Game News HotU wrap report at RPG Vault

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: BioWare; Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark

<a href=http://rpgvault.ign.com>RPG Vault</a> posted <a href=http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark>Hordes of the Underdark</a> <a href=http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/496/496654p1.html>wrap report</a>, courtesy of <b>Trent Oster</b>, <b>Darcy Pajak</b>, and <b>Tom Ohle</b>.
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<blockquote><b>Darcy Pajak:</b> We learned a lot from Hordes. First of all, we learned that the NWN toolset is very powerful, but places a couple limitations on the creative process for our designers. Despite the fact we have hundreds of possibilities for area and level design, our designers are limited by using a tile-based system. It is costly to create a unique room or area for the designers. In the future, we will not create generic tiles for the designers, but plan out levels, and build them in detail.
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The second thing we learned was that adding dramatic moments in the game using the game engine and designer-directed movement adds a lot to the atmosphere and gives the designers an additional tool to create top-notch stories. These cutscenes were retrofitted into the game engine, and caused some major headaches for us and the testing team during development, but in the end, they were worth it. In the future, we will continue to use these to bring people into the adventure.
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The third thing we learned was that the best stories from both our designers and the community are based around one person, and not an entire party. While playing RPGs with your friends is second to none for great fun, people need a story to revolve around them when they are playing it by themselves. It's also much harder to create an in-depth story when a bunch of people are in the game and you have to be conscious of the different styles of play. Everyone should be the hero, but it's difficult to create an effective story for parties of varying sizes and personalities. In the future, we will be sure to tailor the depth of story to the audience we intend for the product, as we did with the Hordes of the Underdark expansion.</blockquote>
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Wow, they needed 3 games to learn that the toolset has limitations. Nothing gets past the Bio boys.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rpgdot.com">RPG Dot</A>

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

First of all, we learned that the NWN toolset is very powerful, but places a couple limitations on the creative process for our designers. Despite the fact we have hundreds of possibilities for area and level design, our designers are limited by using a tile-based system. It is costly to create a unique room or area for the designers. In the future, we will not create generic tiles for the designers, but plan out levels, and build them in detail.

I don't think tile-based engines and their toolsets are the ones responsible for the lack of creativity. They are limiting to an extent, but creativity can arise despite having to work with limited resources such as a tile-based toolset. Community-based modules proved that. From new features to possibilities, there are modules out there which surpass NWN's OC.

The second thing we learned was that adding dramatic moments in the game using the game engine and designer-directed movement adds a lot to the atmosphere and gives the designers an additional tool to create top-notch stories.

Er, didn't they already learned this going from Baldur's Gate 1 to 2? 2 used much more cutscenes than its predecessor to move the story forward.

The third thing we learned was that the best stories from both our designers and the community are based around one person, and not an entire party. While playing RPGs with your friends is second to none for great fun, people need a story to revolve around them when they are playing it by themselves.

That is what an RPG is all about, after all.

It's also much harder to create an in-depth story when a bunch of people are in the game and you have to be conscious of the different styles of play. Everyone should be the hero, but it's difficult to create an effective story for parties of varying sizes and personalities. In the future, we will be sure to tailor the depth of story to the audience we intend for the product, as we did with the Hordes of the Underdark expansion.

Its not hard to tailor a story to several simulataneous players. Just make it so no one is a legendary hero, and you've got it. Thats what made Wizardry, and party-based dungeon crawlers games interesting. No character was more than the next, all worked towards a common goal. When a story isn't focusing all its events on one single person, no one will be more than the others. Making a game where one character is the head honcho is what brings it down. I'm not sure how real role-players felt playing BG online, but it probably was hell to decide who was the might Bhaalspawn that would make decisions for them during the game, and would get those nifty powers.

 

[dagamer667]

Ooh, it took 3 games and several years for them to realize that tile systems absolutely suck in 3d? Their mental acuity knows no limits! Every city or village have the painful pre-fab look of the previous one. If you have seen one town, you've seen them all. That's one part Morrowind got absolutely right. Buildings aren't always too different from each other, but several regions have distinct architectural style. But you can't expect that from an outdated engine crippled by the tile-based design.

