Company News Biowarian Profile: Brenon Holmes

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: BioWare

The controversial thread called <a href=http://forums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=358713&forum=84&sp=0>Please do give us turn-based combat!!</a> continues to generate priceless revelations from <a href=http://www.bioware.com>Bioware</a> developers and programmers. This time it's <b>Brenon Holmes</b>'s <i>turn</i> to demonstrate his wit and logic. Unfortunately, this Holmes doesn't use deductive method in his reasoning.
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<blockquote>Personally I love turn based games... but only to a point. They're great because in most cases the result of the encounter is based on your decisions (strategy-wise) instead of on your characters abilities, or luck (though these do play a role, your strategic choices can have a much larger impact than they do in a realtime simulation).
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It breaks down in multiplayer. Yes, it *is* possible to have turn based in multiplayer - the main issue is I think what people are looking for in a multiplayer game (in general/mass market appeal). Generally, in my experience, MP games tend to be a bit more on the hack and slash side of things... a bit more action oriented, less dialogue, less plot, more killin'. (It should be noted that this is just an opinion, I'm sure there are MP modules/severs that do not fit into this view.)
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Waiting for someone else to make a move, especially if they're controlling multiple characters (assuming an average PC party size, familiars, animal companions and the like) can quickly get rather vexing. Even if you put timers on how long someone can take, they're never 'right'... either too long or too short, in other words no one will ever be happy.
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That said, with sufficient auto-pausing features... TB can be almost indistinguishable from RT</blockquote>So <i>that's</i> why they hype their games as turn-based.
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[Ultron]

Can't you pause the game in multiplayer? Doesn't that make the whole "no waiting" issue moot?

 

[Anonymous]

So I take it being a total retard is hiring point at BioWare?

 

[StraitLacedDeviant]

With auto pause TB is indistinguishable from RT.

Is he on shrooms, or a really bad comedian. He cannot be serious.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I like that line about using your own strategic abilities in TB instead of those of your characters. Of course, in RT you always use abilities of your characters. Btw, isn't RT allegedly as tactical as TB?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Can't you pause the game in multiplayer? Doesn't that make the whole "no waiting" issue moot?

Yeah, it's rather interesting he makes a stance against turn based and then says that with the right system of autopausing, the game can become very much like turn based. Of course, for it to be indistingiushible from turn based, no one would be allowed to move in combat and everyone would have to be a melee fighter. The are the two most ovious simultaneous action events that end up in divergent cases for real time and turn based not being the same.

Hell, you might as well make a turn based game, then, and include "AUTO-TURN" and "AUTO COMBAT" buttons. That would be better than having real time attempting to pretend it's turn based and would still allow all the silly ADHD kiddies to drool away their time with as little thinking as possible.

Personally I love turn based games... but only to a point. They're great because in most cases the result of the encounter is based on your decisions (strategy-wise) instead of on your characters abilities

Actually, turn based represents your character's statistics much better than real time does, because turn based allows for meaningful initiative and sequence.

 

[Volourn]

he has a point,a nd then he doesn't have a point. It's true that in turn base that strategically (and tatically); it does depend on you. That's why I laugh when people say that turn base combat is soley based on your character's abilities. That's balony. Of coruse, the same is true in RT, or RT w/pause combat. It also depends on you tatically.

 

[Transcendent One]

Personally I love turn based games... but only to a point. They're great because in most cases the result of the encounter is based on your decisions (strategy-wise) instead of on your characters abilities, or luck (though these do play a role, your strategic choices can have a much larger impact than they do in a realtime simulation).

Meh, both systems rely on the player a little bit. Real time relies on your own dexterity and twitch reflexes whereas turn based relies more on using your brain to gain a tactical advantage over your opponents. Though I have no idea why he seems to think that in turn based your characters abilities don't dictate the outcome as much. That's a pretty stupid thing to say.

That said, with sufficient auto-pausing features... TB can be almost indistinguishable from RT

Don't worry, we'll get you some help eventually.

 

[taks]

actually, his RT/TB comment is correct... what is TB other than a pause between each round? neither did he say they were identical, btw... indistinguishable means something a little bit different... you guys just don't like people that say anything positive about RT..

i'm also failing to understand how he didn't use "the deductive method"... granted, his comments hopped around a bit, but that's not all that unusual on a message board nor does it indicate a lack of deductive reasoning...

taks

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

he has a point,a nd then he doesn't have a point. It's true that in turn base that strategically (and tatically); it does depend on you. That's why I laugh when people say that turn base combat is soley based on your character's abilities. That's balony. Of coruse, the same is true in RT, or RT w/pause combat. It also depends on you tatically.

