Game News Feargie talks about WotC morality guidelines in NWN2

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Feargus Urquhart; Neverwinter Nights 2; Obsidian Entertainment

In <A href="http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=2628">this thread</A>, a concerned individual, whom we will call <i>Avin</i>, posted some concerns about <A href="http://www.wizards.com/">Wizards of the Coast</A>'s morality clauses and demands for <i>Happy Elf</i> content in their D&D products. Basically, how this will affect <b>Neverwinter Nights 2</b>'s themes. <b>Feargus</b> of <A href="http://www.obsidianent.com">Obsidian</a> replies with this:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote>I might be too optimistic, but we've had a good working relationship with WotC for a while. It was a little bumpy at first when I took over the RPG division at Interplay in 1996, since Interplay hadn't come through on many of the promises that it had made to TSR (company which created D&D and was bought by WotC). Since then I have worked with a bunch of different people from both TSR and WotC and I would like to think that it always went pretty well.
<br>
<br>
I can't promise that we can push them game somewhere both WotC and Hasbro don't want it to go. But, I think we can talk through a lot of the issues with them and get what we want to do into the game. Our big goal is to keep them constantly in the loop and talk to them as frequently as possible.</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
So, transexual, child killin', druid cult hookers are a possibility?
<br>
<br>
Thanks, <b>Avin</b>!
<br>
<br>
<b>PS</b> That <A href="http://forums.obsidianent.com">forum pool</A> is working again.

 

[Sammael]

Did Feargus work with the same WotC as other BIS developers whom I talked to?

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Who did you talk to? And why is WOTC wanting morality in their games?

 

[taks]

WotC has a morality code of sorts... good triumphs over evil, no transvestite, child-killing druid cult hookers, etc. if i had the link i'd post it as a reference, sammael probably does. much debate as to how much influence that "code" had on NWN, ToEE and, potentially, how much it would have had on the now almost forgotten jefferson from BIS.

and, no sammael, it must've been Warriors of the Coast he was referring to... right?

taks

 

[Briosafreak]

eheheheh teh funny stuff indeed

 

[Sammael]

Who did you talk to?

Mystary.

And why is WOTC wanting morality in their games?

Because they are owned by Hasbro. They wouldn't give a fuck otherwise (as shown by some of their pre-Hasbro work).

 

[Avin]

now i will bait 'em into put dogmeat in the game. a child killer dogmeat, of course.

 

[Elwro]

I thought those guidelines were Hasbro-induced, and were not necessarily products of Wotc's ill will.

 

[Spazmo]

Wizards has no will anymore--they're just an extension of Hasbro now.

 

[Gromnir]

the nightmare scenarios you folks got 'bout wotc guidelines is not gonna scare most nwn fans. they played hotu AFTER the guidelines was implemented. bio had to take a brothel out of hotu.

gosh.

*shrug*

the same chicken little threads concerning the wotc guidelines that was going on at atari boards and here and bis was also being spun at bio boards pre hotu. is tough for the nwn fans to get worked up again over this when it not seem like any real obstacle for bio.

HA! Good Fun!

p.s. we does recognize that uncle fergie is full o' crap. is no different than when he censored and revised the iwd2, monte cook ranger fiasco.

 

[MrBrown]

I'm more concerned about WotC's desire to keep status quo in their settings and force rules compliance in stupid places.

The only developer I've seen complaining about how some stuff is not possible at all with the moral guidelines is JE; all other devs seem to be saying that once they know the guidelines, it's easy to build stuff that works with them.

 

[JanC]

It's probably all for the good. Brothels are always full of stupid fed-ex quests in my experience.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Gromnir's apparent insistence that the swingeing (they really are, Gromnir, go read them) new Hasbro/ WoTC content guidelines will only mean that writing will improve as developers attempt Samizdat-style ways around certain issues is quite cute. Incorrect, of course, but cute.

Cheers
MC

 

[Volourn]

No, MC, your doosmday scenario is just plain silly with no factual backing at all. Uou making a mountain out of a mole hill because Hasbro dared to tell Troika (and BIO for that matter) to remove brothels and either make the children unkillable or nonexistent. Neitehr of these being included would have upped the maturity level of TOEE (or NWN OC). It's silly to think otherwise. But, heh, if you think being allowed to buy slaves and torture angels and be the cause of a baby's death is curbing anything you have just proved yourself wrong as per usual. Keep up the good work, little guy. :twisted:

 

[Anonymous]

I dont think it's really that games will be filled with omg bad stufz if there are no limits, but when limits are made, things are usually removed.

Let the game be made as it is, jeez.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

But Volly, I wanna be a childkilling mass murderer that has a penchant for fine whores!

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

What about being a fine whore with a penchant for childkilling mass murderers?

 

[Monte Carlo]

Vol, do you walk on your hands to facilitate you talking out of your arse?

Go and read the fucking guidelines. You can't really be bothered, can you? It would get in the way of you exercising your online Tourette's syndrome, and we can't have that.

I couldn't give a toss about brothels, the ability to garotte infants or anything else. What I could give a toss about is the invidious political correctness and "Good Must Triumph" diktats that make Disney look like Tarantino.

It's there in black and white.

 

[Spazmo]

Hey, MC, how about a link to these infamous guidelines? I'd like to see them for myself.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Voila!

WotC has established this set of standards for creating excellence in all areas of its business-whether manufactured or licensed products, promotions, marketing, or other services. Taken as a whole, these standards represent a tool for directing the creation of WotC products, promotions, and services so as to provide consistency in quality and content. RPGA Network submissions must adhere to these standards. As guidelines, rather than a strict code, they allow for some interpretation. Some game world lines may have more restrictive standards which may apply; this set represents the minimum standards for any WotC product. Check with Network HQ if you plan to write something for a WotC published AD&D game world. In all matters, Network HQ shall be the final arbiter on whether a submission is acceptable.

