
- ivy and dust covering the outer wall
- some barrels and carts standing outside indicating that some goods are being exchanged with the barrack
- some emblems or banners would add much to atmosphere and style
- torches instead of lanters (just a personal preference...looks more "decadent" IMO)

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/4a.jpg

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I like the clutter but I'm missing the beaten path. Really, when looking at that screen I don't have the impression that this building actually is inside of town. It looks more like a building in the middle of the wasteland. Deriving from the town model I see that it's not far from the barracks - once again well thought-out. But there definitely should be a path leading to the barracks and some paths in general because a smith ought to be a frequently visited craftsman (costumers, suppliers). Looking at screenshot 5a I can see the smithy in the upper right corner. Just on a sidenote: A loremaster living next to a smith? He must love the ambient noise while trying to concentrate on all those historical scrpits.

Well, besides: some ivy covering the wall, more clutter, water in the barrel, a barrel standing ouside at the wall in case the smith gets his water from rain (btw, is there a town well?). And the smith would definitely wear a leather skirt or something for protection. Plus, the cobble-stone pavement could be blackened with soot.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/5a.jpg

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Nothing to complain except, probably, the missing path outside the door .

Good post, thanks. The problem with the path (and overly generic terrain in general) again relates to the engine. We are working on fixing it though.