That's true, turn-based may not solely based on a character's abilities, but the thing is, the situation is somewhat different. Wheter in turn-based or realtime, character planning is unexistant, that's why control is given to players.

The thing is, when you're playing a turn-based game, you're only deciding on behalf of your character which actions should be made. Your tactical sense is being driven by character's attributes and skills, and in turn, the character is basically succeeding on his own merits. Your personal skills do not have much of a saying in the matter. The only skill you're using - planning - is there to compensate the fact that characters themselves do not have said skill.

In a realtime environment, the problem is you're using your personal skills more. You're combining your planning with your own physical skill, and your own reflexes can overide those of a character; hence the problem.

Its kind of like being a soccer manager, and being a spirit that possess players on the field. The soccer manager moves the pawns; the spirit possess the players on the spot and lends its own skills to the players.

 

[taks]

Though I have no idea why he seems to think that in turn based your characters abilities don't dictate the outcome as much.

maybe because in the RT party based games, most of your battles are AI vs. AI - most people tend to control spell casting but allow their tanks to wail away at will. whereas in the TB games, it's AI vs. player for all of the combat. the player will make better choices than the AI, therefore the player has more of an influence on the outcome of the battle.

i'm just trying to think of what he may have meant... i don't necessarily agree with that.

taks

 

[Voss]

That word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Indistinguishable means you 'can't tell them apart.' They might be a little different, but you won't know because you can't distinguish between them.

 

[taks]

i know exactly what it means and clearly stated the exact same thing you just said. indistinguishable does not equal identical. as you state "they might be a little different" but if there were identical, they would not be "a little different"...

taks

 

[DamnElfGirl]

Honestly, I can see where he's coming from. As much as I love ye goode olde turn-based games, plenty of them didn't have anything for the non-magic-users to do except attack or defend. And defending was less than usless. Might as well just keep the fighters on attack, changing their targets from time to time.

If you're not going to give me turn-based combat with meaningful, interesting, and fun strategic choices, might as well give me real-time combat so I can get the darn fights over with and get back to the rest of the game. Of course, I'd prefer a game that lets me manipulate the environment to my advantage, attempt to make called shots against the enemy, protect my weaker characters with my tanks, etc., but designers just don't seem up to that these days.

 

[triCritical]

actually, his RT/TB comment is correct... what is TB other than a pause between each round? neither did he say they were identical, btw... indistinguishable means something a little bit different...

Just because you like G. W. Bush, does not mean you can make up new definitions like him. I did my bloody thesis on indistinguishable and it bloody means you can't tell them apart. You are going to tell me that you cannot tell apart a system like ToEE from NWN, which has sufficient autopause. That is ludicrous, not to mention that implicit rules that deal with the mapping between temporal, to action point or turn systems would be totally warped. Thinking this is a glaring superficial assumption and nothing more.

 

[Vault Dweller]

actually, his RT/TB comment is correct... what is TB other than a pause between each round?

A pause is not a turn. You can move freely during your turn and you obviously can't during your pause. Duh! All that moving around is what gives TB its tactical edge.

you guys just don't like people that say anything positive about RT..

See my explanation above. What he said was stupid and showed that he is unable to grasp a basic concept despite being in the industry.

i'm also failing to understand how he didn't use "the deductive method"

That was a joke referring to Sherlock Holmes and his famous deductive method.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Of course, I'd prefer a game that lets me manipulate the environment to my advantage, attempt to make called shots against the enemy, protect my weaker characters with my tanks, etc., but designers just don't seem up to that these days.

Did you play Silent Storm? You can do all of the above there.

 

[Jed]

The biggest problem I have with RT WITH TEH PAUSE! as has been exhibited in BioWare's many games is that the only truly viable method--as far as getting the most out of your character's abilities--is melee. Magic & other ranged combat is horrendously gimped in all of the IE games and NWN & its expansions.

 

[taks]

Just because you like G. W. Bush, does not mean you can make up new definitions like him

you did a bloody thesis and you still resort to such comments... for shame. i don't like GW Bush, btw. i hate bleeding heart liberals such as yourselves that write theses and are STILL incapable of clear, objective thought.

I did my bloody thesis on indistinguishable and it bloody means you can't tell them apart. You are going to tell me that you cannot tell apart a system like ToEE from NWN, which has sufficient autopause. That is ludicrous, not to mention that implicit rules that deal with the mapping between temporal, to action point or turn systems would be totally warped. Thinking this is a glaring superficial assumption and nothing more.

exactly where, einstein with a thesis, did i say that? all i said was that there is a difference between the word indistinguishable and identical. reasoning that perhaps he chose that word to specifically imply a slight, but unnoticeable difference in the styles when SUFFICIENT autopause features are present. nowhere, btw, was "sufficient autopause" defined so your NWN statement is actually the ludicrous one. not once did i even make ANY reference to comparing NWN RT with ToEE TB.

the last boo-boo, is akin to a straw man argument, btw. those with theses under their belts should at least be intelligent enough to not make that mistake in debate. come back and try again tricrit. i used to respect your opinion...

taks

 

[Volourn]

Mages and ranged weapons are gimped? Hahahaha. Someone doens't know what they are talking about. Heck, missle weapons were weakened in BG2 because they were considered "over powered' in BG1. Yet you claim theya re gimped? Spellcasters are very powerful in the IE and NWN; but yeah gimp is how one would describe them. Or not. Lame.

