Game News Fallout: Vegas Interview and 'How it must be different'

[DarkUnderlord]

Tags: Fallout: New Vegas

It has begun. ShackNews are first out of the gate <a href="http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1113">with their Pete Hines interview</a>:
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<blockquote><b>Shack: When did Bethesda start thinking about a Fallout spin-off?</b>
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Pete Hines: It's something that we've discussed at night for a while, and just had talked about doing. And we said, well, if we're going to do this, we want to do it with the right kinds of folks, and the folks that could do right by it, have the right kind of experience, the right background.
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[...]
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<b>Shack: So you asked them for a pitch, as opposed to pitching them a project.</b>
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Pete Hines: Correct, correct. And honestly, generally speaking, that's how it works best, which is: you've gotta have people who are really vested in the idea that it's their creation. "This is what makes us excited. If we could do this, this is what we would want to do."
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[...]
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<b>Shack: You guys trademarked the Fallout name for movies and television recently. Was that related to a specific project, or..?</b>
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I can tell you, we've gotten a ton of interest about those kinds of things, not just with Fallout, but over the years. And it was just a, "Let's make sure that we're protecting what is ours and not letting somebody else do anything with it." So it's more of that, and it is not in response to any specific project or initiative or anything in particular.</blockquote>
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<a href="http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=9623">Official XBAWX Magazeen have their article</a> on how Vegas can improve on Fallout 3:
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<blockquote>1. Grenade Throwing
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2. Less Isolation
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3. Better Ending: After battling your way through the wasteland, discovering what happened to your father and finally resolving the main plotline, you're rewarded with... some artwork slides. Huh?
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4. No 'Dead Quests': Having to find 30 Quantum Nuka Cola bottles would have been a lot easier if you hadn't been happily selling them off throughout the early stages of the game when you didn't know any better.
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5. Stronger DLC</blockquote>
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Yes. Fallout can be improved by removing the end-game slideshow, making more obvious quests and getting rid of the isolation from the Post-Apocalyptic environment. Somebody shoot OXM now.
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Spotted @ <a href="http://www.nma-fallout.com">They now have further purpose in life</a>

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

Hey DU, fix my internet plz.

 

[bhlaab]

Actually I agree with everything oxm put in that list.

-Fix the terrible VATS aiming
-Have towns with more than 5 people in them
-Have a plot that makes sense and ends in a satisfying way
-No more awful "fetch me 30 whatsits" quests
-Don't upload broken DLC

 

[The Feral Kid]

"We really liked their idea for what it is they wanted to do, and we just said, "Okay."

I think we tried very hard not to put much in the way of parameters on them. To let them kind of come up with the idea. So we didn't go to them and say, we want a game that is set here, and--we didn't do that. We said, "What would you do with it? If we were going to do this, what would you guys like to do?"

So you asked them for a pitch, as opposed to pitching them a project.

That's all I wanted to hear.

Obsidian's record so far is disappointing given their background, but anything from them regarding Fallout is welcomed compared to Beth. If Fallout: New Vegas is going to be any different its totally up to Obsidian, not Hines or Beth. As was the case with Kotor 2. Working on a new game of an established franchise, with an existing engine. They have full creative control of the game, and it isn't just a project handed down to them together with guidelines on how to do it. If the game is a mess it will be Obsidian's fault. If it succeeds all credit goes to them (although the Codex will blame Beth if it fails, and praise Obsidian if it succeeds). If the game fails, no big deal, the series was already dead. If it is even remotely decent, then that's an improvement from the current state. Win-win situation and absolutely nothing to lose. But I can't say I'm not surprised (positively) for the first time by Beth with their attitude and idea to go ahead with this.

My only problem with the project is that it will be based on the Fallout 3 engine.

 

[filogreek]

3. Better Ending: After battling your way through the wasteland, discovering what happened to your father and finally resolving the main plotline, you're rewarded with... some artwork slides. Huh?

