AoD town

Vault Dweller · Feb 7, 2006

Work in progress:

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Your comments and suggestions would be very welcome.

Anyway, it's a small town that used to be a military camp. Before you start pointing at the concept art, yes, other towns look different (each town has a unique look). You've already seen some of the buildings (link and link), here is the entire thing. It's a model, the in-game version would have pathways and trees, but it should give you an idea.

FrancoTAU · Feb 7, 2006

I like the layout and the 3D houses look pretty nifty. The ground is a bit too uniform across the whole town. If the pathways and trees help get rid of the feeling than 2 thumbs up.

callehe · Feb 7, 2006

good looking overall, but I agree that the ground is too homogenous. you should add some primitive roads or beat up tracks, that adds to realism and esthetics.

Elwro · Feb 7, 2006

Looks nice; I'm not sure about the fact that the poor area is closer to the rich area than the medium area is, though. I think things usually evolve naturally so that the rich are as far from the poor as possible. But this could be an exception.

black francis · Feb 7, 2006

Lovely.

Vault Dweller · Feb 7, 2006

Like I said, it's a model, so it's not the ground, but a foundation. There would roads, pathway, grass, trees, dirt, etc.

Vault Dweller · Feb 7, 2006

Elwro said:
Looks nice; I'm not sure about the fact that the poor area is closer to the rich area than the medium area is, though..

I agree, but I thought that placing the rich area closer to the palace would make more sense.

I think things usually evolve naturally so that the rich are as far from the poor as possible. But this could be an exception

Again, I agree, but this is not a naturally evolved town, but a converted military camp.

Whipporowill · Feb 7, 2006

It'd feel more natural if the tent camp was just outside the city, like at one of the wall breaches. Maybe there's a reason it's there, but I can't really see the city guard (or local militia) allowing unzoned housing... :D

Severian Silk · Feb 7, 2006

Vault Dweller said:
Your comments and suggestions would be very welcome.

YOU DIDN'T RESPOND TO MY LAST COMMENT!!!

Vault Dweller · Feb 7, 2006

I didn't say that I would. I said that they are welcome, which isn't the same. Read the fine print. :wink:

Section8 · Feb 7, 2006

[graphics whore]

More variation is needed. Ignoring the ground for now, it's fairly obvious the the rooves all have the same textures applied, and it makes everything look a bit "cookie cut," especially the poor area.

[/graphics whore]

And as far as layout and such is concerned, I'm with Elwro in thinking that the poor are a bit too close to the rich. I think there should be a clear division between them. Even in a jury rigged ex-military camp, the rich would find a way to keep their little corner of the world completely free of the common clods, and have a bottlenecked entry to make it simple for guards to keep unsavoury types out.

And out of curiosity, what's the round tower in the top corner? Does it have some significance (like magic?)

FrancoTAU · Feb 7, 2006

You could go with a gated community to keep out the peasants if you want to keep the current layout in place. The similar houses don't bother me much as i don't think the original military base had much of a variation. I was in the army, all the barracks are cookie cutter style.

The tower looks like an old watch tower that got the shit blown out of it. The aura of destruction is definately a strong point of this town.

Relien · Feb 7, 2006

It seems odd to me that no one repaired the damaged wall near the rich area or even the palace, they should want to be protected more than this. Another situation would be with the poor, because who cares about them, but their wall is ok.

FrancoTAU · Feb 7, 2006

Relien said:
It seems odd to me that no one repaired the damaged wall near the rich area or even the palace, they should want to be protected more than this. Another situation would be with the poor, because who cares about them, but their wall is ok.

Good point. I liked how VD had some mishmash wall thrown in one of the concept art pieces. Seems kind of add that the rich area would have a gaping hole in their defenses unless there is some sort of storyline reason for it happening recently.

spacemoose · Feb 7, 2006

I was expecting more of a Roman city layout - as in broad streets dividing blocks of houses, with smaller alleyways between those houses. But that would require a much larger town than this. Also, it would be nice to have more variation and color in each housing area.

Most importantly - where's the agora? Roman and Greek towns would all have a large open market/gathering place at the center. Most had several of these. The palace and columns are ridiculously large/rich for such a small town, and they are occupying the place where a forum or agora would be.

Trash · Feb 7, 2006

The town looks too clean and small. Anything needing a stone wall should at least contain double the houses. Considering quite a lot of the walls are rubble, I'd say that there could be some ruined/damaged buildings as well. Piles of rock and debris, bare foundations etc may also offer the suggestion of a much larger town that was hit hard and now has lost most of it's buildings.

If the town is a converted military camp why not show some effort being made to do some rudimentary repairs? Put some scaffolds (? not sure about the english word)near a damaged portion of the wall. Create the illusion that they attempt to repair it. How about some wooden palisades at other spots?

The palace is very near a destroyed part of the wall, why not make it look a bit more battered? Scorchemarks, a destroyed portion of it's wall, anything. It will add a bit of atmosphere and realism. Think of the old reichstag pictures after Berlin was taken.

