Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Editorial Game Design: Never change anything ever

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,343
Tags: Jeff Vogel; Spiderweb Software

<a href="http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/04/why-nobody-should-ever-change-anything.html">Jeff Vogel has blogged</a>:
<br>
<blockquote>There is no change you can make to your games, no matter how clearly obvious or beneficial, that will not anger some of your fans. If the change doesn't make someone angry, it didn't matter.
<br>
[...]
<br>
As you can see, I have changed just about everything. Repeatedly. Graphics. Style. Interface. And the game system underneath. Everything has been redone, and, as I learned more, redone again. And while not all of the changes have been beneficial (and were then re-changed in later games), the process has been one of evolution toward betterness.
<br>
[...]
<br>
And every change earned me angry e-mails and lost customers. I've gotten more, "Why have you forsaken me? I am lost to you forever." E-mails from customers than I could ever count.
<br>
[...]
<br>
Case Studies From My Own Experience
<br>
Switch From A Flat View to a 3-D Isometric View -
<br>
Switch From Hand-Drawn To Rendered Graphics -
<br>
Removing the Need to Identify Magic Items
<br>
Removed the Need to Carry Around Ammunition For Bows
<br>
[...]
<br>
Now the more contrary among you might be thinking, "Well, maybe people complain because your so-called improvements actually suck. How about that? Huh? Huh?" Not likely. Historically, when I made major augmentations to the engine, I've seen increases in sales. If the changes I made sucked, I would not still be in business. So give me the benefit of the doubt.</blockquote>
<br>
Deep insightful thought or flat-out wrong? You decide!
<br>
<br>
Thanks <b>newsman</b>!
 

aboyd

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Messages
843
Location
USA
His argument essentially appears to be "Hey, I'm McDonald's and sell billions of burgers to fat people, so obviously I must sell amazing food!"
 

SerratedBiz

Arcane
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
4,143
In my favorite RPGs in the last few years, like Mass Effect and Fallout 3, most of the fights involved shredding bozos. And that's the way we like it.

I think this could be seen as a kick on teh nads for the usual suspects.
 

Fowyr

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
7,671
Switch From A Flat View to a 3-D Isometric View -
Switch From Hand-Drawn To Rendered Graphics
I was perfectly OK with Exile 3 (not early Exile1 and 2) graphics. Avernum look really worse. Semi-anime character portraits - FAIL
Removing the Need to Identify Magic Items
FAIL
Removed the Need to Carry Around Ammunition For Bows
For slings - ok, but bows - epic fail. My characters don't produce arrows from thin air.
Now the more contrary among you might be thinking, "Well, maybe people complain because your so-called improvements actually suck. How about that? Huh? Huh?" Not likely.
Vogel, I love your games, I play all your games, but you are idiot!!!

Historically, when I made major augmentations to the engine, I've seen increases in sales. If the changes I made sucked, I would not still be in business. So give me the benefit of the doubt.
MWAHAHAHAH! Arrows and identification - not engine decisions, they gameplay decisions! And I want my FOOD BACK. And this funny eating sound. NOW!!!!
Compare Exile and Avernum, Nethergate and Nethergate Resurrection - many encounters now sucks ass.
 

BearBomber

Scholar
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
566
It's funny when someone talks in an iterview like some big fish and you have to go to Moby Games to know who the fuck that guy is.

So could anyone explain to me why should I care about what have he said?
 

Fowyr

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
7,671
Because this fucktard one of the last guys, who make proper CRPGs.
 
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
6,927
Judging from what he just shat out of his mouth, he was one of the last guys who make proper cRPGs.
 

shihonage

Subscribe to my OnlyFans
Patron
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
7,157
Location
location, location
Bubbles In Memoria
Mr. Vogel equates increased sales with increased game quality. Doesn't mean that it's not true, but also doesn't mean that changing those features was what got him better sales.

It could be just his growing exposure, or his games being slowly more streamlined to appeal to a less niche audience.

Since making games is his only source of money, sales are the most important factor to him, by which he measures quality of his games.

A game is "better" if more people buy it. That is of course not true, as we've seen with more mainstream titles. But it is "better" for him, because he gets more money.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Oh, another stupid Jeff Vogel blog post, who would have thought.
 

Agent5

Novice
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
5
Location
Pennsylvania
While Vogel does seem to equate sales to quality to some degree or another, I'm not sure he sees it as a direct correlation. Nethergate, and it's remake, Nethergate: Resurrection, are two games he seems incredibly fond of, and as a high water mark in his career creatively, but they sold like ditch water.

As a full time independent developer, though, his income is understandably his prime concern, so so long as a game sells I can't imagine he would be overtly concerned with the quality of the content, as long as he didn't mind making it.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
There is really just only one game designer who doesn't talk bullshit, and actually has delivered good games through many years:

David W. Bradley
 
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
8,268
Location
Gritville
Major_Boobage said:
Melcar said:
Even the name sounds retarded. Vogel. What the fuck is a Vogel?

Unradscorpion said:
It's a nazi bird.

Vogel is the dutch word for bird.

While we're on the subject...

metzger.png
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom