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AoD combat screen

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Combat
Closer look

The red circle thingy shows how far he can reach with that hammer. The crossbowmen are not party members, they are "hired help" sent by someone else to help you out. Don't ask what you can do for your faction, ask what your faction can do for you.

Opinions? Suggestions?
 

Section8

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Questions:

* How is movement info (specifically movement cost) relayed to the player? From those static shots, I can't judge anything, but without a grid or obvious tiles, I don't see a simple solution. Since the game isn't going to be static, I'm sure it's not an issue when I can move a mouse around and see distances. Just curious to see how you're doing it.

* Is is possible for the player to see the enemies' respective threat ranges? (ie spam one of those circles when you mouseover them, or something similar) Or should the player just predict that one their own?

* Why is the legionnaire unconscious? Is there a reason for players to render their foes unconscious, for that matter is it a concerted choice on their behalf?

* Why the red shading on the hand indicators? It would seem to indicate something is awry, like the weapon is too heavy, can't be used, etc. If that's the case, a bit more feedback would be required, and if that's not the case, then maybe the red can be done without.

* Is the circle an ever present entity, or does it just pop up when you select the weapon?

Suggestions:

* The circle could really do with a bit more subtlety. I don't think the decorative elements are necessary, and the colour (and transparency) could be toned back a bit. As it stands, it's a very prominent feature of the interface, when it doesn't really need to be. By contrast, I had to scan to find the much smaller AP counter, which is probably the most essential element to convey to the player. Fallout and Arcanum both had great visual indicators for APs, that were central, and above all other UI elements, bringing them as close to the active playing area as possible.

* It looks as though the circle is hovering at about knee height (or the draw order in relation to corpses is wacky) when it makes sense to have it as close to the ground as possible so there is no parallax error in judging distance (probably not a big issue, but hey, I'm being picky)

* Alpha mapping looks a bit funky. The edges of the red circle look as though they're anti-aliased on the diffuse layer, but not on the alpha layer, so there are lighter bits on the edges where the diffuse blends with the background. The net is the same, but the grass seems okay.

* <dresses up as a fucking paperclip> There's a conflicting tense to the net message. "You threw a weighted net, the throw is successful." You could probably even get away with "You successfully throw a weighted net."

But aside from what is a bunch of fairly minor quibbles, I'm eager to see more. Any chance of a FRAPS capture, or something less static?
 

HanoverF

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It'd be nice to see range of attack on the enemies as well, maybe a perk type ability for that?

Is the design stuff around the circle just to make it look fancy? A crushing weapon with a long reach would have an optimal range where it would inflict the most damage, shorter than that, you'd have to choke up and wouldn't get as much of a swing on targets closer to you. Might be beyond the scope of what you hope to accomplish, but something to think about.
 

Jason

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I agree about toning down the giant, flaming circle. Flames, like barbarian scenes, only look cool painted on the side of a van.

Otherwise, all is well. I'd play it.
 

Shagnak

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baby arm said:
I agree about toning down the giant, flaming circle. Flames, like barbarian scenes, only look cool painted on the side of a van.

Otherwise, all is well. I'd play it.
I actually like the "flamey circle".

I was assuming that it was combat-mode sensitive, i.e. that it is bright red and flamey due to "power attack" being selected.

Perhaps it can be made less "angry looking" for normal attacks, and positively demure for stealth attacks...etc.
 

Kamaz

Pahris Entertainment
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Me, as well, I like flaming circle. That gives some..some spice to whole thing. It's fine.

Other than that, it looks cool. Just I dont understand - his slot is red because its power-hit mode or because he has no AP's left? More info about APs would be nice.
 

Chefe

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Lookin' good!

I am with the crowd that likes the circle design. It adds some flair. I would suggest you tone the color down a little though, and make it so it looks like it's on the ground and not floating knee-high (like it would be under that fallen soldier instead of on top of him). I would also suggest a smoothing out of the edges of the circle, making it blend in a little more (and getting rid of the white pixels on the edge).
 

