What's wrong with art games?

laclongquan · Aug 3, 2011

The damn problem of art games is that too often they hide their shittiness under the mantle of ART!

"It's art, so if you find it uninteresting, banal shit boring it's because you are a barbarian." and stuffs like that.

Fuck you, art games.

As an aside, I also categorically avoid Korean games, manhwa, and movies like plague. There might be some good stuffs hidden that mountain of gabbage but I really cant bother with shifting it.

Awor Szurkrarz · Aug 3, 2011

Marobug said:
Awor Szurkrarz said:

Jagged Alliance 2, X-Com 1/2, Fallout, Metal Slug, Laser Squad, Falcon 4.0, Syndicate Wars, Operation Flashpoint, Ultima VII, Gunship, etc. etc. etc.

Click to expand...

None of these games are art games, you must have your definition confused.

Simply put, art games are games with the sole purpose of transmitting a certain experience, with no regard to entertainment value.

No, you have your definition confused. All of these games transmit a certain experience and have entertainment value, thus they are true art games. Games without entertainment value (usually because of shitty game mechanics) are shit games, not art games.

mondblut · Aug 3, 2011

"art games"? as in, "games for pretentious artfags", if the term "games" is applicable at all? well, duh...

sgc_meltdown · Aug 3, 2011

so is oblivion the piss christ of rpgs

Marobug · Aug 3, 2011

Awor Szurkrarz said:
Marobug said:

Awor Szurkrarz said:

Jagged Alliance 2, X-Com 1/2, Fallout, Metal Slug, Laser Squad, Falcon 4.0, Syndicate Wars, Operation Flashpoint, Ultima VII, Gunship, etc. etc. etc.

Click to expand...

None of these games are art games, you must have your definition confused.

Simply put, art games are games with the sole purpose of transmitting a certain experience, with no regard to entertainment value.

Click to expand...

No, you have your definition confused. All of these games transmit a certain experience and have entertainment value, thus they are true art games. Games without entertainment value (usually because of shitty game mechanics) are shit games, not art games.

All of these games transmit a certain experience and have entertainment value

That's basically the definition of a regular game. Even sports games aim to provide a certain experience to the player.

Games without entertainment value (usually because of shitty game mechanics) are shit games, not art games.

That's the same as saying a picasso or van gogh painting is shit. They might be for you because you might not like staring at a painting but some people do like it, not because it's entertaining but because of the experience the painting provides.

Here's a few well known art games creators, they all have links to their games so you can try them out:

http://www.increpare.com/
http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/jason-rohrer/ (probably the most well known art game developer still active, though his latest games are becoming less and less art games. I recommend Passage, it's pretty good)
http://distractionware.com/blog/ (not all of them are art games)

Grunker · Aug 3, 2011

That's the same as saying a picasso or van gogh painting is shit.

Did you just compare pretentious shit such as The Void to works of art by Van Gogh or Picasso? :lol:

Marobug · Aug 3, 2011

The void is not a art game, and whether or not art games are pretentious shit is subjective. Just like appreciating van gogh or picasso works. And I didn't really compare them, you can't compare a song with a painting for example, I think my point was clear.

Wyrmlord · Aug 3, 2011

Here is an idea for an art game.

It can be of any genre (FPS, turn-based strategy, adventure, RPG,.etc), but to advance in the game, you must become more powerful.

And in order to become more powerful, you may only ruin the lives of fake, in-game virtual people, exploit them, fool them, leave them for dry, scavenge them, expropriate all they own,.etc.

The catch? There is none. There will be no negative consequence in the game for cutthroat, savage, barbaric character. Only positive consequences, based on how you pull it off.

I can guarantee you that 99% of the people who intended to finish the game when they started it will simply hurt these fake virtual characters without remorse, in order to win it.

But if even 10% of such people eventually stop, because they find it immoral or hurtful to their sensibilities, we can consider games as an art. That will be my major concession.

How about that?

Awor Szurkrarz · Aug 3, 2011

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thursday · Aug 3, 2011

You can use a word like everyone else uses it, Awor, or you can make up your own little definition and get pissy when people don't agree with you.

