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Review GameBanshee Reviews Avadon 2: The Corruption

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Tags: Avadon 2: The Corruption; Eric Schwarz; Spiderweb Software

GameBanshee's Eric Schwartz has written a four page review of Spiderweb Software's latest offering, Avadon 2: The Corruption. As many of you might know if you've been following his posts on the Codex and elsewhere, he didn't much like it. For example, here's his appraisal of the game's story:

This focus on morally grey political situations is Avadon 2's biggest strength, as far as its story goes. The story provides you many opportunities to side with or against many involved parties, and additionally makes a bigger distinction between the Midlands Pact, Avadon itself, and its ruler, Redbeard, as all three dimensions are called into question rather than just one. Jeff Vogel, though not the flashiest writer when it comes to dialogue, knows how to create interesting scenarios for events to take place in.

But, while these smaller individual situations and scenes found in the game are often quite interesting, the wider plot unfortunately feels like it's taken a back seat. Avadon as a setting is extremely generic, and while The Corruption has expanded it somewhat, the political drama that makes up its more interesting subplots isn't fully realized in the main story, which instead devolves into a similarly generic "save the world" plot that's one step short of featuring a doomsday device. I do think it's better than the first game's story, which I found extremely slow-paced and uneventful - but it's still not that great, either, and lacks a lot of the mystery and sense of discovery of other Spiderweb games.

What's more, Avadon 2's story constantly resorts to frustrating contrivances. There are close to a dozen times throughout the game where villains twirl their mustaches and cackle from behind magical plot armor, and even in those situations where you may be allowed to act, the game gives the enemy an absurd number of hit points and protection spells to stop you from messing things up (which, of course, you can never get yourself). There were also several instances where my party was captured by the villains in a cutscene, and in one case subdued by the same types of enemies that I'd already slaughtered dozens of with ease. This inconsistency between game mechanics and story happens time and time again, and in my opinion, runs contrary to the core principles of computer RPGs.

There's also a lot of little nits to pick which show Avadon 2 may not have received as much attention as it could have in the story department. There's a ham-fisted, awkward romance sub-plot shoehorned in that keeps popping up whether you care or not, there are still tons of "fake" choices in dialogue that have no impact on how events play out, and the ending feels very rushed, acting as a blatant sequel setup rather than a satisfying conclusion. Additionally, while Jeff Vogel has constructed a character-driven story, unfortunately his writing often doesn't provide those characters with interesting back-stories, motives or personalities, both allies and enemies alike - while the villains are probably the most one-dimensional, the companion characters also feel like they were picked off a shelf, most of them falling into the "arrogant and egotistical" or "mysterious and brooding" camps.​

On the other hand, he does think the combat is somewhat improved from the first game:

The actual combat itself in Avadon 2 is actually a step up from the last game, in terms of encounter design. Combat against regular enemies tends to be very boring and uneventful, with little strategy required short of luring enemies around corners one-by-one, spamming area-of-effect spells, and buffing your party up, and as the game goes on these trash fights succumb to hit point bloat and pointless repetition. However, the addition of Tinkermages doesn't just mean you get to use turrets and traps - it also means many areas feature mines, blade throwers, and other mechanical obstacles that present some interesting challenges. Enemy Tinkermages also present more potent threats, and many encounters combine both stationary traps with standard enemies. There are also a number of fights against bosses and unique enemies that, while often heavily scripted, require the use of special one-time mechanics to complete. These fights are often very engaging, and towards the end of the game, challenging in a way that doesn't feel cheap or frustrating.​

And in summary:

Overall, Avadon 2 is very much more of the same for Avadon. What Avadon did well, in its interesting political situations that tread morally ambiguous ground, is still alive and well in Avadon 2, perhaps even better. There are also some enjoyable side-quests and a few companions I liked, even though a few too many characters were too bland and stock for my tastes. The Tinkermage character class is also something different and is more interesting to play than most of the other choices, too. Even though the overarching story itself is not very interesting, it's still a step up from the first game's.

Yet, Avadon 2 also maintains all the same issues the first game had in spades. There is too much of a focus on combat, and the combat that does make up most of the gameplay simply isn't very good most of the time. The quest design is often absurd and illogical in the way it cuts off opportunities from you arbitrarily. There's still an over-abundance of purely cosmetic choices, where a line of dialogue will change but the end result will be identical. And perhaps worst, it's simply too big and bloated for its own good, and doesn't have enough for the player to really do - that Diablo-level of depth to the character system really does lead to a mechanically shallow game on the whole.