Micmu

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Maybe you should "compress" the message output a bit, say, "A critically hit B for nn, bypassing his armor knocking him unconscious", instead of a separate "B is unconscious". In some cases this might reduce the number of lines and clarifies why B is unconscious (like section8 said/asked).
And great job!
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Section8 said:
* How is movement info (specifically movement cost) relayed to the player? From those static shots, I can't judge anything, but without a grid or obvious tiles, I don't see a simple solution. Since the game isn't going to be static, I'm sure it's not an issue when I can move a mouse around and see distances. Just curious to see how you're doing it.
The cursor shows the amount of APs it would cost to move where it's pointing at.

* Is is possible for the player to see the enemies' respective threat ranges? (ie spam one of those circles when you mouseover them, or something similar) Or should the player just predict that one their own?
I want that too, we are working on it, shouldn't be a problem.

* Why is the legionnaire unconscious? Is there a reason for players to render their foes unconscious, for that matter is it a concerted choice on their behalf?
I prefer non-lethal combat like in Gothic. You want someone really and properly dead, you finish them off. That way you can fight someone without being forced to kill, it works both ways, of course. It also separates good fighters from killers - the game reflects and reacts to your ways.

* Why the red shading on the hand indicators? It would seem to indicate something is awry, like the weapon is too heavy, can't be used, etc. If that's the case, a bit more feedback would be required, and if that's not the case, then maybe the red can be done without.
It means that the weapon is 2 handed, but only one window is supposed to be red.

* Is the circle an ever present entity, or does it just pop up when you select the weapon?
We've added that yesterday, so it's hard to say. It's tied to the weapon, so if there is no weapon, there is no circle. If you have a ranged weapon selected, the circle is huge.

* The circle could really do with a bit more subtlety.
Could be. Let us play with it a bit.

* <dresses up as a fucking paperclip> There's a conflicting tense to the net message. "You threw a weighted net, the throw is successful." You could probably even get away with "You successfully throw a weighted net."
Thanks, that's much better.

But aside from what is a bunch of fairly minor quibbles, I'm eager to see more. Any chance of a FRAPS capture, or something less static?
Well, it's TB, only one character moves at a time, and you've seen what the animations look like. Anyway, we'll show more soon, and something less static.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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HanoverF said:
It'd be nice to see range of attack on the enemies as well, maybe a perk type ability for that?
Working on that. It's easy to add something, but I want to make sure it's less chaotic than it is right now, especially when enemies surround you. Perhaps the range should appear when you hover your mouse over someone.

Is the design stuff around the circle just to make it look fancy?
Yep. It's actually even more fancy than it appears on the screen - it's animated.

A crushing weapon with a long reach would have an optimal range where it would inflict the most damage, shorter than that, you'd have to choke up and wouldn't get as much of a swing on targets closer to you. Might be beyond the scope of what you hope to accomplish, but something to think about.
I just want to give 2H weapons longer reach, to make them more different than 1H stuff.

Shagnak said:
I was assuming that it was combat-mode sensitive, i.e. that it is bright red and flamey due to "power attack" being selected.

Perhaps it can be made less "angry looking" for normal attacks, and positively demure for stealth attacks...etc.
No, at this point that's for all attacks, but we may change it a bit

Kamaz said:
Other than that, it looks cool. Just I dont understand - his slot is red because its power-hit mode or because he has no AP's left? More info about APs would be nice.
We'll fix that. The AP window will show how many APs you have left instead of total APs.

callehe said:
I'd like to see a AP counter like in fallout though please.
Will what I mentioned above work?

Thanks for the kind words and your support, guys.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Missed this:

Section8 said:
* Alpha mapping looks a bit funky. The edges of the red circle look as though they're anti-aliased on the diffuse layer, but not on the alpha layer, so there are lighter bits on the edges where the diffuse blends with the background. The net is the same, but the grass seems okay.
It's been fixed
 

Nick

Iron Tower Studio
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Section8 said:
* Alpha mapping looks a bit funky. The edges of the red circle look as though they're anti-aliased on the diffuse layer, but not on the alpha layer, so there are lighter bits on the edges where the diffuse blends with the background. The net is the same, but the grass seems okay.

Fixed.

Section8 said:
* Is is possible for the player to see the enemies' respective threat ranges? (ie spam one of those circles when you mouseover them, or something similar) Or should the player just predict that one their own?

We'll have that.

