Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Editorial Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,489
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Tags: J.E. Sawyer; Obsidian Entertainment; Pillars of Eternity

In these days when his professional aptitude as a system designer is under attack from certain quarters, Josh Sawyer has made the interesting choice of publishing an extensive guest editorial over at Kotaku. The topic? How To Balance An RPG. It's actually a highly technical treatise, which should be of interest to all of you prospective RPG developers out there. I'll quote a fun snippet from the introduction:

"Trash" or "trap" options are a time-honored tradition in RPGs, both tabletop and computer. Trash options are choices that are intentionally designed to be bad, or that don't get enough attention during development and testing to actually be viable in the game.

It is now 2014 and, friends, I am here to tell you that trash options are bullshit.

In a computer RPG, any trash option that goes from designer's brain to the shipped product has probably gone through a few dozen cycles of implementation, testing, and revision. In the end, the trash option is the proverbial polished turd. Any seasoned RPG veteran that looks at it in detail realizes it's terrible and avoids it. Those who don't look closely or who aren't system masters may wind up picking it for their character under the mistaken impression that it's a viable choice. In any case, it's a bad option that the team spent a bunch of time implementing either for misguided schadenfreude or simple lack of attention.

While big RPGs always let a few of these trash options slip through unintentionally, the best way to avoid the problem on a large scale is simply to ask why well-informed players, acting with eyes wide open, would want to pick any given option over a different option in the first place. There should be a good conceptual/aesthetic reason as well as a good mechanical reason. If one of those falls short, keep hammering away until you feel you've justified their existence. Sometimes, it's not possible. In those cases, at least you've had the good fortune to realize you're stuck with trash early in development — whether it doesn't fit aesthetically or doesn't work mechanically — and can justly dump it before more effort goes into it.

As an example from Pillars of Eternity, we have maces and padded armor, two things that generally get short shrift in a lot of RPGs. In most RPGs, maces are slow and do poor damage with few elements in the "+" column. In Pillars of Eternity, they don't do any less damage than other one-handed weapons and they have the advantage of negating a portion of the armor on the target. Swords can do a variety of damage types, spears are inherently accurate, and battle axes do high Crit damage, but maces are a viable mechanical choice among their peers.

Padded armor suffers even worse in most RPGs: in many games, there are literally no worse options than padded. The suits are often aesthetically ugly and mechanically awful—the quintessence of a pure RPG trash option—and if players are forced to wear padded armor at the game's opening, they'll gladly ditch it as soon as anything else becomes available. In Pillars of Eternity, padded armor actually offers reasonably good protection. It can easily be argued that our padded armor is more protective than is realistic, but the first goal is not verisimilitude, but justifying the player's interest.

And, while heavier armor absorbs more damage, the heavier a suit of armor is in Pillars of Eternity, the longer it takes a character to recover from making an attack or casting a spell. A character in mail armor can absorb more damage than a character in padded, but the character in padded armor will perform more actions over a given period of time.

This fundamental tradeoff is both easy to grasp ("take less damage vs. do things faster") and has universal implications for all characters. All characters perform actions, and performing actions more quickly is always better. All characters also need to be protected from damage. A tradeoff like damage reduction vs. movement speed would have dramatically different implications for a melee-oriented barbarian than a long-range wizard.

We also intentionally avoided the classic RPG armor tradeoff of damage avoidance (i.e. dodging) vs. straight damage reduction. While it's easy to grasp conceptually, it's mechanically uninteresting and unengaging unless you get into spreadsheet-level minutiae of how the damage reduction curves play out over time. Spreadsheet gaming can be enjoyable on its own, but there should be a more obvious tradeoff that the player can directly observe in-game for the choice to feel meaningful.
Read the full article to learn how Sawyer does what he does. Now, excuse me while I go get my popcorn...
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
I predict it will take roughly 12 minutes for hardcore optimizers to develop the clearly optimal builds for the melee, artillery and healer/buffer roles in PoE.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,489
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
More important snippets:

Why is game balance important in a single-player game?