People certainly are hostile to the idea of artgames around here. Do you similarly cringe at artmovies, or artbooks? Is anything beyond genre pulp worth your time?

laclongquan said:
"It's art, so if you find it uninteresting, banal shit boring it's because you are a barbarian." and stuffs like that.

Hating the fans is no reason to immediately hate the general idea. I know lots of people who don't care for James Joyce's writings. They don't feel the need, however, to constantly try to discredit the artistic merit others perceive in them.

There are more worthy targets for your rage than small developers trying out new storytelling mechanics.

Marobug · Aug 3, 2011

Awor Szurkrarz said:
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I suppose it's ok to be deliberately ignorant. Not my problem for sure but I'd be curious to hear who told you art games are games that "transmit a certain experience and have entertainment value". Any game designer or even a regular person who knows a thing or two about game design would laugh at your face if you told them that.

Awor Szurkrarz · Aug 3, 2011

thursday said:
You can use a word like everyone else uses it, Awor, or you can make up your own little definition and get pissy when people don't agree with you.

Everyone else? Everyone else = a few hipster faggots that were indoctrinated into the idea that great games aren't art but some regressive crap is, right? Because I haven't seen anyone else using the term art-game (except for the Insomnia guy that rightfully fights against that cancer).

Fuck you, I'm not getting drawn into discussion with you, drones. It would be a waste of my time.

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thursday · Aug 3, 2011

Wyrmlord said:
But if even 10% of such people eventually stop, because they find it immoral or hurtful to their sensibilities, we can consider games as an art. That will be my major concession.

So, the only meaningful choice the player can make in your game is to stop playing? Sounds like a pretty crap artgame.

Also, why can something only be art if it evokes a feeling of moral squeamishness in us?

sea · Aug 3, 2011

sgc_meltdown said:
so is oblivion the piss christ of rpgs

I don't think it counts if the game was made with good intentions. Unless Bethesda are in, fact, the greatest troll artists of the 21st century, a fact whose gravity would likely lead me to slaughter-suicide.

mr.doo · Aug 3, 2011

Awor Szurkrarz said:
thursday said:

You can use a word like everyone else uses it, Awor, or you can make up your own little definition and get pissy when people don't agree with you.

Click to expand...

Everyone else? Everyone else = a few hipster faggots that were indoctrinated into the idea that great games aren't art but some regressive crap is, right? Because I haven't seen anyone else using the term art-game (except for the Insomnia guy that rightfully fights against that cancer).

Fuck you, I'm not getting drawn into discussion with you, drones. It would be a waste of my time.

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Wat.

Art games is a genre, it's not about saying a specific game is art because it's awesome.
If you've never seen the term art games before then why the fuck are you acting like you know what it is and behave like a retard on crack whenever someone tells you what they are ?

Also gotta love how you put people on your ignore list (or at least say so) whenever you run out of arguments to defend your personally made up definition of what a art game is.
Clever way to get the last word, end a discussion and avoid further humiliation but you still look like a retard.

Sceptic · Aug 3, 2011

I went into this thread expecting an interesting discussion and instead I find Awor is on his periods again :decline:

thursday said:
Also, why can something only be art if it evokes a feeling of moral squeamishness in us?

Yeah, this. Whatever happened to art inspiring awe and wonder and a sense of serenity? Does art have to make you feel tortured to be worthy?

zeitgeist · Aug 3, 2011

mr.doo said:
Art games is a genre

What about art art then?

Awor Szurkrarz · Aug 3, 2011

mr.doo said:
Wat.

Art games is a genre, it's not about saying a specific game is art because it's awesome.
If you've never seen the term art games before then why the fuck are you acting like you know what it is and behave like a retard on crack whenever someone tells you what they are ?

I don't recognize your so called "genre" as a game genre. Especially that most of these self-proclaimed "art games" that I've played belong to established genres like platform games, adventure games, shooters, puzzle games, etc.
Your favourite "art-game" site says that these abortions of platform games, adventure games, shooters, puzzle games, etc. are "art-games", while my favourite "art-game" site says that they aren't and that the other games are "art-games". Isn't it horrible that not everyone agrees with your ideology?