Vault Dweller said:
It means that the weapon is 2 handed, but only one window is supposed to be red.

Heh, we didn't discuss it in details, so I thought about marking both handslots to show that weapon is two handed. Seemed pretty logical to me... Though, I've picked a wrong colour, I think. The current one, red, looks like it warns about something.

Which one should we replace it with? Any suggestions?
 

Spazmo

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Monkey Island
You could just have the hammer (or whichever 2H weapon) repeat in the other hand slot, but sort of transparent. IIRC that's what Diablo 2 did with 2H weapons.
 

Elwro

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Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
I like it!
I think it'd be nice if there was a variable in the options for the colour of the circle. I surely would experiment with other colours as the current one is a bit too striking for my eyes.
 

Human Shield

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I thought it was supposed to be Fallout-style double item system.

Wouldn't using a shield and sword take both. Wouldn't using a bow take up both. I thought it was going to allow switching from ranged to melee without opening inventory.
 

Section8

Cipher
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A couple of suggestions:

Since there are no comparative values on the UI (which isn't too much of a drama, since the player should be well aware of their max AP and HP) and the giant circle representing a less critical stat (weapon reach) I mocked up an idea that toys with showing the critical info on the active playing area. The inner circle can rotate slowly if need be, and there are countless permutations of similar UI elements that can be driven with vector graphic circles around the player. The pic is fairly self explanatory:

Linkage.

I also changed the weapon slots as per Spazmo's suggestion, which makes sense to me.

There's also an addition of a toggle between weapon sets (which could probably be represented in a less ambiguous fashion than the "1|2" in the pic, if indeed the character is expected to make weapon changes without accessing inventory. Even if it's done at an AP cost (albeit a lesser one than rummaging around in your pack) I think it's a reasonable enhancement to the system.

Now onto the questions:

The cursor shows the amount of APs it would cost to move where it's pointing at.

Does it also plot a short path? It's unlikely to be a drama if you're only dealing with small AP pools and short distances, but it's a nice enhancement if it shows why it's returning the AP value that it does.

I prefer non-lethal combat like in Gothic. You want someone really and properly dead, you finish them off. That way you can fight someone without being forced to kill, it works both ways, of course. It also separates good fighters from killers - the game reflects and reacts to your ways.

That's awesome, and I really like the idea, but a couple of concerns.

First of all, are there any distinctions made a la Gothic between areas where fighting is non-lethal and areas that aren't? This to me seems like a fairly artificial restriction (since the devs didn't want to have to account for sparing the lives of bandits, orcs and what not outside of the major settlements.) and it would be nice if I could get into most, if not all fights with a non lethal resolution.

Second, and kind of tied in with that, what can the player expect from foes they spare the lives of? I'd assume you can take their equipment and render them helpless, but can I talk to them? Imprison them? Restrain them? Torture them? And assuming I go on my merry way, will they disappear into some kind of limbo, or will it have gameplay effects, such a defeated foe becoming part of a civilian population somewhere close by, or perhaps taking up arms again, thus giving humanitarian resolution of a "stop the bandits" quest extra depth beyond "We beat you, never do it again! KK? lolz"

Lastly, does a deathblow need to be deliberately administered to each victim, or will some enemies die in the course of battle? The critical hit shown in the screenshot looks like an outright killer to me, and a few chaotic elements might be good provided there is is leeway for accidental death in the game's accounting for non-lethal characters.
 

RobRendell

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Another way to represent a wielded two-handed weapon on that display might be to remove the divider between the left and right sides, making it one big box. You'd probably want to center the info (weapon icon, AP cost etc) in the double-width box.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Human Shield said:
I thought it was supposed to be Fallout-style double item system.
I don't think that would work well in a fantasy game with shields. Besides, that adds more value to ranged 1H weapons: one handed crossbow, throwing knives, etc.

Wouldn't using a shield and sword take both. Wouldn't using a bow take up both.
Yes.

I thought it was going to allow switching from ranged to melee without opening inventory.
Not at the moment.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Section8 said:
Since there are no comparative values on the UI (which isn't too much of a drama, since the player should be well aware of their max AP and HP) and the giant circle representing a less critical stat (weapon reach) I mocked up an idea that toys with showing the critical info on the active playing area.
I think it's great. If we can make it work, it's definitely in.

