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Interview Dishonored Interview: Players Without Clues Getting Lost

Crooked Bee

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Tags: Arkane Studios; Bethesda Softworks; Dishonored

Games.on.net offers an interview with Arkane's Julien Roby, producer on the upcoming stealth-action game Dishonored. At first I dismissed it as simply "yet another Dishonored interview," but then I came across this article at Lazygamer.net:

One of the other games that’s not Borderlands that has my head spinning is Arkane Studios open-ended stealthy dystopian steampunk adventure, Dishonored. In my own time with the game at Gamescom, I was tremendously impressed at the many, many, many options available to complete just a single mission. In the Lady Boyle mission, I found that that at least one solution was practically handed to you – something that surprised me. Turns out it was for a reason.

In playtesting, Arkane found that people just weren’t all that able to go about finishing the mission using their own heads. without at least some sort of clue, people would just wander about aimlessly, hoping for the mission to complete itself.

“People would just walk around. They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn’t. They’d say ‘Okay, I can’t go upstairs.’ They wouldn’t do anything,” explained Arkane’s Julien Roby to Games.On.net.

As a result, you might find a few solutions pretty much handed to you on a silver platter – but fear not, those needn’t be the best solution. Often, the least obvious route is the most rewarding, and there will still be numerous angles from which to tackle any given scenario.

“We try not to lead the player by the nose, but at some point we found that if we don’t give a little information, people just get lost and don’t know what to do. It’s just overwhelming,” he said. “So we tried to add this element that gave just a hint, to help a little. But we try to do it as little as possible.”

As a case in point, while I loved every second I had with Dishonored at Gamescom, a friend from another publication hated it – because he just couldn’t figure out what to do.​

"Help me!! Can't find Caius Cosades!"
 

Jaesun

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This game at first sounded...OK. Now it's going the way of the retard.
 

Mrowak

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Project: Eternity
It only serves to prove that games from 2005-2011 period had contributed to rearing a generation of idiots. These people couldn't play the game because they were taught thinking in patterns instead of out-of-the-box creativity. Now someone has to reeducate them.

I am wondering about the broader social impact this type of rote-learning may have on individuals and communities.
 

Infinitron

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“People would just walk around. They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn’t. They’d say ‘Okay, I can’t go upstairs.’ They wouldn’t do anything,” explained Arkane’s Julien Roby to Games.On.net.

:patriot:
 

SuicideBunny

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Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
and thus the vicious cycle of incapacitation by quest compass and linear maps is complete again.
 

Infinitron

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I have to say though that I'm impressed by how honest Julien is about this stuff. A lesser company would not have allowed that to be publicized.
 

Jasede

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That's terrible. Let's time-warp back into 1992 when only somewhat smart people had a computer and games were made for them.
Maybe someone of us can suggest a no-handholding option? I was actually interested in this game before I heard this. I still am, but it's a bummer for real. Like a quest compass.
 

skuphundaku

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I have to say though that I'm impressed by how honest the article is about this stuff. A lesser company would not have allowed that to be publicized.
That gives me some hope that, on top of the "for retards, on a silver platter" solutions, Dishonored is going to have enough really cool ways to solve things, which should make it an interesting game, maybe even a great one.

As for the "for retards" gaming, it just confirms that my reasons to rage against the morons in modern gaming are justified(see my latest posts the PE vigilance thread).
 

Grunker

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Was to just about to state the vicious cycle of Suicide King. Companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own so companies dumbed down so people got used to it and couldn't figure out stuff on their own etc etc
 

Untermensch

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Jesus Christ........

How moronic..... The more options to complete the mission you give to the player, the harder it becomes for them to complete the mission????

Before this I still held some faith in humanity, but it's clear to me now: People are fucking morons.
 

hakuroshi

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Not only the players can't comprehend less obvious and more complex ideas but the developers may not be able to communicate such ideas anymore after decade of drawing quest compass instead of actually writing down coherent quest info. Speaking of Caius Cosades...
 

Black

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I warned you bros, I warned you about bethesda but you just didn't listen. I guess it's 1:1 for Diablo 3 now.
 

Jasede

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<- still can not believe how you can't find Caius Cosades. They fucking tell you where he is.
 

Johannes

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That's terrible. Let's time-warp back into 1992 when only somewhat smart people had a computer and games were made for them.
Maybe someone of us can suggest a no-handholding option? I was actually interested in this game before I heard this. I still am, but it's a bummer for real. Like a quest compass.
It's not about smartness really. Just look at the people on this board for example...

Problem is that people who've mostly played recent blockbusters, don't expect that there's any sort of detective process but that Awesome just happens when you walk around. Because, you know, that's how it works in every other game (that they've played). Games demanding something from you is just too foreign a thing to expect.
 

Infinitron

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I warned you bros, I warned you about bethesda but you just didn't listen. I guess it's 1:1 for Diablo 3 now.

Let's play the game first before we start handing out scores, hmm?
 
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This is one of the few AAA titles I have any interest in at the moment, and it's not all that hampered by this information. Just don't follow the most obvious thing that's pointed out to you.

Have to love the rampant idiocy this illustrates, though. What the fuck would these people do with Deus Ex? This exists outside gaming, though. People (at least Americans) have become so used to convenience and being coddled by every facet of life, anything that requires more than a token effort and fails to immediately fulfill power fantasies and grant ego blowjobs is disparaged and quickly forgotten. I blame mass-market appeal and, more so, the self-esteem movement and each generation sacrificing less than its predecessor for more reward (up until now, where short-sighted thinking over the course of decades leaves society approaching the brink of both cultural and economic bankruptcy after having largely robbed itself of the means to divert the course over the edge).
 