Here's my favourite "art-game" site. Since it exhibits a high level of knowledge of gaming and tends to recommend "art-games" that are actually good games, I find its opinion much more agreeable than the opinion of your "art-game" site.

mr.doo said:
Also gotta love how you put people on your ignore list (or at least say so) whenever you run out of arguments to defend your personally made up definition of what a art game is.
Clever way to get the last word, end a discussion and avoid further humiliation but you still look like a retard.

No, I put you on ignore list because I don't want to waste time (you know what time is? Here's a clue, time isn't a synonym for humiliation despite that for some weird reason, your subhuman mind considers it to be. You can check in some kind of web dictionary if you can't understand English.) discussing with fanatical followers of some ideologically alien site praising crappy games as art.
Now that I'm done with responding to you, you can message your next friend from your "art-game" site so that he can log into his sparsely used RPGCodex account and lecture me about what which games are art. I'm going to ignore them on sight, though.

If they want to debate, they can debate with this article:
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_the_ge ... art_games/
I'd love to see them spend their time on trying to construct solid counter-arguments against this.

Phelot · Aug 3, 2011

To me a so called "Art" game would include stuff like The Resident's Bad Day on the Midway and The Void. Honestly, I define them as such only because it's what comes to mind. Some games have cool art direction or compelling stories, but I wouldn't call them particularly artsy. I guess it's when a game puts a major focus on fascinating or wonderful atmosphere or oddities to make you wonder.

Bad Day on the Midway is almost not even a game at all, but an interactive movie with an extreme time limit. You basically experience the world.

CorpseZeb · Aug 3, 2011

So... what is an art? What constitutes a beauty? These words are truly meaningless without thousand other about many philosophy systems, many theories of esthetics, many meanings of truth and meaning of words and how our words can/cannot describe outside world... so... erm... how about Mirror Edge – truly beautiful game blessed with shitty, stupid mechanics.

Ps. Oh, here is one old, medieval, gnostic definition of beauty – if you see something you cannot even describe, then you seen a beauty.

torpid · Aug 3, 2011

I think we need to wait for 1eyedking's input to clear things up here guys.

Menckenstein · Aug 3, 2011

I liked Mario Paint.

Clockwork Knight · Aug 3, 2011

laclongquan said:
The damn problem of art games is that too often they hide their shittiness under the mantle of ART!

"It's art, so if you find it uninteresting, banal shit boring it's because you are a barbarian." and stuffs like that.

Fuck you, art games.

Actually, it's their fans who do that. The game just presents you its artsiness an it's up to you if you wanna keep playing.

mr. doo said:
Art games is a genre

...no?

zeitgeist said:
What about art art then?

I think that, first of all, we must

define "art"

Vaarna_Aarne · Aug 3, 2011

Art game is a term used by faggots to defend an otherwise ordinary game (or substandard shit that has had its normal genre gameplay cut short) that tries to pass off its flaws by hiding behind a big load of pretentiousness. For a good example, see Limbo.

mr.doo · Aug 3, 2011

Awor Szurkrarz said:
No, I put you on ignore list because I don't want to waste time discussing with fanatical followers of some ideologically alien site praising crappy games as art.
Now that I'm done with responding to you, you can message your next friend from an "art-game" site so that he can log into his sparsely used RPGCodex account and lecture me about what which games are art. I'm going to ignore to ignore them on sight, though.

Quoted for eternity. :lol:

You know, anyone can see you are acting retarded a mile away, no need to call anyone's friends to lecture you.
And I never said I liked art games, actually I don't really get the point of their existence but I do know what they are, unlike you. It's not a matter of idealogy, it's a matter of definition.

But since you conveniently put me on ignore (or at least said so) I won't waste my time arguing by myself. Not that I feel like it honestly, it's pointless to discuss with a statue and everyone told what you needed to know.

Also your favourite art games site is full of japshit praise, so much for "high level of knowledge of gaming".

What's wrong with art games?

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inXile Entertainment

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