 

[Transcendent One]

Sorry, have to agree with Volourn on this one.

 

[Psilon]

Autopause is not going to make RTWP indistinguishable from turn-based, because whenever the game is unpaused everyone is still moving simultaneously. The whole point of turn-based is that when it's someone's turn, no one else moves. Even with interrupts, only the interrupting character gets to do stuff. The preempted character sits there and takes it.

 

[triCritical]

you did a bloody thesis and you still resort to such comments... for shame. i don't like GW Bush, btw. i hate bleeding heart liberals such as yourselves that write theses and are STILL incapable of clear, objective thought.

Well then ex-friend, bug off. I say that to all who hate me. My middle name is objective btw.

Oh, and to alway help out an enemy,

http://www.m-w.com/

exactly where, einstein with a thesis, did i say that? all i said was that there is a difference between the word indistinguishable and identical. reasoning that perhaps he chose that word to specifically imply a slight, but unnoticeable difference in the styles when SUFFICIENT autopause features are present. nowhere, btw, was "sufficient autopause" defined so your NWN statement is actually the ludicrous one. not once did i even make ANY reference to comparing NWN RT with ToEE TB.

Its clear really. If they are indistinguishable, then according to you, the observer, for all intents and purposes, they are identical. That is what the bloody word means.

To quote the appropriate definition,

lacking identifying or individualizing qualities

This means that you can not pick one system and say based on this empircal evidence or this particular clue, this is thing A, and this is thing B. Or to put it bluntly, you cannot discern TB from RT, and RT from TB. They are the same, only different in the mechanics of the engine which is hidden to you. But this in fact is the case. Hence, to make a long story short, you cannot resolve the two things as being anything but identical. If you could then they would be distinguishable.

In NWN I could set more pauses for every friggin action known to man. It could play like a stuttering game, that would drive the sketchy insane. Why not compare that to a toEE game, which is also based on a similar rule system. And what do we discover? That they are not indistinguishable. For one thing, that is not completely superficial, the rules have been completely mangled, and have no business, meaning they make no sense in one game. On other points, the mechanics are so obviously different that it begs whether one side of the argument is even thinking.

i used to respect your opinion...

Feeling is mutual.

 

[taks]

i think that's why he said 'with sufficient features.'

still speculating at his meaning, btw... in spite of tricrit's laughable criticism.

btw, VD, what i meant is that the pause is after each person's individual round (i used round since generally we're talking D&D which has both). i'm not trying to imply it has ever been implemented that way, either.

taks

 

[Snuffles]

Can't you pause the game in multiplayer? Doesn't that make the whole "no waiting" issue moot?

Depends, if we are talking the most recent bioware game with multiplayer, NWN, then all the persistant worlds you can't pause and in smaller multiplay it is usually limited to the DM. So, in general, NO.

Hell, you might as well make a turn based game, then, and include "AUTO-TURN" and "AUTO COMBAT" buttons. That would be better than having real time attempting to pretend it's turn based and would still allow all the silly ADHD kiddies to drool away their time with as little thinking as possible.

Did you play Silent Storm? You can do all of the above there.

You couldn't get it back to "auto-turn" or real-time mode fast enough in silent storm for my liking, I was often left annoyed when I wanted to just hit a "speed the hell up i'm waiting for a patrol to walk by my ambush" button and I was even more annoyed once I did get it back to speedy real time at the lack of a BG2 style pause on enemy sighted.

Magic & other ranged combat is horrendously gimped in all of the IE games and NWN & its expansions.

Magic users are where real time with pause works best. You pause upon seeing the enemy. If it is a weak enemy you can just task a melee minion to deal with it, unpause and you don't have to hit end turn again and again while the mage stands around doing nothing. If it is a strong enemy, you take the pause, think about what to do and queue (if you can) up a nice string of your spells, unpause and just hit pause when something happens.

Personally i'm a big fan of well made "real time with pause" as I want lots of control in the big battles and if I can't ignore the small battles then I don't need or want the control of them either. BG2 was great in that regard. I suppose well made "turn based with speed the hell up" would be nearly as good, but I prefer each side to be able to act at the same time.