Rivmusique

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<- still can not believe how you can't find Caius Cosades. They fucking tell you where he is.
Reading dialogue/journal? What is this, the fucking 80's? Map marker, quest compass, exclamation mark on head and a golden trail leading to target are mandatory.
:M
In playtesting, Arkane found that people just weren’t all that able to go about finishing the mission using their own heads. without at least some sort of clue, people would just wander about aimlessly, hoping for the mission to complete itself.

“People would just walk around. They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn’t. They’d say ‘Okay, I can’t go upstairs.’ They wouldn’t do anything,” explained Arkane’s Julien Roby to Games.On.net.

As a result, you might find a few solutions pretty much handed to you on a silver platter
First I laughed, then I got a little sad, then I decided not to care about these people and laughed again.
 

Wirdschowerdn

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It is very troubling when so called "professional" game journalists can't even make their way through a game that doesn't stomp everything straight into their face. So troubling in fact that Arkane is now forced to insert hints into game lest "professional" reviewers (Remember, metacritic is serious business) will tear the game apart. I'm very saddened by this state of dumbfuckery.
 
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It only serves to prove that games from 2005-2011 period had contributed to rearing a generation of idiots. These people couldn't play the game because they were taught thinking in patterns instead of out-of-the-box creativity. Now someone has to reeducate them.


I am wondering about the broader social impact this type of rote-learning may have on individuals and communities.

Seriously. This is the kind of citizenry authoritarian regimes would kill for. Although I wonder if causation is the other way around. Maybe those games are like that because we've reared a generation of kids so habituated to obedience that they are incapable of questioning even a completely fictional authority. Especially given this quote:

“People would just walk around. They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn’t. They’d say ‘Okay, I can’t go upstairs.’ They wouldn’t do anything,” explained Arkane’s Julien Roby to Games.On.net.

I mean, Jesus. When I was growing up even the dumbest kid I knew would have at least tried it, if only to see what happened. But when I was growing up, I could get home from school and then run around with my friends until dinner. Now people will call the cops if you let your kids play in your yard without watching them constantly. Plus parents seem to be putting their kids into "college application" type extracurriculars much earlier, so kids have very little time in which to exercise autonomy.

If you treat kids as if they are incapable of thinking for themselves, they won't.
 

Vault Dweller

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<- still can not believe how you can't find Caius Cosades. They fucking tell you where he is.
Never underestimate how stupid people are.

I still remember the reaction to ToEE - a fairly simple and very easy game. The gaming media made it sound like it's some kind of puzzle complaining about the non-existent difficulty, things that were explained in the manual (like where can I rest, OMG I can't rest, the game is broken), and saying that none but DnD veterans will be able to figure it out. Fucking cunts, the lot of them.

Then we have Bloodlines. "Firearms are useless!" No, they aren't. You have to put fucking points in them, because that's how RPGs tend to work. There is a huge difference between 2-3 points in firearms and 8-10. Yes, the fucking points! Who knew, right?

Then we have Arcanum. "Firearms are useless!" :facepalm:

From Neogaf's recent discussion of Project Eternity:

"You misunderstand me; I'm talking about the player, not the player-character. A good RPG should allow a player to pick build and roleplay it satisfactorily. In Arcanum, for example, if you rolled a guns-build, you're screwed. It ends up being a "bad decision" on the player part. So if the game presents so many number of skills, all of those skills should be useful from start to finish of the game and those skills should represent viable builds. There shouldn't be "bad" builds."

Edit: So, if people are too dumb to figure out that you need to put points in a skill and figure out which stats and other skills support it, how the fuck do you expect them to find Caius Cosades?
 

abnaxus

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I have to say though that I'm impressed by how honest Julien is about this stuff. A lesser company would not have allowed that to be publicized.
You referring to Bethesda? It's them who call the shots.

<- still can not believe how you can't find Caius Cosades. They fucking tell you where he is.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080307074525/http://www.elderscrolls.com/codex/team_tesmoments.htm

Ken Rolston said:
Arena
I looked at the exposed boobs on the cover and said, "Phew. This is gonna be a stinker."
Over the years I've probably started Arena 20 times. Each time I had to relearn the arcane secrets of DOS memory management. Each time I loved the creaking doors, squeaking rats, and long swims in flooded tunnels. Only ONE time did I make it out of the first dungeon and wander around chattering with folks. And each time I abandoned the game, satisfied, and moved on to the next Flavor-of-the-Month.
In my declining years [NO, Mark, not quite yet], I can look forward to actually playing through Arena.

Ken is currently still looking for Dram Bero.

Also,
Todd Howard said:
In Daggerfall, the one thing I remember was this cutscene for when you could have sex with people you met. It eventually got axed and I still have the original art for it in a cabinet here. It was tastefully done of course.
:hearnoevil:
 

Infinitron

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abnaxus Yes, unfortunately, by modern standards, Bethesda is a relatively enlightened AAA game corp. Even with the FO:NV royalty fiasco.
 
Unwanted

Mikko Moilanen

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Where is the news? This is not even funny anymore. It stopped to be funny when years ago I tried WoW and someone told that "quest helper" addon is a must. I don't even wanna get started with various boss helper addons what were required to do "raiding". It was not all that bad though, at least I got laughs imagining an addon which would play the game on their behalf. But then I realised in BGs that it has been already done. The grinding bots.

On a side note, why they need to make the game "accessible" when every moron of the grand masses will play the game with playthrough help from internet?
 

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