Yes. Fallout can be improved by removing the end-game slideshow

It is only artwork slides, not an epilogue-thingy like the other games. These guys want a better ending, not to remove it altogether.

 

[Tails]

I won't believe in that until I see it.

And the rape goes on folks!

 

[Azrael the cat]

"We really liked their idea for what it is they wanted to do, and we just said, "Okay."

I think we tried very hard not to put much in the way of parameters on them. To let them kind of come up with the idea. So we didn't go to them and say, we want a game that is set here, and--we didn't do that. We said, "What would you do with it? If we were going to do this, what would you guys like to do?"

So you asked them for a pitch, as opposed to pitching them a project.

That's all I wanted to hear.

Obsidian's record so far is disappointing given their background, but anything from them regarding Fallout is welcomed compared to Beth. If Fallout: New Vegas is going to be any different its totally up to Obsidian, not Hines or Beth. As was the case with Kotor 2. Working on a new game of an established franchise, with an existing engine. They have full creative control of the game, and it isn't just a project handed down to them together with guidelines on how to do it. If the game is a mess it will be Obsidian's fault. If it succeeds all credit goes to them (although the Codex will blame Beth if it fails, and praise Obsidian if it succeeds). If the game fails, no big deal, the series was already dead. If it is even remotely decent, then that's an improvement from the current state. Win-win situation and absolutely nothing to lose. But I can't say I'm not surprised (positively) for the first time by Beth with their attitude and idea to go ahead with this.

My only problem with the project is that it will be based on the Fallout 3 engine.

The problem isn't just the FO3 engine - that's a bitch of a problem, but we know what's coming at least with regards to that. It means shit combat - the stealth, however, could be fixed (in theory). But I for one would still love to buy a game that was true to the FO lore, and had good story, dialogue and C+C, even if it had shit FO3 combat. Not to mention, that as quite a few of the less rabid Codexers (VD included) commented, if you could forget that FO3 was a FO game, as opposed to some random ARPG it was quite a decent, if forgettable ARPG, with the weakest parts being its dialogue and story. Obsidian sound like the right guys to fix that.

....BUT...ONE YEAR DEVELOPMENT!!??? What the fuck??? Have they learnt NOTHING from KoTOR 2? One year - that means that there will either be (a) no improvement to stealth, and certainly none to combat, a purely linear story with false choices and perhaps a few cosmetic C+C, and no changes tot he companion system, or (b) attempts to improve stealth, combat, give a good deep story, C+C, and companions, but the game will only be 60% finished.

Fucking hell, they're doing this while working on another project, as a small studio. Two years would still have been stupidly ambitious. I can't even believe Bethesda would let them have the IP for a project rushed through in that time. Hell - even a decent mod would be difficult to make in that time.

 

[Andhaira]

Dude, they spent a alot of time and money making the Oblivion engine and are now milking it for all its worth. 'New Vagas' is actually na expansion pack for fallout 3; however the consoles can't do expansion packs like the pc so they are selling it as if its a brnd new game.

EA is watching and learning btw. Expect similar things from Bioware after dragon age is launched.

 

[bozia2012]

"Let's make sure that we're protecting what is ours and not letting somebody else do anything with it."

 

[MetalCraze]

Dude, they spent a alot of time and money making the Oblivion engine and are now milking it for all its worth.

Correction - they didn't spend a single cent and second making Oblivion engine.
It is the very same buggy, unoptimized piece of shit Gamebrio engine they are using since Morrowind as well as many other developers in many b-class games.

 

[Elwro]

Actually, it runs a lot better than it did in Oblivion.

 

[Seboss]

Civ 4 is a b-class game?

 

[Bluebottle]

Dude, they spent a alot of time and money making the Oblivion engine and are now milking it for all its worth.

Correction - they didn't spend a single cent and second making Oblivion engine.
It is the very same buggy, unoptimized piece of shit Gamebrio engine they are using since Morrowind as well as many other developers in many b-class games.

When you're quoting Andhaira, and you're the one sounding retarded and uninformed, you know you've taken a wrong turn at some point.

The gap between buying an engine and actually having something ready for assets, world etc. is fucking huge, arguably the lions share of the work required (certainly for the coders). I do like the idea that Firaxis and Bethesda both bought Gamebryo, and whereas Firaxis simply set it to '4x' when starting it up, Bethesda set it to 'RPG', and away they went. Job done.

 

[Morbus]

Civ 4 is a b-class game?

Name one gamebryo engine besides elder scroll's, pirates!'s and civ's.

NAO!!!

Fraqing strawman.

:EDIT:
And I don't mean that there are no other gamebryo engines, I just mean you don't know about them.

And looking it up is cheating.

 

[Seboss]

I think the point of skyway is that they already did most of the engine coding with Morrowind.
With Oblivion they merely added shaders here and there and Havok support. Not saying this is trivial but it's still much less work that turning a generic 3D engine into a first person RPG framework.

Civ 4 is a b-class game?

Name one gamebryo engine besides elder scroll's, pirates!'s and civ's.

NAO!!!

Fraqing strawman.

What does it have to do with anything?

 

[Bluebottle]

I think the point of skyway is that they already did most of the engine coding with Morrowind.
With Oblivion they merely added shaders here and there and Havok support. Not saying this is trivial but it's still much less work that turning a generic 3D engine into a first person RPG framework.

Saying that it required zero time or money is a fucking stretch, though. As well as some fairly large tweaks to the tools (terrain generation, a large change in the way it handles world spaces etc.) there was also a switch to Shader3.0 (which will have required a monumental change to the renderer), changes in occlusion handling, a total shadow rewrite (twice in fact, as dynamic shadows were famously removed shortly prior to release) and a new method of scripting (which produced pretty shitty AI results, admittedly). That's just easily noticable surface stuff from Morrowind to Oblivion. Include all the behind the scenes changes (especially from Oblivion to Fallout3, which obviously was far more efficiently coded) and you've got a real mountain of work and investment.

You'd probably be massively underestimating the work required, if you were to draw parallels between Quake and Half-life, as between Morrowind and Oblivion.

There are plenty of good solid game design reasons why someone could criticise Bethesda; it is a testament to idiocy that someone would have to turn to something so obviously wrong, just to score points.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Official XBAWX Magazeen have their article on how Vegas can improve on Fallout 3:

1. Grenade Throwing

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

That's the spirit Matt.

 

[Seboss]

I think the point of skyway is that they already did most of the engine coding with Morrowind.
With Oblivion they merely added shaders here and there and Havok support. Not saying this is trivial but it's still much less work that turning a generic 3D engine into a first person RPG framework.

Saying that it required zero time or money is a fucking stretch, though.
You'd probably be massively underestimating the work required, if you were to draw parallels between Quake and Half-life, as between Morrowind and Oblivion.

Agreed, but Bethesda is not ID Software or Valve, they don't build 3D engines from scratch.
I work in the software industry but I don't know jack shit about 3D engines to be honest. But I'm pretty sure Gamebryo have updates of its own and Bethesda did not have to do all the dirty work for Shader3.0 rendering.

But yeah, you got a point anyways.

 

[Luzur]

2. Less Isolation

less? and here i wanted a bigger in-game world.

1. Grenade Throwing

wut?

 

[Dionysus]

....BUT...ONE YEAR DEVELOPMENT!!??? What the fuck??? Have they learnt NOTHING from KoTOR 2? One year - that means that there will either be (a) no improvement to stealth, and certainly none to combat, a purely linear story with false choices and perhaps a few cosmetic C+C, and no changes tot he companion system, or (b) attempts to improve stealth, combat, give a good deep story, C+C, and companions, but the game will only be 60% finished.