Dramatic moments and cutscenes? Hard to take them seriously when even the most basic lipsynching is nonexistent and I'm not even mentioning the advanced features like animations (no, random head bobbing doesn't count) or the ability to skip the torturous experience. I'm sorry but NWNish cutscenes were acceptable around 97, but it's not cool in 2003. Even then, developers used pre-rendered videos for things the engine couldn't do at the time.

The third paragraph is the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Such mindset should be grounds for termination from ANY position that has to do with design. Is this bozo saying that PST's story suffered from TNO being accompanied by the likes of a floating skull or a HARDCORE pyromaniac? NOT ONE BIT! Heck, Morte was one of the most memorable characters in the game. So was Vhailor, despite not talking much. I guess if they can't balance out the attention and the development for each character, it automatically means that having a party is just bad. In KOTOR it was either Bastila's whining or Carth's whining with the rest of the characters staying in the background. Games like PST or Anachronox did a pretty good job of giving each character just the right amount of time under the spotlight without it being shallow or annoying.

From the technical standpoint, having a party (whether accumulated over the course of the game or created outright) gives the designers much great freedom over the game (personally, I prefer to have NPCs join up as you play the game). Having only one or two characters eliminatates a lot of tactical gameplay because every character should be able to beat the game. NWN had to have a lot of overpowered items like golden circlets or freedom cloaks in order to enable classes like fighters to defeat spellcasters that prey on the low will/reflex saves fighters have. In typical party of five or six characters, this would not spell a quick "game over" like it would if the warrior was alone or accompanied by a brain-dead wizard (the type that charges into the fray holding his quarterstaff over his head in spite of having at least three fireballs and a few MMs at the ready).

"In the future, we will be sure to tailor the depth of story to the audience we intend for the product, as we did with the Hordes of the Underdark expansion." Can't have them complicated stories when the game is made for people ages 6-12 like HOTU.

 

[Transcendent One]

My response to first paragraph:
Yes, better late than never I suppose.
Second paragraph:
If your stories rely on cutscenes to be topnotch, your game doesn't deserve to exist.
Third paragraph:
This is the only paragraph I agree with. I think the story should always revolve around the player, even if it eventually pulls in other characters as well. If from the start the problem isn't the player's, it just makes me feel forced into the old errand boy style of play which I hate so much. However tailoring story to the audience the game targets should be done carefully. I mean if you make a game for pre-teens, but you add in a deep story, it will at least make the game seem half decent.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I don't think a tile-based system is a "problem". One of the things I'm finding in ToEE (which uses the Baldur's Gate "background painting" technique) is that I don't feel like I'm in the game. Sometimes I see a chest or barrel or something lying on the floor and think "Yay! Interactivity!". Then I click on it and find out it's part of the painting I'm walking on.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Ooh, it took 3 games and several years for them to realize that tile systems absolutely suck in 3d? Their mental acuity knows no limits! Every city or village have the painful pre-fab look of the previous one. If you have seen one town, you've seen them all. That's one part Morrowind got absolutely right. Buildings aren't always too different from each other, but several regions have distinct architectural style. But you can't expect that from an outdated engine crippled by the tile-based design.

Silent Storm uses tiles, I think. The problem with the tiles in NWN is that they're freaking HUGE. When you have tiles that large, there will be problems with what you can do without making lots and lots of specific tiles.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Dramatic moments and cutscenes? Hard to take them seriously when even the most basic lipsynching is nonexistent and I'm not even mentioning the advanced features like animations (no, random head bobbing doesn't count) or the ability to skip the torturous experience. I'm sorry but NWNish cutscenes were acceptable around 97, but it's not cool in 2003. Even then, developers used pre-rendered videos for things the engine couldn't do at the time.

Yeah, I thought the same thing when I read that. If you're going to do cutscenes, at least have the decency to spend a bit of time and go kewl FMV and all. One of the funnier parts of the whole cutscene business to me in HotU was when they went to an extreme close-up of the Valsharess's heaving bosom for some reason or another. I can't imagine why. All you saw were a bunch of crude polygons. It looked more like a work of abstract art than a person. I don't know if they were trying to turn on guys with 20/200 vision who lost their glasses or what.

From the technical standpoint, having a party (whether accumulated over the course of the game or created outright) gives the designers much great freedom over the game (personally, I prefer to have NPCs join up as you play the game). Having only one or two characters eliminatates a lot of tactical gameplay because every character should be able to beat the game. NWN had to have a lot of overpowered items like golden circlets or freedom cloaks in order to enable classes like fighters to defeat spellcasters that prey on the low will/reflex saves fighters have. In typical party of five or six characters, this would not spell a quick "game over" like it would if the warrior was alone or accompanied by a brain-dead wizard (the type that charges into the fray holding his quarterstaff over his head in spite of having at least three fireballs and a few MMs at the ready).

Single character is very cool for a SP RPG to me, probably the best way to go overall. It's easier to focus on your one character and have an interesting game, I agree with him on that part. You just have to have the right system. D&D is not the right system for a solo game. It's made for fighter + thief + cleric + mage.

 

[Volourn]

Nah. Thieves are unneeeded. My best pnp parties didn't have them.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Just thought I should inform everyone that the NWN OC sucks.

kthnkbye.

 

[Dgaider]

Not that some criticism isn't great and quite necessary (as that is part of the point of the exercise, after all), but I can't help but grin at the irony of some folks talking about what they learned by actually doing being mocked by some others who seem to think they already know everything.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It is true that these fine folks got mocked by people who don't have any experience in the industry, but this is the way of the internet.

Seriously though, these people weren't talking about some overly complicated design elements and such, that were misunderstood and mocked because of it. They were talking about things so basic that they should have been asked that during the interview. Anything more basic would be "I learned what RPG stands for".

Common, don't tell us what you think about our comments, tell us what you think about their comments.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Well, I don't claim to know everything, even though I do.

But seriously, I found entertainment from NWN, but it came from fan made modules. I just could NOT force myself to even stomach the OC. It just felt too stereotypical and went to crap right at the end of Act 1. I never even moved a character two steps into Act 2. Eventually though, even the fan-made modules couldn't keep me interested. I personally feel turn based combat would have made the game much more stellar as well as a better OC. But these are my opinions and they are not gonna change anything. I just hope you guys do much better with your next RPG.

 

[Volourn]

So... Otaku, you saying that if NWN ws turn based you would suddenly like the OC's story, characetrs, and role-playing chocies? Weird... Like I always say, some people actually honestly beleive turn base combat = role-playing = good story. WOWSERS! :shock:

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Not that some criticism isn't great and quite necessary (as that is part of the point of the exercise, after all), but I can't help but grin at the irony of some folks talking about what they learned by actually doing being mocked by some others who seem to think they already know everything.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Fire >> It's hot! Don't touch it or you get burnt!

- OR -

The world is round. I've never seen the whole world. I've never been into space, I've never sailed around the globe, but some guys have, and they say it's round. I can either believe them, accept what they've "learned by doing" and use that knowledge to my advantage OR, I can ignore them, build a spaceship, fly into space and see for myself.

Sometimes it's cheaper if you listen to others.

Most of what you "learned" could've been understood had you listened to those around you in the first place. Not us, other designers, playing other games yourself, finding out what works and what doesn't. Tile based systems have been in games for yonks, as has the "painted background". Both work in cases, and in some cases both have not worked. I think it depends more on who's behind the system and how the particulars of that were made, as opposed to the system itself.

Second, in-game developer controlled "moments" were in Fallout back in '97.

Third, NWN isn't the first computer game to have a story?

As someone once said on these very forums:

There are a few lessons to be learned from all good games.

Now go stick your head in the fire and see if you get burnt.

 

[Dgaider]

The world is round. I've never seen the whole world. I've never been into space, I've never sailed around the globe, but some guys have, and they say it's round. I can either believe them, accept what they've "learned by doing" and use that knowledge to my advantage OR, I can ignore them, build a spaceship, fly into space and see for myself.

OR, apparently, you could have laughed at the guys who just came back from the moon and told them they could have saved themselves the trip... you could have told them what being on the moon was like because you'd seen it through a telescope once.

No, no, I'm not saying that there isn't plenty to be learned from NWN and that obviously not all of it went like we'd hoped, but some of these comments... like with the tileset system: we knew that there would be drawbacks in using it, sure. There were also advantages, like the idea that areas would be easily created with the toolset so that having the skills to model an entire area from scratch wouldn't be necessary for the average user (the campaign *gasp!* not being the entirety of our focus). And, yes, we considered using smaller tiles... duh, do ya think? But we had our reasons and thought we could pull off a reasonable balance and it didn't end up working as well as it hoped... and the idea of a post-mortem is to address those realizations so we learn from them.

I know how fun it is, however, to use hindsight now and suggest that six or seven years ago we should have been able to look at Fallout (great example, by the way) and all the projects out there which were as ambitious as NWN was and just should have known right off the bat what would end up working best and what wouldn't.

I mean, c'mon... I know you guys have an opinion on how the game turned out and how good you think it was or wasn't and that's completely your perogative, but don't try talking like you (or any game out there, for that matter) have all the answers. Maybe Trent and Darcy didn't rip open their shirts and tear at their chests enough for your taste, but the lessons learned that it describes are real and honest... over-simplify and mock them at your own peril.

Cue the thunder and lightning if you wish. I guess since this is directed at nobody in particular it will probably be taken personally by everyone. Oh well.

 

[DemonKing]

OR, apparently, you could have laughed at the guys who just came back from the moon and told them they could have saved themselves the trip... you could have told them what being on the moon was like because you'd seen it through a telescope once.

Hey Dave - that's BS and you know it - everyone knows the lunar landings were staged on a Hollywood back lot. Sheesh.

Seriously though, I think that for some of us the official NWN OC (and to a lesser extent, its expansions) suffered a bit because it was constructed with a toolset designed primarily to be simple for a layperson to use. For the average single-player gamer, we don't care how easy the toolset is to use - we want a great, atmospheric gameplay experience - so naturally it was a little disappointing for us after the IE games to see simplistic and oft-repeated tilesets used instead of the many unique dungeons, cities and environments of the IE games.

As for the use of in-game cut-scenes. I like 'em - although nothing beats a good cinematic. I am a bit disappointed with the current trend to represent everything as pages on a book - it was interesting when they did it first in IWD but it has been over-used now and it looks a bit cheap compared to for instance, the fantastic opening and closing sequences in the original BG. Now, I know the cinematics don't come cheap, so good in-game cutscenes work fine for me.

As for focus on a single player - I don't agree. I am a big fan of multi-party CRPGS like the Wizardry or IWD series. I don't really enjoy playing games with single characters as much, although single-character plus NPCs is a good substitute. Single-player CRPGS without NPC party-members feel more like a FPS to me then capturing the team-based nature of original PnP CRPGs.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

There were also advantages, like the idea that areas would be easily created with the toolset so that having the skills to model an entire area from scratch wouldn't be necessary for the average user (the campaign *gasp!* not being the entirety of our focus).

Well, instead you have the issue of having to make tilesets from scratch if you want a certain look to an area that isn't supplied. Even then, you run the problem of the new tileset having the generic look like all the other tilesets.

Even then, you have to ask yourself if making the editors easy to use is a good thing. Sure, there's tens of thousands of modules on NWVault to download because the editors are easy to use - but how many are worth downloading? Is quantity really that important?

And, yes, we considered using smaller tiles... duh, do ya think? But we had our reasons and thought we could pull off a reasonable balance and it didn't end up working as well as it hoped...

I think a better, yet still easy, system would have been to do layers. Ground layer, wall layer, trinkets on walls layer, and a roof layer. That would have allowed you a lot more flexibility in crafting things that looked a lot different.

I know how fun it is, however, to use hindsight now and suggest that six or seven years ago we should have been able to look at Fallout (great example, by the way) and all the projects out there which were as ambitious as NWN was and just should have known right off the bat what would end up working best and what wouldn't.

Just for kicks, I'm curious what you all thought of Vampire: the Masquerade - Redemption and what the problems were with that title, since NWN seems fairly similar to that one. What issues do you think NWN fixed from that title?

Maybe Trent and Darcy didn't rip open their shirts and tear at their chests enough for your taste, but the lessons learned that it describes are real and honest... over-simplify and mock them at your own peril.

Come on, like it's easy to take anyone named "Darcy" seriously after Married with Children. :D

Though, props to the guy who came up with Marcy marrying someone with the last name of D'Arcy.

Cue the thunder and lightning if you wish. I guess since this is directed at nobody in particular it will probably be taken personally by everyone. Oh well.

Can we throw in the 75MPH winds, with gusts up to 120MPH? We can even cue the Scorpions song, because I love that song.

 

[Rosh]

Gaider...Gaider. I know where I've heard that name before.

Oh, yes. Now I recall where.

A stunning display of the typical BioWare cluelessness while self-fellating.

I think I'll take anything you say, hang yourself proven that your design "abilities" and knowledge are in doubt, with a shovel. Given that people entrust you with design responsibilities (for some reason I can't fathom), and that you've displayed a laughable example of such, I will further just sit back and perhaps snicker when I read your waffling through design discussions.

And, yes, we considered using smaller tiles... duh, do ya think? But we had our reasons and thought we could pull off a reasonable balance and it didn't end up working as well as it hoped...

It sounds more likely that it was the result of not bothering to change it from the original graphical design through the five years the game was in development.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I mean, c'mon... I know you guys have an opinion on how the game turned out and how good you think it was or wasn't and that's completely your perogative, but don't try talking like you (or any game out there, for that matter) have all the answers. Maybe Trent and Darcy didn't rip open their shirts and tear at their chests enough for your taste, but the lessons learned that it describes are real and honest... over-simplify and mock them at your own peril.

No one is saying they aren't being honest, but there's something wrong in their appraisal. Its one thing to say a tilebased engine doesn't provide the same artistic freedom as an engine which is based on individually-crafted areas (like the IE engine, for instance). But claiming its limiting in the creative process, followed by saying it allows for hundreds of possibilities is contradictory at best. Not forgetting i still don't see how tile-based affects the creative process. I think the problem here is that they're looking at NWN's engine and associating its problems with the fact that its tile-based, when this kind of association shouldn«t be made. Tile-based engines can provide as much creative freedom as a non-modular engine. I can remember one or two things in NWN's engine which were due to the engine and not because it was tile-based. One, when you look at other tilebased systems, you'll notice how there's the ability to see inside buildings without the need to load each and every one of them. Its basically a temporary removal of the upper level of the construction (the roof), which remains that way until the character leaves the construction. It was a pain having to enter small abodes and having the game load that smalish area. More of a pain if i accidentally clicked to enter again Two, possibily to do with the afforementioned problem, the game didn't had the kind of environmental possibilities as, say, Arcanum. I could sneak up and enter people's houses trough the window. I could use a ranged weapon to destroy light sources on the street to either steal or kill silently and stealthly. I couldn't do this in NWN, specially regarding constructions. Which was a pity.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Volourn, read what I wrote. I said TB combat plus a better written OC. Enough with the 'conspiracy theory' crap already. It's getting old.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I got a little more time, so I just wanted to point out why 3D tiles aren't bad things.

Tiles actually have a number of advantages when they're smaller, too. You could make a tile for a wooden wall(and only a wooden wall) that's got it's own unique statistics. You can do things like how many hit points that wall would have, what resistances to certain attacks it might have, how easy it is to scale climb and so forth.

In terms of D&D, you could have a field in the tile data for the odds of skill use on the thing. You could have a calm water tile with a swim skill rating making it easy to do or a white water rapid with a hard swim skill rating. The wooden wall, of course, would have no swim skill rating at all but might have an easy climb skill rating. By setting up hook attributes for skills and other attributes within the tile itself, you can easily define an interactive world that's fairly consistant. Nearly all thin, wooden walls would react the same way to a fireball or even a character's strength. All you have to do is just select the tile in the editor and plop it on the map.

Tiles make a game much, much easier to define interaction with those sections of the environment. You can't just say because NWN's implimentation of tiles was bad so all tile systems in 3D are bad. Tiles have a lot going for them, including the ease of map creation, that a lot of games just didn't quite explore.