AoD vignettes & screens

I'm having some problems with vignettes. Presentation problems. So, I need some opinions, help, advice, random thoughts, whatever.

I liked ToEE vignettes. Although they were very short, it was clear that multiple starting points defining characters' backgrounds and motivation is a much better way than more traditional "here you are, here is the ball, run with it" stuff. Anyway, since the AoD world isn't a typical fantasy where you know that elves are good and orcs are bad, properly implemented vignettes can add quite a lot. The question is how to do them right, as there are many examples of good ideas ruined by poor implementation.

So, anyway, for some reasons that I don't remember now, I have chosen one simple story for the vignettes, played from different perspectives for extra flavor. An independent merchant, seeking trading favors from one of the noble houses controlling a small town, arrives into that town, bringing a gift, an ancient map, to the lord of the town. The Merchants Guild quickly orders the assassination, and the merchant is attacked before he has a chance to meet with the lord and present his gift and his case.

Now, the player picks one of the profession when he/she starts the game, which defines his/her position within the gameworld (i.e. a thief starts as a member of the Thieves Guild, bonus to reputation with the thieves, assassins, and one Noble House using thieves to spy on other Houses, penalty with the guards, merchants, etc) and the role in the vignette mini-story. For example, the mercenary is hired to protect the merchant, the loremaster will be called to identify the map, the assassin... well, this one needs no explanation, etc. In the end, one way or another, PC aquires the map, and starts figuring out what to do with it. It makes more sense for a thief, for example, to steal it, among other things, and then try to find a buyer for it, etc.

Problems:

The vignettes, for obvious reasons, are very linear. While you have some degree of freedom where it fits (the mercenary can kill the assassin before or after he kills the merchant, or choose not to fight him at all, while the assassin must kill the merchant to acquire the map, etc), the freedom of movement is limited. For example, in the assassin vignette you start in the Assassins Guild, when the conversation with the guildmaster ends, you are automatically taken to the inn, and you can't leave the inn until you kill the merchant. In other words, you can't leave the vignette and just do whatever you want ( i.e. a thief can't leave town, can't say fuck off and leave the guild; an assassin can't betray the client and let the merchant live, etc). That may create an impression that the game doesn't have much freedom and role-playing, forcing people to do mandatory things, which is the opposite of what the actual gameplay is like.

Of course, I can remove any restrictions and allow exploring the world freely, but that would be an equivalent of leaving the vault without being told to find the waterchip. The waterchip doesn't restrict you, but adds a sense of purpose. Same here.

Anyway, I'm not sure how bad the current railroading setup is, you tell me.

Here are some alternatives:

1. We can always do good ol' "you found a dying merchant who gave you the scroll", etc. It's less interesting though.

2. Start everyone at the inn, courtesy of Section8:

As for restriction of free will, I think the solution is to put the player into a situation where they *must* act, for better or for worse. Start everyone at at the inn, just as things are unfolding, give them the story so far ("I've been hired to protect this guy...yada yada") and provide "insurance" if you have to. If the merc tries to walk out, have another of the inns guards stop him, with force if necessary. The sneaky types could be doing a probationary task, trial contracts, complete with observers. Basically use whatever means necessary to justify the character's inability to directly express their free will in plausible role-play context.

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3. Flashbacks, another Section8's idea:

"Your heart races as you stand over the corpse of Gracius, the merchant. You try to focus, and calm yourself as you watch runnels of flowing blood tentatively feeling their way along the cracks of the floorboards. It's hard to keep your mind in one place, as you experience the headrush of your first sanctioned kill. It seems a long time past now, but your memory wanders back to a moment earlier in the day..."

<flashback to conversation with guildmaster>

"With your blood still up, you give the corpse a quick once over. Partly to make sure he's actually dead, and partly to see if he has anything worth nicking before the thieves come to pick over his worldly belongings. The only thing that qualifies as interesting is a map. Most likely junk, you pocket it with hopes of palming it off to someone naive enough to believe in buried treasures. You're just about to break for freedom when you hear something behind you..."

<game on, the merc just entered the room>

If you can cement the essential outcome (getting the map), then you can have other events that allow a degree of choice, and the player can't fucking whine about being railroaded into going straight to the tavern from the guild, because it's a flashback. <grins>

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I liked the flashback idea, but while it handles the railroading problem, it takes away most of the remaining freedom, in my opinion. It works well for certain vignettes where you may acquire the map quickly, but doesn't work well when the map is given at the end (too much to flashback) and where there are several ways to get it.

Opinions?

Edit: Here are some vignette screenshots to show the info and the differences. Btw, Torque has some font drawing issues, which will deal with later.

Assassin:
Screen 1
Screen 2
Screen 3
Screen 4

Thief:
Screen 5
Screen 6
Screen 7

Loremaster:
Screen 8
Screen 9

"Knight":
Screen 10
Screen 11

Mercenary:
Screen 12

I got tired of sorting and uploading screens, but you've got the idea.

That dialog screens takes up a shit lot of space.

Most people are used to openers in games but best way is to fade credit screens between the events. Credit screens tell everyone that it is the pre-game and gets people in the mood, try and have the same background song fading in and out to tie it in consistently.

At the end you can have a clever line and show a nice title screen either drawn or overlaid on 3D world.

Why not use a little "deus ex machina" to resolve the situation if the player stalls? As an example: A backup asassin could kill the merchant if the player doesn't, gives you the map becasue he is a friend, but reports your failure to the boss (lowering your reputation) if you don't kill HIM as well...

If the mercenary leaves without the map, another NPC will run up behind him " I found this on your masters body - it looks like it was important to him"

etc.
This option would always be less elegant, but presumably only few players will derail this early anyway, and once they have the scroll, I guess they are free to go, right?

Great to have the vignettes btw, I agree that it's a great feature for RPG's.

I like the flashback idea alot. I don't really see what you mean by "too much flashback" though, or why it takes away more freedom. Since all decisions have already been made, can't just you use character intervention to reign in players who don't want to stay on track?

Yeah, if you show people that that's just a prelude, people won't find it restrictive.

I don't find the linearity a problem in the first place. There's a "choice" by virtue of the different professions and this is just a short, introductory piece.

Hm.. I like the Flashback idea.


Another possibility might be a dialogue back at your employer about how your mission went and have the nature and outcome of the mission determined by the responses you give, questions you ask, remarks you make.

The flashback idea is terrible due to it essentially being an information dump and completely sidesteps the issue of linearity. A flashback obviously has to be linear, and because of that, there isn't a good reason not to make the segment playable and linear. GBG's suggestion is a happy medium between allowing freedom and still progressing the story.

Yeah, deus-ex machina I would like the most -- you can do whatever you want, but you won't screw a thing of main story -- what is foreseen to happen, will happen. (Think of it as hand of destiny or smth.)

The opening vignettes in ToEE really didn't do all that much for me. I kinda favor the deus ex machina, too. That's what DM's usually do to unruly PC's. Then again they can respond to character motivations on the fly.

The end point is simply to get said map in player's hand, the means are irrelevant. Locking in choices just reduces freedom. What if I want to be an assassin who never kills anyone, just wants the reputation and is smooth enough to get targets to disappear on their own? For that matter, if this is supposed to be really open-ended, why can't it be possible to skip the map storyline altogether? You can drop hints about the map later or let people jump in the storyline at a later point if it's not too much trouble. If someone's just hard-headed enough to skip your storyline altogether, it's really just their loss, or else they're replaying it for fun after having seen the storyline. You don't have to make the story hook idiot-proof.

Actually, Walks is right. I dont really like the idea of vignettes to sacrifice the freedome of the game. Your dialogue screens I liked very much...before I realised it looks like having chosen the class..one of the few classes. And I allways liked classless gamestyle.