Don't make the streets and houses stand this neatly together. In ancient times most cities (and camps/fortresses etc) just grew around a central place. Make it look a bit more organic and randomn, this looks way too structured (unless thats what you're aiming for because of the ingame world)

Good luck with the game!

Vault Dweller · Feb 8, 2006

Section8 said:
... it's fairly obvious the the rooves all have the same textures applied, and it makes everything look a bit "cookie cut," especially the poor area.

If I'm not mistaken, there are 3 different roof textures, not counting the palace and the merchants guild,

... the rich would find a way to keep their little corner of the world completely free of the common clods, and have a bottlenecked entry to make it simple for guards to keep unsavoury types out.

Alright, we'll make some adjustments.

And out of curiosity, what's the round tower in the top corner? Does it have some significance (like magic?)

Tower providing anti-magic defences (something like SW force shield). Used to be.

Spacemoose said:
I was expecting more of a Roman city layout...

Trash said:
In ancient times most cities (and camps/fortresses etc) just grew around a central place. Make it look a bit more organic and randomn

Again, it's a standard military camp turned into a town. The other towns are more natural, organic, and random.

Anything needing a stone wall should at least contain double the houses...

The problem with more houses in games is that they add nothing exciting, but more walking time. The town looks small, but imagine your character inside, small enough to fit into one of those doorways, and crossing this town, say from the inn to the tavern, is quite a trip. No, we can easily make this town more "realistic" and twice as big, by making real neighbourhoods instead of a 3-building "rich area", but would that be a good idea? Opinions, please.

Considering quite a lot of the walls are rubble, I'd say that there could be some ruined/damaged buildings as well

I'm pretty sure there are broken/damaged houses in the poor area. Take another look.

If the town is a converted military camp why not show some effort being made to do some rudimentary repairs?

Technically, you are right. It's more of a modeling/texturing issue.

The palace and columns are ridiculously large/rich for such a small town, and they are occupying the place where a forum or agora would be.

Good point. So, should we throw the columns out? More opinions on that, please.

Human Shield · Feb 8, 2006

Temples in military forts would mostly be used to encourage troops and not be the most advanced temples/palaces with columns and fountain I would think. Palace is too big for a fort.

Wooden barricades would be good on the ruined areas of the wall.

You should change the palace into a basilica and attach it to a forum. crumpling stone courtyard with food merchants and single story basilica with prayer area converted to the ruler of the town's meeting area with rooms in the back.

With some of the supports knocked out or planked up with wood.

I had a college course on Late Antiquity.

Chefe · Feb 8, 2006

The models look nice.

In my opinion, it's all too neat and square. I know it's an old military camp, but maybe you can have a section that juts off to the side and forms the town in an "L" or "t" shape. Maybe the rich area is built on slightly higher ground (as in a small hill).

Things seem to be way too cluttered in the middle as well. Those columns stick out like a sore thumb, imo. If you're going to have them aligning a path to the palace, the palace should be further back (like in the section I mentioned before). Also, the poor houses should be less uniform and arranged.

The Palace and the Rich Area would definitely not have those huge gaping holes. That's where the poor would stay (possibly allowing them easy access to their farms or something).

One last thing, in this small of an area you might have *too* many houses. The camp may have been able to support hundreds of troops, but prolonged living conditions for normal people would quickly cause an expansion outside city walls. There's no room for all those people to breathe.

Oh and, now that I think about it, how did a nice palace and a bunch of rich people end up in an old, dirty, and decaying ex-military camp? Maybe the palace could have been the former church for the camp that the local leaders converted into a palace because it was the biggest building (it should also be more run-down, or have active renovations going on). The rich people, I think, should just be slightly more wealthy but much more haughty in personality. They're living in an ex-military camp. They're not exactly rich, but more well-off.

Anyways, just my 2 cents. Thought I might as well put my opinion in here. Everything you've done with this game so far has really sparked my interest.

By the way, when I looked at this, "Alamo" immediately jumped into my mind... just so you know where I'm coming from.

Greatatlantic · Feb 8, 2006

It looks far to structured to be a normal town. Throw in some chaos, misalign the houses, throw a poor house into the "middle" neighborhood, etc. Right now, it looks like a military academy. I don't know what sort of gameworld your making, but considering your working title is Age of Decadence I'd imagine there would be quite a gap between rich and poor. I'd loose the "middle section" and just make hovels with the occasional nicer wooden structure which serves as the house and workshop for a tradesmen.

EDIT: And does it make any sense of the barracks to be on the outside of the walls? I imagine that this is a time of peace, but still. Who in their right mind builds a barracks outside of the walls. Just a thought.

Bidjou · Feb 8, 2006

The problem with more houses in games is that they add nothing exciting, but more walking time. The town looks small, but imagine your character inside, small enough to fit into one of those doorways, and crossing this town, say from the inn to the tavern, is quite a trip. No, we can easily make this town more "realistic" and twice as big, by making real neighbourhoods instead of a 3-building "rich area", but would that be a good idea? Opinions, please.

It looks like it's the kind of mistakes that doomed the metalheart project ,too much of a bag of ideas without considering the gameplay part,so I agree with :

The problem with more houses in games is that they add nothing exciting, but more walking time.

So just use a textual descriptions or a pictural description like the screens your using like an introduction in the threat http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10674 is the better option to show the parts were nothing happens

Edited to say : I just love when ,the time you post a reply theres two or three meaningfull reponses made at the same time :wink:

Trash · Feb 8, 2006

The problem with more houses in games is that they add nothing exciting, but more walking time. The town looks small, but imagine your character inside, small enough to fit into one of those doorways, and crossing this town, say from the inn to the tavern, is quite a trip. No, we can easily make this town more "realistic" and twice as big, by making real neighbourhoods instead of a 3-building "rich area", but would that be a good idea? Opinions, please.

It sure would. My point was however that you could easily make it look like this was once a large site by adding more ruined buildings, rubble, lone walls, etc. Just the illusion that this once was a busy place is enough.

Again, it's a standard military camp turned into a town. The other towns are more natural, organic, and random.

Neat, but the way this place is defined in easily recognisable neighbourhoods is a bit odd. You've ever been to really old places? Jerusalem, Acre, Rome, etc are all a lot more randomn, without the clear boundaries that this place has. Even the old fortresses and camps look a lot more thrown together than this.

I'm pretty sure there are broken/damaged houses in the poor area. Take another look.

Oh, I did.

But does this mean these neat looking buildings are long since repaired? That city was seemingly hit by one big mother of a disaster, if the walls are crap, why should most buildings look peachy? If you want the richer buildings fixed, you can easily do this with the textures. Make it look as if some areas are refurbished or repaired and you get a much more immersive view of a place that's trying to get back to it's feet.

Technically, you are right. It's more of a modeling/texturing issue.

So put some piles of rubble/stones/building materials with tools and stuff near them. Have some npc's around that claim to be repairing the breach, et voila.

Good point. So, should we throw the columns out? More opinions on that, please.

Depends. Palaces tended to utterly dominate the city's they were build in and these columns could have been that predominant for a very good reason. However a smaller amount of collumns with some agora or other communal area thrown in between could look quite a lot better.

Finally:
Make the place interesting to explore. Have some neat text messages pop up at interesting points (like when the dweller first leaves the cave in fallout) Have npc's advert their wares/services, have some approach you with inane chatter/questions/offers.

Make the place lifelike. Think about how it would be to live in a destroyed old camp. What would people need/want, what would the leaders deem important to create/repair/provide. Do you eant to show a crumbling society, or one that is slowly getting back to it's feet after a disaster. All important in how to get the atmosphere right.

Good luck with the game, hope my inane chatter helps a bit.

LCJr. · Feb 8, 2006

I understand your going for the decayed empire look but the huge gaping holes in the walls is illogical if there's any kind of external threat. Something primitive like a wooden stockcade, shoddy stonework or mudbricks would would make more sense and still show the differences between the past and the present. If there are no external threats then what usually happens is the materials get stripped for other projects like the limestone exterior of the pyramids.

Maybe throw most of the poor buggers outside? Keep a few inside for servants and other menial work. But if the majority don't contribute much to the local taxbase why give them protection?

Speaking of taxes keep in mind one the major advantages of a walled town with gates was control over who comes and goes and making sure tariffs are paid.

Whipporowill · Feb 8, 2006

LCJr. said:
Maybe throw most of the poor buggers outside? Keep a few inside for servants and other menial work. But if the majority don't contribute much to the local taxbase why give them protection?

Exactly the point I was trying to make too. If room inside the walls are scarce, why let some freeloaders live there?

RGE · Feb 8, 2006

I think that a few token buildings are good enough. The palace really doesn't look like it ever fit in, so it looks like it was added later, or possibly added right before the great conflict, as a first step in an effort to turn the whole military camp into a high security luxurious estate. Or maybe the walls were added later, in preparation for the brewing conflict? Yeah, that seems more reasonable, except that the palace really ought to be in the center of the camp and not along a wall. I guess that it would be too medieval instead of ancient to have important buildings act as corners to the wall sections? Because that'd be a decent way of saving building materials, and if you're going to have the barracks along the wall, why not let them act as a tower?

I imagine that most real fortifications look a bit haphazard because they are big enough to have to adapt to the lay of the land. When all the land is flat CRPG-land that's not necessary, right? I suppose that Roman forts were square, but they were small and temporary, not built out of stone. For permanent fortifictions it seems a bit shortsighted to stick to a geometric shape rather than adapt to the local terrain and the likely directions of approaching threats. But then again, perhaps magic was so important that the walls merely served as a psychological reassaurance?

AoD town

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Cipher

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Severian Silk

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