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Interview Chris Avellone on time limits in games at Critical Path

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Brayko

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Pretty random to bring up SS2 in that comparison when I think plenty of games have timed powerups haha but still good to see him mentioning it.
 

Cosmo

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Don't forget that SS2's timed powerups makes sense in context : the random respawns and the fact that you're never totally safe are just as important, and it really gives life to your surroundings.
 

Major_Blackhart

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Meh, he's right in some respects that time limits can be important and can increase the feeling of the game, hence the entertainment value, tremendously.
However, it depends on what kind of time limit, or countdown meter.
FO was an example of one that worked well (the primary countdown, I never liked the secondary one).
The timers in Resident Evil were also excellent examples of how to add stress factors to a game.
 

Gozma

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SS2 as an example is kind of weak. Did anyone ever use any implants in SS2 besides the ones that increase inventory space? I was not exactly white-knuckling about having to drop my least important column of inventory garbage when the charge ran out. I think SS2 is more of a setup that could have been an interesting source of timer pressure but that never actually managed it.

An interesting timer in SS2 would have pushed me to make decisions about painstakingly clicking every single garbage can and annelid egg in the game for survival horror hors d'oeuvre
 

deuxhero

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Just make the time limit overtly generous so that the player will never fail to meet his goals if he doesn't totally slack off.

This actually reminds me of Metal Gear Solid, where there was a boss that had an on-screen timer, which, if it ran out... did absolutely nothing, because the air strikes were a ruse.
 

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I really fucking can't stand this Bethesdian "nonlinearity means player gets to do everything" bullshit, reaching Necropolis too late and finding nothing left but ghoul-corpses and muties was a powerful and unique gameplay experience for me and Avellone can suck my cock for wanting to take it away from me.
 

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I really fucking can't stand this Bethesdian "nonlinearity means player gets to do everything" bullshit, reaching Necropolis too late and finding nothing left but ghoul-corpses and muties was a powerful and unique gameplay experience for me and Avellone can suck my cock for wanting to take it away from me.

Uh watch the video? He's talking about game over time limits. The game is not over if the ghouls are dead.
 

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thoughts:

- A time limit entails a set amount of time prior to its elapsing. The obvious outcome is that the player needs be selective, critical and so on. But in itself, that also entails a certain hierarchical form from a developing side, since some possible options need by default (see time limit) be more beneficial than others. Be it in story progression, lore, character, or inventory/equipment management. If so, why bother adding superficial and shallow extras when (assuming it is them that are chosen rather than the 'good' ones) the developers would only be tarnishing the game's quality in the eyes of the player? If not, why take the time and resources to implement elements that really -are- of an interest and equal a value, only to force the player to skip them? You did after all force him to 'hurry hurry', leaving chunks of your budget behind, literally unseen. Not particularly flawless a logic. Prior to posting remarks such as those in the Colin McComb's interview, do reconsider how it is -exactly- this lack of logic that leads to what most of you deem a bad implementation. Rather a vain effort, trying to implement a fallacy logically.

- In a large, open, mutliple outcomes scenario done right, a big segment of the immersion comes from reactivity, C&C (and i don't mean dialogue, or at least not solely), and a terrain realistic enough to offer many a path (i.e. exploring, can't do that with a gun pressed in one's head) towards one destination. Ideally, said terrain is designed such so as to enrich the entire setting rather than pose as a mere basis. If, taking a pause here, one scripts less but more important side quests, emphasis on -side-, one could envision a timing element. Or any other form of pressure. Both because the player has the choice to circumvent it, and mostly because the player is being made aware that said pressure is a side effect of 'x' sidequest, rather than a developing decision to haunt him for the rest of the game. Which, had it been so, he would only experience that game in part, since, well, someone decided to pressure him. See above. Emphasis here on reactivity of the environment, of a reflection of one's actions -on- the terrain. Hero's story is but one story within it, the world flows.

- In a linear, story-driven scenario, where choice is restricted to the player's behaving/C&C through his character and is of an immediate outcome (unlike an open world, there will be no 'going back to x area' to see the outcome of your actions), it could work, provided that the notion of 'choice' is presented in such a way so as for the player to -understand- that nothing is left out content-wise. That returning to the game and rolling a different character, the difference will be evident solely in the flow of the story as forced by his own actions. There will be no concrete difference within the gaming world. Emphasis here on player's history/story development, zero or minimal reflection of one's actions -on- the terrain. Hero's story is the only story, the world is a passive medium for it to unravel.

Yet another issue with timed/pressured games as released so far arises at this point. Just how long can such a game last. And what kind of a budget and writers (as money need not always relate quality) are necessary to continue re-enforcing the pressure element without losing the player's interest in the story. Or degrading its quality.
For some of you, the obvious answer will entail something with water chips, certain altars of gaming gods and so on. I personally fail to see anything of worth in the way it was implemented. If i am allowed to continue playing -after- i delivered it, why bother in the first place...i don't want to go back to a desert bandits' cave hoping for some loot when i am weilding a laser minigun. There won't be any loot there for me in the first place. Why go back to anything, when the story is done with, my gear superb. Anyway, i think you get my point. Fallout was an example (in my mind) of a game mixing the two distinctly opposite categories i list above, hence the problem.
 