Being assassin that hasnt and wont kill anyone doesnt make sense, but, hey, who are you to judge? For me it would make a lot of sense, and your opinion wouldnt metter there. I am tired of typical, cliche RPG stories. Vampire: BLoodlines -- game which was not that free and nonlinear, even this game allowed me to play character I wanted -- gangrel who hated vampires, never drunk blood, avoided killing, but if needed, used only guns and had higher humanity than most humans around. That was great to pull it off. I kinda expect something from every RPG game I play.

This means vignettes restrict me from doing so. Then, the heck, why do I need them? Fallouts intro was simple and cool -- go out and get chip, no matter what your profession, gender, skills and experience is. Arcanum allowed it as well.

Thus, imo would be better if PC was character that gets this map as an intro and then is free to do anything. No rails, no flashbacks, plain and simple - get the map and start playing.

I agree with the others; I wouldn't really worry about making the opening sequences so restrictive since the player should be given enough hints on what do at the start anyway. If you want, just make the map "wizard-like", in that if you miss it on the first time it will inadvertently try to put itself into your hands i.e. a guild-mate may inspect the scene later and hand the map over to you with instructions to deliver it to your guild master for inspection, a sudden strong gust of wind may blow the map to your feet and you pick it up out of curiosity, or in the more extreme case - waking up in an alley somewhere after a piss-up, and finding some twit has tattooed the map onto your chest.

Human Shield said:

Credit screens tell everyone that it is the pre-game and gets people in the mood...

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It IS a game, but slightly (or not so slightly) restricted.

GhanBuriGhan said:

Why not use a little "deus ex machina" to resolve the situation if the player stalls? ... This option would always be less elegant

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It is less elegant.

TotS said:

Another possibility might be a dialogue back at your employer about how your mission went and have the nature and outcome of the mission determined by the responses you give, questions you ask, remarks you make.

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Then remembering the "briefing" would look awkward and out of place.

deus said:

A flashback obviously has to be linear, and because of that, there isn't a good reason not to make the segment playable and linear.

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My sentiments exactly. A linear gameplay with some choices is better than a linear flashback with no choices.

Kamaz said:

Yeah, deus-ex machina I would like the most -- you can do whatever you want, but you won't screw a thing of main story ...

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Which is why I dislike it. If your actions have no consequences...

before I realised it looks like having chosen the class..one of the few classes. And I allways liked classless gamestyle.

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It's not a class as it doesn't restrict your character development in any way, it's a profession, it's what you did in the gameworld before the game starts.

This means vignettes restrict me from doing so. Then, the heck, why do I need them? Fallouts intro was simple and cool -- go out and get chip, no matter what your profession, gender, skills and experience is.

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Have you ever wondered what your Fallout character did before he drew that straw? Why he had skills in small guns/energy weapons/outdoorsman/gambling/whatever, although he never left the vault? What the life in the vault was like? That's what vignettes do.

Being assassin that hasnt and wont kill anyone doesnt make sense, but, hey, who are you to judge?

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I'm not the one who's judging, the Assassins Guild is.

I am tired of typical, cliche RPG stories

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Me too. What's that gotta do with AoD?

Walks with the Snails said:

What if I want to be an assassin who never kills anyone, just wants the reputation and is smooth enough to get targets to disappear on their own?

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I don't think you'd live long enough, but adding an option to convince the merchant to leave isn't a big deal. However, how plausible such an option would be? It's not some scared guy, it's a guarded merchant who needs to survive one night until he talks to the lord and secures protection. He's more likely to promise you anything and stall for time, not to mention that the guard would make threatening and convincing more complicated, no? Seems like a convoluted option.

if this is supposed to be really open-ended, why can't it be possible to skip the map storyline altogether?

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It would remove the sense of purpose and a reason for many factions to deal with you.

Well, maybe you could make it a "choose your own adventure" prelude with nice drawings (like the great concept art...)? Just an idea for something different - it has obvious drawbacks. But for example it would be clear that it's something separate from the main, freeform game and no one would bitch about lack of freedom (I think).