Spirit of these Standards:

WotC's maintenance of product, promotion, and service quality, as well as its concern for their content, involves three areas:
Provide guidance to writers, copywriters, artists, editors, graphic designers, managers, and marketing personnel on staff without needlessly constricting creativity.
Provide employees and freelance workers/services with guidance in regards to WotC's standards for quality and content.
Provide assurances that Content Standards are is an important consideration in the development of any WotC product.
To achieve these ends WotC, first and foremost, relies on the talents and judgment of in-house writers, editors, copywriters, artists, graphic designers, marketing personnel, and managers to oversee and control the contents of WotC products.

1. Good versus Evil

Insofar as WotC products, marketing, promotions, and services portray the conflict between "good" and "evil", such portrayals should encourage the ultimate triumph of good over evil. Though dramatic purposes may require that evil prevail over good for a time, the ultimate victory of good over evil is a desirable goal. Game products should assume that player characters or heroes are good and should never support evil as a preferred lifestyle.

2. Profanity

The gratuitous use of profanity and symbols considered vulgar by the contemporary standards of a product's target market is not acceptable unless integral to a character or story.

3. Dramatic Horror, Violence and Gore

The use of dramatic horror is acceptable in product development. However, scenes depicting excessively graphic gore are not acceptable.

4. Sexual Themes

Sexual situations-including abuse and pornography-will not appear graphically in art or text for salacious purposes.

5. Nudity

When depicting the human form-or creatures possessing humaniform features-gratuitous nudity, the depiction of genitalia, bare female nipples, and sexual or bathroom activity is not acceptable. WotC encourages the depiction of the full range of humaniforms from heroic fantasy heroes to variations of average men, women, and children. While human sensuality and sexuality may appear in WotC product, it should not be the focus-nor should it create disrespect for the human form. In short, WotC will not use sex to sell; WotC prefers to focus on marketing characters, moods and stories.

6. Prejudice

WotC celebrates diversity. Our products should not depict existing minorities, nationalities, social castes, religious groups, genders, lifestyle preferences, or people with disabilities as a group inferior to any other group.

7. Religion and Mythology

Current, real-world religions and religious groups and/or practices will not be portrayed in any way that promotes disrespect for these religions or their participants. All religions and religious practices in WotC products are purely fictional. The company does not endorse or promote any specific religion or religious practice.

8. Addictions

Addictions of any kind should not appear as glamorous or entertaining pastimes. Addiction, or the encouragement of addiction, should be shown as a dangerous habit with harmful effects.

Italics are mine, and are the ones that piss me off most.

Cheers
MC

 

[Volourn]

"the ultimate victory of good over evil is a desirable goal. Game products should assume that player characters or heroes are good and should never support evil as a preferred lifestyle."

Yeah, because we all know evil *always* lost in HOTU or TOEE, right, MC? Did you happen to mess those endings of those two games? Wowsers! Face it. You can pout and cry all you want; but rules or no rules they don't seem to be as heavily handed forced as you seem to imply. In essence, you don't knwow aht your talking about as facts - as in the actual games - sicne those rules were made - disprove your silly worries as the silliness they are.


"Go and read the fucking guidelines."

Perhaps, you should go chekc out how these 'strict" guidliens are being enforced ina ctual gaming products, little cryin' boy. Don't burst your eys or drown in your tears while you are at it.


"Good Must Triumph"

No. This ismply isn't true as both HOTU, and TOEE prove beyond any reasonable doubt. Nice try; though.


RP & MBH: LOL :twisted:


So, MC, I'm ready for more of crying. I have the mop already for you too.

 

[MrBrown]

Actually, in HotU's evil ending, there was a some small vague remark in the end about someone defeating and ending your evil rein or something.

No idea about ToEE.

 

[MrBrown]

BTW, MC, are you sure those are also the Hasbro guidelines and not just the RPGA Adventure publishing standard?

 

[Monte Carlo]

As usual, Vol, you engage the mouth before your addled, pea-sized brain. As a result, your stream of consciouness rant makes little sense and merely illustrates the foaming-at-the-mouth lunatic you surely are.

Both ToEE and HotU were in development during the re-drafting of the guidelines as a consequence of the Hasbro takeover. Some HoTU content therefore slipped under the radar...at least that's how the developers explained it. Heck, how much do they know? Go and check the forums, I think somebody even said that under the current rules HotU as it exists wouldn't be made the way it was.

Whether you agree if that's a big deal or not is for you to decide. Me? I think that if you kick off the creative process from the point of view that "Good must prevail" then I think then that is inherently binding.

For sure, Bioware has some muscle as a developer with Wizards/ Hasbro to get lattitude on these issues, but why do you think ultimately they went with their own IP. The increasingly tight-arsed attitude of the licencees might have been part of it?

Lastly, GB3/ The Black Hound/ Jefferson would never have got past these guidelines. Sawyer expressly stated that issues such as narcotics and slavery (and the protagonist's freedom to endorse/ enjoy and get involved in either) would have been nerfed. That's a direct example of the guidelines impacting on CRPG development.

Please, continue your rant now. Although it might be better if you actually entered the debate rather than wetting yourself.

Cheers!
MC

 

[Monte Carlo]

@ Mr Brown.

If you read the rubric on the Wizards site you'll see that those are the overall content guidelines for the D&D game. As we have learnt from both Troika and ex-BIS developers, they are aimed at electronic products too.

Cheers
MC