Avadon found its niche of fans, of course, and Avadon 2 will still please those players who want more of the same, but as a sequel, and Spiderweb's umpteenth game overall, I feel these issues shouldn't be overlooked. At $10 on Steam and GOG, and $20 at Spiderweb's official site, Avadon 2: The Corruption still follows the Spiderweb mantra of providing a lot of game for your dollar, and I still do appreciate Jeff Vogel's incredible effort in building such huge RPGs with such a small team. But, take away the sheer size and ambition of the "one-man RPG studio", and the game both comes up lacking next to Spiderweb's excellent Geneforge and Avernum games, and unambitious when taken as a sequel to the first Avadon.​

tl;dr Vogel's gonna Vogel.
 

Kem0sabe

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i bought it for 5 euros from GOG, and i think that's the ideal price point. I enjoyed the first game for what it was, a light rpg that i would mess around with during off hours with an interesting enough setting and writing that would keep me engaged beyond the slew of combat encounters.

After playing it for a few days i can say that it's an improvement over Avadon 1, in terms of combat encounters, but a step back in terms of playability due to the increase in size. I invariably grew bored with the large zones and the repetition of trash mob encounters, while the first one offered a condensed experience, Vogel tried to expand the sequel without adding proper engaging content to it.

Will probably finish it some weekend when i'm bored and have nothing else to do.
 

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That's about four pages more than it deserves. I've finished the first Avadon out of extreme boredom, but I can't bring myself to finish even the demo of the second one.
 

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i bought it for 5 euros from GOG, and i think that's the ideal price point. I enjoyed the first game for what it was, a light rpg that i would mess around with during off hours with an interesting enough setting and writing that would keep me engaged beyond the slew of combat encounters.

After playing it for a few days i can say that it's an improvement over Avadon 1, in terms of combat encounters, but a step back in terms of playability due to the increase in size. I invariably grew bored with the large zones and the repetition of trash mob encounters, while the first one offered a condensed experience, Vogel tried to expand the sequel without adding proper engaging content to it.

Will probably finish it some weekend when i'm bored and have nothing else to do.

This. Avadon 2 isn't a good game, and it's not a bad game. It's $5 of amusement, the description of the corruption was interesting, I really do like some of the characters (redbeard especially), it's better than Avadon 1, but ultimately I didn't finish it and I doubt I will play it again anytime soon. After 14 or so hours I just don't have any desire to load it up again; I felt too restricted, the plot was on rails, the engine/character attributes system was too simple, trash mobs wasted my time, etc.

This is coming from someone who thinks Vogel has made some of the best RPG titles ever (Geneforge series, Nethergate).
 

Agesilaus

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Please buy Vogel's latest biowhore shit. It is only 5 $.
No thanks. I suggest investing in Paper Sorcerer. It is 5 $ and a good and fun game.

Where did I tell anyone to buy it? I just agreed it's worth $5; I'm sure your paper sorcerer thing is better, although I haven't played that.

You know what I do recommend? That anyone who is seriously considering the game try out the demo; Vogel has been putting out nice demos that allow you to experience a lot of the gameplay and story before making a purchasing decision. What I'm saying is, up yours, tosser.
 

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This. Avadon 2 isn't a good game, and it's not a bad game. It's $5 of amusement, the description of the corruption was interesting, I really do like some of the characters (redbeard especially), it's better than Avadon 1, but ultimately I didn't finish it and I doubt I will play it again anytime soon. After 14 or so hours I just don't have any desire to load it up again; I felt too restricted, the plot was on rails, the engine/character attributes system was too simple, trash mobs wasted my time, etc.

This is coming from someone who thinks Vogel has made some of the best RPG titles ever (Geneforge series, Nethergate).
If a game is only worth $5 it is either very short or bad.
 
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This. Avadon 2 isn't a good game, and it's not a bad game. It's $5 of amusement, the description of the corruption was interesting, I really do like some of the characters (redbeard especially), it's better than Avadon 1, but ultimately I didn't finish it and I doubt I will play it again anytime soon. After 14 or so hours I just don't have any desire to load it up again; I felt too restricted, the plot was on rails, the engine/character attributes system was too simple, trash mobs wasted my time, etc.

This is coming from someone who thinks Vogel has made some of the best RPG titles ever (Geneforge series, Nethergate).
If a game is only worth $5 it is either very short or bad.

It isn't short. But very bad.
 

Correct_Carlo

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Please buy Vogel's latest biowhore shit. It is only 5 $.

Dude, you're so edgy.

I'll bet you have like some sweet tats and a nose piercing and totally slam cans of Mountain Dew while doing extreme sports and you don't give a fuck because that's just your style and we have to fucking deal with it.

I mean, you took the word "Bioware" and replaced the word "ware" with "whore," which is just playing with fire, man. Especially here on RPG Codex where basically everyone loves Bioware and Jeff Vogel, shit like that could really get you in trouble. If you keep kicking hornets nests like this you're libel to get stung. But knowing you, I bet you don't even give a fuck. You probably jerk off with hornet's nests just for fun, on account of being so edgy and all.
 