But deus ex machina doesn't exclude conseqeunces. See my first example. It's actually a nice way to tell the player very early that there ARE in fact consequences for being dumb... And if done right its not that inelegant. But you'll have to make up your mind if you want absolute freedom (which means forget the vignettes) or limit the freedom in one aspect (player gets map) and have vignettes. I'd go for the latter.

Vault Dweller said:

Human Shield said:

Credit screens tell everyone that it is the pre-game and gets people in the mood...

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It IS a game, but slightly (or not so slightly) restricted.

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It is a vignette. It is a brief opener before the main story, the game is about the main story. So treat it like a vignette:

vi·gnette
n.
A decorative design placed at the beginning or end of a book or chapter of a book or along the border of a page.
An unbordered picture, often a portrait, that shades off into the surrounding color at the edges.

A short, usually descriptive literary sketch.
A short scene or incident, as from a movie.

Vignettes need style, it is to absorb people into the setting and gameworld. Most of the popular console games do this already, with credits put in to give it a cinematic style.

Human Shield said:

Vault Dweller said:

Human Shield said:

Credit screens tell everyone that it is the pre-game and gets people in the mood...

Click to expand...

It IS a game, but slightly (or not so slightly) restricted.

Click to expand...

It is a vignette. It is a brief opener before the main story, the game is about the main story.

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Well, games have side-quests too, but they are not treated any differently gameplay-wise. The game starts when you are done generating your character. From that moment on, there should be no interruptions, imo. The only question is how to handle the vignettes properly.

This looks great. A solid idea and it looks like strong execution. There was a degree of checklisting in that dialogue and not much sense that it was a branching tree, but looks sharp.

Vault Dweller said:

Well, games have side-quests too, but they are not treated any differently gameplay-wise. The game starts when you are done generating your character. From that moment on, there should be no interruptions, imo. The only question is how to handle the vignettes properly.

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You don't think a vignette is different from a side-quest? Putting players in a stituation before the start of the main quest where they are locked in is before the main game, you complained that players mite feel restricted.

If you are making a vignette treat it like a vignette or do something else.

Human Shield said:

You don't think a vignette is different from a side-quest? Putting players in a stituation before the start of the main quest ...

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So? In some games the main quest doesn't start right away, that doesn't mean the game doesn't start right away, does it? I want it to be a part of the actual gameplay.

If you are making a vignette treat it like a vignette or do something else.

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Call it something else then. What's in a name?

WouldBeCreator said:

There was a degree of checklisting in that dialogue and not much sense that it was a branching tree

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The purpose of the "guildmaster briefing" was to provide some background information, explain how things work, especially in regard to the player's profession. If you are looking for more "branching" example, here are some links:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=7403
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9616
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9793

VD, this game is gonna be so friggin good when you guys finish it. Good luck!

Thanks, Major.

Major_Blackhart said:

VD, this game is gonna be so friggin good when you guys finish it. Good luck!

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Now, VD, you have your own Hype to live up to. How does it feel?

Actually, it should feel pretty good, cause they'll probably do it right.

Vault Dweller said:

deus said:

A flashback obviously has to be linear, and because of that, there isn't a good reason not to make the segment playable and linear.

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My sentiments exactly. A linear gameplay with some choices is better than a linear flashback with no choices.

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I still don't see the issue. Why shouldn't a flashback have choices? The point of the flashback is that whatever you do, it's what happened in the first place. The restricions only concern decisions which would contradict the result, kinda like dying in PoP: Sands of Time, or Monkey Island 2 for that matter.
I imagined the flashback as a kind of "choose your own adventure" thing as Elwro said, with possible jumping from location to location, and a set ending point. However, there could still be some relevant choices as long as they do not contradict the desired result. You just have to make sure the player doesn't recieve too much specific information before the flashback starts.

I also don't really see a huge difference between the flashback and GBG's "deus ex machina" except in case of the flashback it would rely on the player character intervening on it's own volition, which I don't see as very problematic because it IS his memory, after all. You could even use both.
If someone wants to complain about the whole concept of a playable prelude, the implementation would be secondary. Personally I think it's a cool idea and it's ridiculous to claim that it takes away freedom.