I also changed the weapon slots as per Spazmo's suggestion, which makes sense to me.
Looks good too.

There's also an addition of a toggle between weapon sets (which could probably be represented in a less ambiguous fashion than the "1|2" in the pic, if indeed the character is expected to make weapon changes without accessing inventory. Even if it's done at an AP cost (albeit a lesser one than rummaging around in your pack) I think it's a reasonable enhancement to the system.
Not sure about this one (see my reply to HS), but we'll consider it

Does it also plot a short path?
We can add that

First of all, are there any distinctions made a la Gothic between areas where fighting is non-lethal and areas that aren't? This to me seems like a fairly artificial restriction (since the devs didn't want to have to account for sparing the lives of bandits, orcs and what not outside of the major settlements.) and it would be nice if I could get into most, if not all fights with a non lethal resolution.
There are no lethal/non-lethal areas. Combat ends when all opponents are knocked unconscious. Let's say that that's what HPs represent - your ability to stay and fight ignoring wounds and fatique. There are no artificial restrictions stopping you and anyone else from killing those who are down. There are areas and situations where you will most likely be killed and there are areas and situations where you will be defeated, possibly robbed, and thrown out. Usually, it's clear which one is which.

Sometimes being defeated opens new quests.

Second, and kind of tied in with that, what can the player expect from foes they spare the lives of? I'd assume you can take their equipment and render them helpless, but can I talk to them?
Yes. Sometimes defeating someone is one of the ways to get them talking about something they don't really want to talk about

Imprison them? Restrain them? Torture them?
No

And assuming I go on my merry way, will they disappear into some kind of limbo, or will it have gameplay effects
Gameplay effects. For example, if you are stopped by bandits, and manage to defeat them, you may kill them and collect the bounty or let them live and force them to give you a cut, even use them for assassination and heavy support (until they run out of bandits).

Nobody disappears.

Lastly, does a deathblow need to be deliberately administered to each victim, or will some enemies die in the course of battle?
Deathblow. I love the animations and all the blood.

The critical hit shown in the screenshot looks like an outright killer to me, and a few chaotic elements might be good provided there is is leeway for accidental death in the game's accounting for non-lethal characters.
Hmm, good point. Perhaps good criticals should cause death. I'll think about it.
 

Claw

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Looking good as everybody said, except the second link, which doesn't seem to work for me.


Vault Dweller said:
I think it's great. If we can make it work, it's definitely in.
Meh. Looks a bit overcrowded. It makes sense to show the range on the playing field, but I don't see a real need for Health or AP there.


Section8 said:
Does it also plot a short path?
We can add that
You really should.


Section8 said:
First of all, are there any distinctions made a la Gothic between areas where fighting is non-lethal and areas that aren't?
There are no lethal/non-lethal areas.
Btw, Gothic doesn't work like that either.


Hmm, good point. Perhaps good criticals should cause death. I'll think about it.
Maybe you could add a lethal threshold. If the health reaches zero and the remaining damage exceeds that threshold, the hit is lethal.
You might even add a "lethality" factor to modify the remaining damage so some weapons are less likely to cause fatal hits than others.
 

Human Shield

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How many AP does it take to open the inventory in battle and can you do unlimited stuff when it is open like in Fallout (exploitable IMO)?

I would like to see 2 two-handed weapon sets. I think that is a good amount for being able to carry on your person instead in your backpack. With a smaller AP cost to switch between them because you can holstering and unholstering stuff instead of digging it out of inventory.

So you could have a big hammer in both your hands, put it on your back and take out the med-kit and exploding potions that are on your belt instead of opening the inventory.

Have the second item switch indenpendently between the two if you are using a sword and shield.

So you could spend 1 AP and put your sword away and grab a healing potion from your belt and if using the potion takes the rest of your AP you still have a shield out. Or if the enemy is coming at you from a distance you can switch your shield for throwing knifes using the rest of your turn to throw and then on your next turn you can spend all your AP with the sword in your other hand, trying to kill him quickly and risk not having your shield ready.

Maybe I will put a photoshop of my idea later. I guess it depends on how opening inventory is going to work and what the cost is.
 

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