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In all seriousness, though, I don't understand why Codex has its knives out so much for Jeff Vogel. There's almost David Gaider levels of hate on here for him, which is weird. Dude single handedly made the Geneforge games, which I think are among the best RPGs of the past 20 years (and it's not like they ended eons ago, or anything. The last was released 3 years ago). Yet he makes one series modeled after Bioware and suddenly he's a community joke and everything he does is shit. The level of group think on these forums can get really silly at times (especially since alot of people seem to bash his newer games without ever having played them).

As to Avadon, it's definitely the worst of the three Spiderweb main series, but they aren't bad games either. They are very much Spiderweb's attempt at Bioware, in the same way that all their other series are modeled after other games (Geneforge after Fallout and Avernum after Ultima). So if you approach them with that mindset and adjust your expectations accordingly, I still think they are pretty good games even if they don't approach the leves of Spiderweb's best. I think their biggest weakness is that the politics aren't as engaging as the politics were in the Geneforge games. The Geneforges' political factions were all built around philosophical debates about consciousness, personhood, eugenics, and slavery (among other things), which made them all immediately engaging in a way that Avadon's political factions (which are more concerned with mundane, dry, shit like control of land and political power) aren't. The issues at stake in the Geneforges were very relevant to our own world, whereas there's not much at stake in the Avadons beyond who gets to control pretend digital land in a pretend digital universe. But I do think the Avadons make the best of what they have to work with and have some interesting characters and scenarios, even if I don't think Bioware style games work to Vogel's strengths. So I hope he keeps the Bioware-isms confined to the Avadon series and moves on to something else when he's done.
 
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:lol: Not as edgy as you bro.

The reason I hate Vogel was he had good stuff with Avernum 1-3. Geneforge was superb. Specially 5. But now he has fallen to Biowhore imitations. He is like Lord British to me. Glory of his prime gone. Now its just shit (although it is TB shit so that has to count for something I suppose). Also look at Piere. KotC then BotS.

So by your logic, we should lower our expectations from a solid DnD TB combat sim to shitty RTS and sing Praise be to Pierre! because he made KotC earlier and then continue praising his shitty BotS.
 
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Haba

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In all seriousness, though, I don't understand why Codex has its knives out so much for Jeff Vogel. There's almost David Gaider levels of hate on here for him, which is weird.

He once made good games. Then he got worse.

And kept getting worse.

And worse.

It's tough love, baby. The beatings will continue until the design improves!
 

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Garriot and Molyneux have been churning out shit for almost twenty years now. Vogel made the Avadon series in the last few years, along with an avernum remake. I still think vogel will make some more great games, which is more than I can say for the other two.

As for Pierre, he made one rpg and it was fairly good. Now he is making a second rpg. One crappy rts in the middle does not mean decline
 

sea

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In all seriousness, though, I don't understand why Codex has its knives out so much for Jeff Vogel. There's almost David Gaider levels of hate on here for him, which is weird. Dude single handedly made the Geneforge games, which I think are among the best RPGs of the past 20 years (and it's not like they ended eons ago, or anything. The last was released 3 years ago). Yet he makes one series modeled after Bioware and suddenly he's a community joke and everything he does is shit. The level of group think on these forums can get really silly at times (especially since alot of people seem to bash his newer games without ever having played them).

As to Avadon, it's definitely the worst of the three Spiderweb main series, but they aren't bad games either. They are very much Spiderweb's attempt at Bioware, in the same way that all their other series are modeled after other games (Geneforge after Fallout and Avernum after Ultima). So if you approach them with that mindset and adjust your expectations accordingly, I still think they are pretty good games even if they don't approach the leves of Spiderweb's best. I think their biggest weakness is that the politics aren't as engaging as the politics were in the Geneforge games. The Geneforges' political factions were all built around philosophical debates about consciousness, personhood, eugenics, and slavery (among other things), which made them all immediately engaging in a way that Avadon's political factions (which are more concerned with mundane, dry, shit like control of land and political power) aren't. The issues at stake in the Geneforges were very relevant to our own world, whereas there's not much at stake in the Avadons beyond who gets to control pretend digital land in a pretend digital universe. But I do think the Avadons make the best of what they have to work with and have some interesting characters and scenarios, even if I don't think Bioware style games work to Vogel's strengths. So I hope he keeps the Bioware-isms confined to the Avadon series and moves on to something else when he's done.
It's not just his games, really, it's his attitude. There was a thing with the Codex a couple years ago around Avadon's release where, rather than actually trying to address the concerns of the people communicating with him, he blew off all Codex criticism as invalid and refused to engage in any discussion whatsoever, even those who were being civil and had good arguments. Now he just seems to have the idea that more sales = better game, and his insular community and group of testers seems happy to constantly praise everything he does even if there are often (major) problems with it.

I'm not going to say he is lazy or stupid, because neither is true (quite the contrary), but I think he's gotten somewhat arrogant and perhaps complacent or lost some of his ambition in recent years, and it feels like his games have suffered along with it. I dunno, maybe he's getting tired of it all?
 

Loriac

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Also he refused to accept that his mary sue was almost universally butchered by players of avadon, and rather than having him start avadon 2 dead instead retconned the plot of avadon so he's still alive.

Happily players can focus on the deep and involved romance in avadon 2 to take their minds off the ham-fisted railroading and dm fiat.
 

Sceptic

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Garriot and Molyneux have been churning out shit for almost twenty years now. Vogel made the Avadon series in the last few years, along with an avernum remake. I still think vogel will make some more great games, which is more than I can say for the other two.
Hey, I remember when Ultima 8 came out, and we all thought Garriot still had it in him to make more great games. Great games like Ultima 9, Tabula Rasa and now Shroud of the Avatar.

Do you seriously need to wait 20 years from now before recognizing that the Avadon games are decline? Is looking at them right now not enough?
 

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There was a thing with the Codex a couple years ago around Avadon's release where, rather than actually trying to address the concerns of the people communicating with him, he blew off all Codex criticism as invalid and refused to engage in any discussion whatsoever, even those who were being civil and had good arguments.

Oh, so Codex is a jilted lover then. Now it makes sense. I didn't realize it was personal. :D

he blew off all Codex criticism as invalid and refused to engage in any discussion whatsoever, even those who were being civil and had good arguments.

Yeah, because I bet you guys were all on your best behavior and being totally civil and everything. If half the thread was calling Vogel a Biowhore faggot he totally should have saw through that to the trenchant criticisms at their heart and addressed the very civil criticisms every one else was mounting.

I mean, I love the codex because it offers a very unique perspective on gaming that you can't find anywhere else, but you also have to admit that this forum does not give a good first impression to outsiders. So, honestly, I don't blame any developers that might come here and dismiss the entire forum out of hand. You kind of have to hang out here for a while before you get on everyone's wavelength and realize it's not the video gaming subforum of Stormfront that it might first appear to be.
 

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Actually, yes, he should have. The Codex has been around for a long time, and so has Vogel. He knows exactly what we stand for.
 

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Johannes

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Now he just seems to have the idea that more sales = better game, and his insular community and group of testers seems happy to constantly praise everything he does even if there are often (major) problems with it.
Obviously more sales is the ultimate goal of an entepreneur.


Now another thing is, are his crappy design decisions actually related to increased sales or something else? Honestly the way I see it, making games more codex-approved would only increase his sales further, as long as the normal difficulty is still easy for retarded people. There's so much to improve in the character systems and pacing of his games, that it's not really a subjective matter, fixing the flaws would make the game more enjoyable for anyone.
 

Zeriel

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There was a thing with the Codex a couple years ago around Avadon's release where, rather than actually trying to address the concerns of the people communicating with him, he blew off all Codex criticism as invalid and refused to engage in any discussion whatsoever, even those who were being civil and had good arguments.

Oh, so Codex is a jilted lover then. Now it makes sense. I didn't realize it was personal. :D

he blew off all Codex criticism as invalid and refused to engage in any discussion whatsoever, even those who were being civil and had good arguments.

Yeah, because I bet you guys were all on your best behavior and being totally civil and everything. If half the thread was calling Vogel a Biowhore faggot he totally should have saw through that to the trenchant criticisms at their heart and addressed the very civil criticisms every one else was mounting.

I mean, I love the codex because it offers a very unique perspective on gaming that you can't find anywhere else, but you also have to admit that this forum does not give a good first impression to outsiders. So, honestly, I don't blame any developers that might come here and dismiss the entire forum out of hand. You kind of have to hang out here for a while before you get on everyone's wavelength and realize it's not the video gaming subforum of Stormfront that it might first appear to be.

What actually happened is that he released a game. This being the Codex, we discussed the game here. We never actually contacted him about it. (When does the Codex ever do that?) Then, over on his blog, he wrote a very snide and "oh look at these silly losers judging my game" post about why all criticism was wrong. His argument? Because his new way of designing things was getting him more sales. Anyone who uses that line of reasoning deserves every ounce of ridicule that ever comes their way.

I'm a big fan of his Exile days, but the man is beyond defending at this point as an artist. As a guy making money to feed his family? Sure, whatever. He's an alright human being.
 

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