It's a question many players often ask rhetorically, but there are many important reasons why balance should be a strong focus, even in RPGs that focus on single-player experiences. Balance isn't necessarily about seeing what character builds are more powerful when put head to head, but about understanding the different types of challenges those characters will face when going through the game.

Ideally, each type of character build has its own strengths and weaknesses throughout the game's content, but ultimately ALL character builds should feel viable in different ways. No player wants to spend 40 hours working toward a dead-end build. Similarly, few players want to accidentally discover that their fundamental character concept is an unspoken "easy mode" through the game.

RPGs, especially the RPGs we make at Obsidian, are about choice and consequence. That doesn't just apply to the narrative elements, but also gameplay: character creation, character building, and tactical application of skills and abilities in the wild. If we do our jobs well, players will feel the sting of character weaknesses and the satisfaction of character strengths over the course of the game. Challenge is a tricky thing to balance for a wide range of players, but ideally it builds by giving players short periods of stress and mild frustration caused by a mental obstacle. Players examine the obstacle, consider their options, make choices, and eventually overcome it, transforming stress into a sense of exhilaration at their own ingenuity.

But where does this process all start? For me, it begins with a common question I have with anything involving player choice.

What Sort of Decisions Do We Want the Player to Make?

By this I mean not only the choices players must make at an obvious level—Strength vs. Charisma, fighter vs. rogue, sword vs. axe—but also, the criteria that drive those decisions. These criteria could be as broad as deciding between a character class that does a lot of damage in combat vs. a class that is great at navigating conversations. Or, they could be as narrow as emphasizing attack speed over damage done on a Critical Hit.

There are two levels at which players generally make these sorts of decisions. The first is aesthetic and conceptual: "Wizards are cool." "Clubs are boring." "Being strong owns."

The second is mechanical/rational: "High damage is important." "Gotta have a healer." "Debuff effects can make a huge difference in fights."

Different players balance these desires differently, but ideally an aesthetic choice will always map to a viable build, and a viable build will map to something players will find cool for their character. When this doesn't happen, it can result in a lot of annoyance from players. They are either forced to play something they conceptually like that is mechanically bad or they have to veer away from their character concept to be mechanically viable. In an RPG, this is undesirable — so say I, at least. That's why this initial stage should only end after you've soberly asked yourself important questions about why players would want to pick any given option you're presenting them.

All These Feels

The most important high-level goal with any choice the player makes is that they feel good. This is an abstract concept, but it's important to understand that games come down to a series of experiences for the player. The reason we tweak or adjust anything isn't simply to achieve a mythic "perfect balance" as a goal in its own right, but to make something balanced enough that the player's experience with that content is satisfying. There are myriad aesthetic and mechanical elements that feed into the player's perception of the options that are available to them. We want players to feel that their choices fit their character concept and are ultimately up to the challenge — without making the challenge irrelevant.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,693
Well I wrote games, including PnP system, but I found the only way how to balance a game is getting enough experience as GM, and simply make it interesting.

Sawyer is an idiot.
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
Well I wrote games, including PnP system, but I found the only way how to balance a game is getting enough experience as GM, and simply make it interesting.

Sawyer is an idiot.

Superficially Sawyer would agree with that (As well as most people at Obsidian)

The answer to *I wanna get into crpg design* is *DM. A lot* normally.
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,661
Somehow I knew this would become a news article and flame bait :M

An interesting piece but I sometimes wonder if there are more tradeoffs than Josh acknowledges. For example is there a tradeoff between eliminating "trash" options which he seems to have such a problem with, and retaining interesting options? If every possible option is equally viable does it take some of the satisfaction out of putting your party together? Perhaps I'm too accustomed to existing chargen systems, so I'm not saying this is definitely the case, just a thought. I guess we'll find out one day when someone designs a system with no potential dump stats where everyone is a winner. I wonder when that will be :cool:.

And I also can't help thinking of subsequent playthroughs on BG2 etc where I used some pretty unusual and gimped characters. Sure it wasn't balanced but it was quirky and fun and I guess Sawyer sees sub-optimal possibilities as something to be exterminated at all costs.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,489
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Somehow I knew this would become a news article and flame bait :M

An interesting piece but I sometimes wonder if there are more tradeoffs than Josh acknowledges. For example is there a tradeoff between eliminating "trash" options which he seems to have such a problem with, and retaining interesting options? If every possible option is equally viable does it take some of the satisfaction out of putting your party together? Perhaps I'm too accustomed to existing chargen systems, so I'm not saying this is definitely the case, just a thought. I guess we'll find out one day when someone designs a system with no potential dump stats where everyone is a winner. I wonder when that will be :cool:.

And I also can't help thinking of subsequent playthroughs on BG2 etc where I used some pretty unusual and gimped characters. Sure it wasn't balanced but it was quirky and fun and I guess Sawyer sees sub-optimal possibilities as something to be exterminated at all costs.

Something interesting I noticed is that, intentionally or not, Pillars does in fact let you create a clearly sub-optimal character; you don't need to spend all of your free points on attributes.
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
Somehow I knew this would become a news article and flame bait :M

An interesting piece but I sometimes wonder if there are more tradeoffs than Josh acknowledges. For example is there a tradeoff between eliminating "trash" options which he seems to have such a problem with, and retaining interesting options? If every possible option is equally viable does it take some of the satisfaction out of putting your party together? Perhaps I'm too accustomed to existing chargen systems, so I'm not saying this is definitely the case, just a thought. I guess we'll find out one day when someone designs a system with no potential dump stats where everyone is a winner. I wonder when that will be :cool:.

And I also can't help thinking of subsequent playthroughs on BG2 etc where I used some pretty unusual and gimped characters. Sure it wasn't balanced but it was quirky and fun and I guess Sawyer sees sub-optimal possibilities as something to be exterminated at all costs.

Something interesting I noticed is that, intentionally or not, Pillars does in fact let you create a clearly sub-optimal character; you don't need to spend all of your free points on attributes.

Of course you can make sub-optimal charachters. Don't you mean gimped Infinitron?
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Sure it wasn't balanced but it was quirky and fun and I guess Sawyer sees sub-optimal possibilities as something to be exterminated at all costs.

This discussion was done plenty of times around here. The consensus among balancetards is that you're just deluded and not having actual fun.
 

commie

The Last Marxist
Patron
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
1,865,249
Location
Where one can weep in peace
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Sorry but what's the problem? Getting rid of trash options is a good thing. Who honestly went with the shitty builds possible in Gold Box? It's basically getting rid of shitty 'choice' that no one ever used anyway.

Secondly, I know of a shitton of games from the 'golden age' with a whole bunch of redundant skill options available, often with no real ability to work out whether they would actually be used in the game or not. This isn't 'player choice' or 'fun'. Where's the fun in packing points into something that you realise two thirds into a game that it's a skill that you will use maybe once or twice in the game and that you could have used those points on something else?

FeelTheTurds is full of shit if he thinks that the illusion of choice is a good thing(Check out Twilight 2000's Stats and character list, and then see what is actually useful in the game for example). He should read the fucking article with understanding to see that Sawyer is not saying anything about making every build 'balanced' or optimal. It's all about making variety actually viable. It's all about people not gravitating to the tried and tested staples in party design 'Group always needs fighter, thief, cleric, mage etc.' and deciding immediately to go to 'higher' classes of weapons and armor as soon as possible, but rather to be tempted with trying different options and equipment.

Sawyers approach actually encourages creativity and risk taking, more so than traditionally accepted design in which you know that 90% of players will pick party of x,y,z cause they know that that's the bog standard set that will give the greatest chance of success and play accordingly in the same schematic way. Just check out the threads about crawlers, and people's advice for party balance etc. Notice the almost anguished calls from noobs for advice on creating the 'best' party as they already know that a 'bad' choice means shit. Is this really 'fun'?