It really depends on why you think the combat is "shit." If you think that the AI is broken, then fixing that would be a tall order, and Obsidian isn't a developer that is up to the task. But there are many trivial changes that can profoundly affect the combat. For example, some people think that VATS makes the game too easy. You can pretty much eliminate that complaint by changing a single variable. Of course, other people would then complain that VATS is too hard to use, so it's best to incorporate this sort of adjustment into the difficulty slider. I didn't think that the stealth was bad, but most of the complaints I've heard seem to imply that it was too hard, which could also be adjusted in a simple way. Judging from the mods that have come out, they could get a lot of mileage out of making simple tweaks. I'd also like to see the return of a difficulty slider that affects skills. That could address a lot of the complaints about the leveling system while maintaining the accessibility of the game.

Fucking hell, they're doing this while working on another project, as a small studio. Two years would still have been stupidly ambitious. I can't even believe Bethesda would let them have the IP for a project rushed through in that time. Hell - even a decent mod would be difficult to make in that time.

They just lost a project that they were working on, and this is just a glorified mod. If they set reasonable goals, they should be fine.

 

[MetalCraze]

Saying that it required zero time or money is a fucking stretch, though. As well as some fairly large tweaks to the tools (terrain generation, a large change in the way it handles world spaces etc.) there was also a switch to Shader3.0 (which will have required a monumental change to the renderer), changes in occlusion handling, a total shadow rewrite (twice in fact, as dynamic shadows were famously removed shortly prior to release) and a new method of scripting (which produced pretty shitty AI results, admittedly). That's just easily noticable surface stuff from Morrowind to Oblivion. Include all the behind the scenes changes (especially from Oblivion to Fallout3, which obviously was far more efficiently coded) and you've got a real mountain of work and investment.

Most of which was done by Gamebryo developers and not by Bethesda. Your point is?

 

[Bluebottle]

...

Most of which was done by Gamebryo developers and not by Bethesda. Your point is?

You think Gamebryo just sent them a disc, with NetImmerse upgrade written on, Bethesda popped it into their CD drive, and away they went?
Yeah, 'cause game making is that easy.

Anyway, my point was obvious. You were wrong when you said:
"they didn't spend a single cent and second making Oblivion engine."

Even taking into account you're usual brand of hyperbole, that's so far off the mark it makes you, quoting adhaira, look like the stupid one.

Think of that.

 

[MetalCraze]

So no constructive arguments then? Thought so.

You think Gamebryo just sent them a disc, with NetImmerse upgrade written on, Bethesda popped it into their CD drive, and away they went?

Obviously with NetImmerse upgrade - the engine which is not in production since 2001.

With Oblivion however they've just licensed a newer version of the engine with all graphical, physics, terrain-rendering, tools, etc upgrades you mentioned already there. Hard to imagine, right?

Oh and tweaking engine =/= making it.

 

[Bluebottle]

From my perspective, as a relative layman:

A software engine like NetImmerse (Morrowind) or Gamebryo (Oblivion) will contain a number of libraries for various different components of the renderer (lighting, terrain rendering, shadows, occlusion etc.). In the move from an out of the box licenced engine to what could be considered the core of the relased games engine (that is discounting the inplementation of the physics, the other licences software (speed tree, whatever) and the creation of the game tools) there will still be almost none of these libraries that will remain utterly unchaged. Bethesda will have tweaked almost all of them. When they upgraded from NetImmerse to Gamebryo it will have been necessary to rewrite pretty much all the code they've customised from NetImmerse, or, at very least, tweak it heavily to be compatible with the engine's changes. Tweaking itself would not necessarily be less time consuming owing to the increased likelyhood of bugs and incompatibilities slipping though.

On top of that, the terrain generation (the famous soil errosion), the TES construction kit, getting speedtree and havok to talk to Gamebryo were not already there and, though Gamebryo would no doubt be helpful towards a customer who's licenced a product for so much, they would certainly not have done any of the donkey work.

Presumably, someone with more experience could provide more detail, or correct my assumptions, but I am certain that licencing an engine does, in no way, obsolve you of work (though obviously it makes it a little easier).