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I really fucking can't stand this Bethesdian "nonlinearity means player gets to do everything" bullshit, reaching Necropolis too late and finding nothing left but ghoul-corpses and muties was a powerful and unique gameplay experience for me and Avellone can suck my cock for wanting to take it away from me.

Uh watch the video? He's talking about game over time limits. The game is not over if the ghouls are dead.

It's "Game Over" for any quests in Necropolis; it's the same as the terribad low-intelligence dialogues in New Vegas, Obsidian clearly think locking player's out of content for their choices is a bad idea.
 

groke

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END OF RINE SILLY GOYIM!

So is there a significant difference between not being able to complete a side quest and not being able to complete the main quest? The player get's locked out of content "undermining the non-linearity of the game" either way, and that is specifically Avellone's problem with it.
 

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So is there a significant difference between not being able to complete a side quest and not being able to complete the main quest? The player get's locked out of content "undermining the non-linearity of the game" either way, and that is specifically Avellone's problem with it.

*shrug* I think there is. Go ahead and ask Avellone about this if you're interested.

Remember though that even Fallout had several time limits removed from it, including the invasions of all the other towns. I guess they figured players wouldn't care as much about a bunch of dead zombies.
 

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SS2 example is indeed weak, especially given that SS2 had more important, though less tangible time limit mechanics - I'm speaking of managing dwindling resources in the face of constant respawns. If almost no place lets you sit safely on your ass without constant risk of getting mortally brained with a pipe or at least suffering resource drain (healing, ammo, maintenance), then you really don't want to sit on your ass outside of those few places that let you, and even in those places you won't be sitting around more than you need to, because there is nothing to do there.

Then thare are other limits - not just powered items, but alarm panels, for example. Hacking them allows you to move around without having to worry about security systems (so you can hack or destroy turrets, pick off cameras and explore freely), but all hacking costs nanites. Then there are over time effects of psi and hypos. System shock doesn't make player feel pressed for time because it has implants. It makes player feel pressed for time because most of its timed mechanics ultimately tie into resource drain.

thoughts:

- A time limit entails a set amount of time prior to its elapsing. The obvious outcome is that the player needs be selective, critical and so on. But in itself, that also entails a certain hierarchical form from a developing side, since some possible options need by default (see time limit) be more beneficial than others. Be it in story progression, lore, character, or inventory/equipment management. If so, why bother adding superficial and shallow extras when (assuming it is them that are chosen rather than the 'good' ones) the developers would only be tarnishing the game's quality in the eyes of the player?
So that discerning between them is an important part of the gameplay.

Anyway, the best time limits are soft time limits. Don't shoot player in the head once timer runs out. Punch him in the face really hard - then smile nastily and reset the timer. Don't tell player that they should fear the timer, teach them to fear it.
Hard time limits only work in very short term.
 

Maiandros

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So that discerning between them is an important part of the gameplay

wait, not so easy :)

If so, why bother adding superficial and shallow extras when (assuming it is them that are chosen rather than the 'good' ones) the developers would only be tarnishing the game's quality in the eyes of the player? If not, why take the time and resources to implement elements that really -are- of an interest and equal a value, only to force the player to skip them?
 

Cowboy Moment

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Maiandros, there doesn't need to be a "most beneficial" option, especially in the context of an RPG. For one, what the most beneficial option is will likely change depending on the character build. Furthermore, benefits can be complicated - an immediate loss may result in gain further down the line, for example. Finally, you may want to make choices based on storyfag/roleplay reasons. Want a good ending with happy slides? Better buckle down and take it up the ass along the way.
 

DraQ

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So that discerning between them is an important part of the gameplay

wait, not so easy :)

If so, why bother adding superficial and shallow extras when (assuming it is them that are chosen rather than the 'good' ones) the developers would only be tarnishing the game's quality in the eyes of the player? If not, why take the time and resources to implement elements that really -are- of an interest and equal a value, only to force the player to skip them?
Because you need to build up the illusion. If you want a meaningful conundrum of this sort in your gameplay, you need both options look equally viable under all but closest scrutiny. There is no free lunch, you can't make, for example, a proper investigation quests if you can't throw the player off the right track.

At best you may randomize the right outcome between playthroughs while keeping all but minute details (possibly also randomized in regards to which minute detail shows the solution) the same.


Also what Cowboy Moment said.
 

Carrion

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it's the same as the terribad low-intelligence dialogues in New Vegas, Obsidian clearly think locking player's out of content for their choices is a bad idea.
Eh, the reason they didn't properly implement low-intelligence dialogue in NV probably had more to do with the enormous amount of dialogue in the game. It'd been a major pain in the ass to write separate lines for dumb dialogue, not to mention recording all that voice acting. Besides, NV locks you out of content all the time based on your choices.

Anyway, the best time limits are soft time limits. Don't shoot player in the head once timer runs out. Punch him in the face really hard - then smile nastily and reset the timer.
Or keep the timer running and continue to throw punches at an increasing rate until the player realizes that he should stop sitting on his ass and do something about it.
 

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i don't disagree with anything of what you guys say :)
But it is the type of RPG, the amount of budget and 'a' given team's philosophy/potential that makes the difference is the summary of what i was failing trying to say..or if you will, that it is not a mechanic anyone can just fit in anyplace.
Am willing to consent that it is just my preferences varying perhaps.
 

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