In PoE there's nothing to stop you gimping your own characters to emulate the 'good old days', so what's your fucking whining about anyway?
 

Zed

Codex Staff
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
17,068
Codex USB, 2014
Kotaku
AN RPG
:mrfussy:
:dead:
I'm not one of them fancy english-speaking folk but I know that A:s and AN:s are for sounds, not if it actually starts with a consonant or vowel.
RPG = ARHPEEGEE - starts with an wovel sound



On topic:
After playing the PoE beta, I'm dropping all precedents regarding Sawyer and game design. PoE is less fun in favor of design ideas that "work better in theory" but are in reality not that fun.
Sawyer is a good designer, but he fails at creating a spiritual successor to infinity engine games. Maybe he is best confined to existing frameworks in order to maintain... well, fun. The fun-factor.
I am hoping subsequent Eternity games leave room for overhauling game systems, and that Sawyer is not put in charge. Nor Tim Cain, because his ideas are a better fit for MMORPGs.
 
Last edited:

Amasius

Augur
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Messages
959
Location
Thanatos
Unfortunately good balance doesn't necessarily equate fun to play. In hindsight none of my favorite RPGs (Planescape, Fallout, Bloodlines, Morrowind) are even close to be perfectly balanced. We'll see how Sawyers approach will work out, so far I'm not convinced it'll be F.U.N.

Edit: dang, ninja'd by Zed.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
17,068
Codex USB, 2014
That old title for the PoE thread, "Josh Sawyer kills fun", or "destroys fun", or whatever it was - hilariously spot on. Who wrote that?
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
1 - Start with a fundamentally broken and unsuitable game structure, such as the Infinity Engine or Oblivion model
2 - Add DT
3 - Distance yourself from the rest of the game
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,489
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
On topic:
After playing the PoE beta, I'm dropping all precedents regarding Sawyer and game design. PoE is less fun in favor of design ideas that "work better in theory" but are in reality not that fun.
Sawyer is a good designer, but he fails at creating a spiritual successor to infinity engine games. Maybe he is best confined to existing frameworks in order to maintain... well, fun. The fun-factor.
I am hoping subsequent Eternity games leave room for overhauling game systems, and that Sawyer is not put in charge. Nor Tim Cain, because his ideas are a better fit for MMORPGs.

WHO'S THE CODEX CASSANDRA NOW http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...o-the-new-thread.75947/page-1093#post-3103270 :smug:
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
So, commie, since you scream for me...

Notice the almost anguished calls from noobs for advice on creating the 'best' party as they already know that a 'bad' choice means shit.

:prosper:

This is your argument for Sawyeristic bullshit? That noobs ask for the best party and they get replies of some optimal party from people who played the game lots of times and found out what works best?
In other words, games suck because there are walkthroughs?
Who in the fuck cares about some fucks who want to have the game spoiled for them?

It's all about making variety actually viable.

Retarded bullshit. Variety is viable in any of the games Sawyer and balancetards shit on. But once again, proof that balancetards can't comprehend playing a build that's not optimal and automatically dismiss it as not viable.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
17,068
Codex USB, 2014
On topic:
After playing the PoE beta, I'm dropping all precedents regarding Sawyer and game design. PoE is less fun in favor of design ideas that "work better in theory" but are in reality not that fun.
Sawyer is a good designer, but he fails at creating a spiritual successor to infinity engine games. Maybe he is best confined to existing frameworks in order to maintain... well, fun. The fun-factor.
I am hoping subsequent Eternity games leave room for overhauling game systems, and that Sawyer is not put in charge. Nor Tim Cain, because his ideas are a better fit for MMORPGs.

WHO'S THE CODEX CASSANDRA NOW http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...o-the-new-thread.75947/page-1093#post-3103270 :smug:
oh wow you showed me

but it's not because this game is like IWD2.

more like because this game has shitty design.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,823
Best game designer on the planet. Iä Josh Sawyer, baby goat with a thousand won.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom