What's in Jeff Vogel's Pocket?

[Jason]

Tags: Geneforge 4; Spiderweb Software

Ever wonder just how much hooker and blow money Jeff Vogel makes off his indie RPGs? Well, he lifted the veil on this shady underworld of greed and power over at his blog, <a href="http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/03/so-heres-how-many-games-i-sell.html" target="blank">The Bottom Feeder</a>. According to Vogel, the numbers on <b><a href="http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/geneforge4/index.html" target="blank">Geneforge 4</a></b> are:
<br>
<blockquote>Total Copies Sold of Geneforge 4 as of March 13, 2009: 3979.
<br>
Total Gross Sales Geneforge 4 as of March 13, 2009: $111412.
<br>
<br>
Total Geneforge 4 Hint Books Sold as of March 13, 2009: 807.
<br>
Total Gross Sales Geneforge 4 Hint Books as of March 13, 2009: $5649.</blockquote>
<br>
So how much did this cost him?
<br>
<blockquote>I will simply say that, between the salaries for the creators, the costs for freelancers to makes graphics, general business expenses for the year (insurance, internet, a new computer or two), and the printing costs for hint books, Geneforge 4 cost about $120K to make. If I had to do all of the code and graphics from scratch, this figure would have been around fifty percent higher.</blockquote>
<br>
Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.crispygamer.com/">Crispy Gamer</A>

 

[DarkUnderlord]

So the short answer is he's always going to make games with the same engine?

 

[Zomg]

He annoys the shit out of me more-or-less every time I read anything he's written, but the dude is a warrior :bro knuckles:

 

[DemonKing]

So bascially even using the same old engine as always he's still losing money...

 

[drunkpriest]

And looking at the torrent sites it's got about 50 seeders and leechers in one torrent. Also multiple torrents of the series. Piracy is killing indie pc gaming! Geneforge 6 exclusively for SexBox 360.

 

[Davaris]

Jeff is the only Indie RPG maker I know of that is making a living - so the numbers for other indie RPG devs would get worse from there. Perhaps starting at half that if my marketing books aren't telling lies.

So the short answer is he's always going to make games with the same engine?

EDIT:
Costs would go much higher if he went 3D and instead of the being the guy who makes ugly 2D games, he'd be the guy that makes ugly 3D games.

And looking at the torrent sites it's got about 50 seeders and leechers in one torrent. Also multiple torrents of the series. Piracy is killing indie pc gaming! Geneforge 6 exclusively for SexBox 360.

Wrong! Piracy helps game makers make better games! Just ask the pirates on this board, they'll explain it to you in great detail.

If he is going out of business, perhaps he needs to try something different? He could collect email addresses and ransom his next game. That way even players from poorer countries can afford to chip in $1 or $2, instead of sharing his game.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Unless the hint-books are print-on-demand, he could probably save a lot of money by forgoing that part of the business as this guy probably satisfies most customers needs for hints. He could save a lot of his own labor to by abandoning the hint-books, as they seem to be quite anachronistic in today's day and age.

Part of me also wonders if he would gain more sales by lowering the price of his games. But I guess he'll talk about that in part 2. Should be interesting. I've always wondered why the price point was as high as it was. I suppose he has some information that we don't that leads him to set it that way.

I work for a salary, and my time spent writing Geneforge 4 is time not spent earning money elsewhere. Salaries only don't count toward the budget if your time has no value. And time is the most valuable thing you have.

That's interesting, he factors in the opportunity cost of not working elsewhere. Though I'm assuming he's low-balling it a bit if it fits into his 120k figure. A talented programmer with experience on numerous games that are on two different OS platforms is pretty impressive.

And once again he delivers an awesome quote.

 

[Davaris]

Part of me also wonders if he would gain more sales by lowering the price of his games.

He'd still have to provide support and prices have been dropping anyway if you include inflation and the fact that no one has raised their prices much above $20 in the past. Unfortunately the big trend in casual gaming is to drop their prices to $5 and less, which can only mean that the casual scene is finished for anything but hobbyists. If the same thing happens to the Indie RPG scene, there would be no reward for effort.

EDIT:
I have seen devs say that they dropped their prices, sold more copies, but made 50% less than before.

he's low-balling it a bit if it fits into his 120k figure

That is an understatement. That 120 grand must pay for other costs besides his salary. He doesn't include the costs of art in that (they are very high) and at one point he was employing a second person. So if he paid for art on the last game and had similar sales, he would have earned less on the last game.

On the other hand he has lower costs in other ways. He doesn't have to commute or pay rent/mortgage in an expensive city.

between the salaries for the creators, the costs for freelancers to makes graphics, general business expenses for the year (insurance, internet, a new computer or two),

At any rate it surprises me that Vogel has released his sales figures, as most people wouldn't do that. Does anyone know if he has done this in the past?

 

[Higher Game]

Hopefully people keep buying his games over many years so he can make a decent long tail profit.

 

[Volourn]

Not even 4k sales? And, he's supposed to be SUCCESSFUL indy developer? Looking nearly 10k on his games? EPIC FAIL.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Yeah, VD's either going to come out and make the same sort of shitty sales or he's going to make Jeff Vogel look really, really dumb. I actually suspect the latter because I do believe Jeff's old stodgy looking engine does hold him back a lot more than he suspects. Plus that and it's the same game over and over again. He hasn't made a new property or something slightly different for a long-time, so he's essentially just been selling to the same audience that bought his last game, without ever bringing a new audience in. It works but there's only so long you can milk a niche that small.

 

[It Is All A Lies]

Think long term. he clearly says he makes "good money" (this means more than most) and that Geneforge 4 was only an average performer. At this point he has a decent backcatalogue of games to fall back on and once Geneforge 4 gets in the black he will have lost nothing on his investment and added another.

I think Age of Decadence will sell well.I'm going to pimp it everywhere.

 

[Andhaira]

Well he made a loss on G4 alone. However Avernum is also released in the same year as Geneforge. And avernum sells better.

I think eschalon was a wake up call for mr. Vogel, especially now that he knows Baslisk Games is here to stay. And how many improvements they are manig to book II.

Vogel needs to put everything he's learnt and make a new engine and a new game. And go for CLASSES for crying out loud; D&D and WoW sell TONS...and they use CLASSES!!

 

[Twinfalls]

Jeff Vogel look really, really dumb

Really? Vogel is making, as you say, 'basically the same game over and over again'. And he's doing well out of it, well enough to keep going. There's a risk in branching out into unknown territory, doing something 'new' isn't simply that easy. Sounds like he's in the perfect little niche for his own ambitions.

The article's a bit useless as it's the overall picture that's instructive, yet he presents very little of this. Geneforge 4 doesn't exist in a production and business vacuum.

Geneforge 6 exclusively for SexBox 360.

This isn't so dumb really. If an indie RPG like a Vogel could manage to be listed on XBLA, it'd be a first, and I have no doubt would sell like the clappers. Problem would be getting on there in the first place, and I suspect the issue is MS not wanting anything low-budget which possesses the depth to displace full-pricers away from customers' time-allocation. :conspiracee:

He could save a lot of his own labor to by abandoning the hint-books, as they seem to be quite anachronistic in today's day and age.

Not always....

Bethesda Reaps Wild Margins on Its Self-Published Morrowind Book

"in terms of return on investment, this is easily the highest profit product this company has ever produced," says Hines.

 

[Maia]

He should make an iphone/ iPod Touch port. Other Mac devs are saying that porting a Mac-native game is a fairly quick process and price of entry into Appstore is quite low. A good RPG with retro graphics could appeal to a few thousands among the 30 Mio of the device owners.

 

[Oarfish]

UI would need work, but that would seem like a good option. There's one man game dev shops pulling 21K a day from casuals via the app store.

 

[asper]

Jeff is the only Indie RPG maker I know of that is making a living - so the numbers for other indie RPG devs would get worse from there.

Eschalon made enough of a profit to prompt the team to work on the second part.

The developer of Dwarf Fortress, Tarn Adams, works on his game full-time, every day. Even though it is in alpha and available for free download, he gets enough money from donations to sustain himself - a fact which I find very striking...! How I know this? Well, he has been publicly posting what he gets through donations for ages.

For 2009:

The month itself was okay for a non-release month, but I also paid my taxes for 2008 in February. This was my first year without any steady income from a regular job, so I got to see the full picture this time around without W2s to complicate it. Between the government and Paypal fees, the rate is about 25%, which left my bank account a few thousand down over the year. I still have plenty saved up from my old job, so I'm not going anywhere. Please keep in mind that the numbers below do not incorporate any taxes or fees, though.

February Donations: $1428.62
January Donations: $2099.48
December Donations: $5279.49
November Donations: $1305.10
October Donations: $1868.30

2008:

November Donations: $1305.10
October Donations: $1868.30
September Donations: $1695.48
August Donations: $3101.50
July Donations: $5543.99
June Donations: $1531.09
May Donations: $1943.71
April Donations: $3757.64
March Donations: $1749.50
February Donations: $2844.93
January Donations: $1697.73

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?board=8.0

Amazing, huh? he gets over 1k just from donations each month, while his game is free for download and in alpha. It makes me wonder how many people play Dwarf Fortress... This should fill every indie developer with hope, methinks.

Anyway, I think Vogel really underestimates how much more he could earn by having a more slick presentation of his games. If Avernum would look like Eschalon, he would easily triple or quadruple the number of its sales.

PS. basically, the Eschalon fanbase wants all that which Vogel has been putting in his games (plot, dialogue, factions, c&c) to be added to Eschalon, while some Vogel fans dream of his games having the slick feel of Eschalon... The Eschalon engine should be sold to Vogel, to let him create a true classic :shock:

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

I wonder how much he made on Geneforge 1, I bet it was quite a bit more except maybe higher expenses.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

I suspect his refusal to upgrade to slicker graphics and a more modern UI have lost him tons of sales. It may be penny-wise, but it's pound-foolish. I'm sure for $10-20k he could overhaul the look to be much prettier and a lot more people would play.

 

[sheek]

I would guess he has made a small loss on each of the early games but that now he has built up a catologue new fans will buy the older ones.

 

[Panthera]

I suspect his refusal to upgrade to slicker graphics and a more modern UI have lost him tons of sales. It may be penny-wise, but it's pound-foolish. I'm sure for $10-20k he could overhaul the look to be much prettier and a lot more people would play.

I love it when people bitch to compensate for their own failings. :D

 

[WanderingThrough2]

[quote="Panthera"}I love it when people bitch to compensate for their own failings. :D[/quote]
Which of my many failings am I compensating for this time? Not having made an indie RPG, not enjoying Vogel's graphics, caring about graphics, carrying about commerce. . . .?

 

[doctor_kaz]

He might, indeed, sell more if the games didn't look like they were produced in about 1990. You don't have to apologize for being turned off by graphics that look almost two decades out of date. You don't have to produce Dawn of War II level graphics to make a good game, but a game should at least be as easy on the eyes as a 10+ year old game like Baldurs Gate.

Isn't Ossian studios just a few folks? I think that a business model where indie studios make commercial mods for modern games is a better business model.

 

[Oarfish]

a game should at least be as easy on the eyes as a 10+ year old game like Baldurs Gate

There was a hell of a lot of good art in that game. I doubt that would be cheap to reproduce today.

 

[SuicideBunny]

or he's going to make Jeff Vogel look really, really dumb.

the man's been at it for fifteen years, making enough money to support himself and two other people despite a rather obvious lack of talent. he succeeded where incomprehensibly large numbers of other more talented people miserably failed or burned up. i don't think even stellar aod sales would make him look dumb

the worst you can say is that he seems to like to play it safe, and reaps both the benefits and detriments of that.

It makes me wonder how many people play Dwarf Fortress...

there are people who don't?

Anyway, I think Vogel really underestimates how much more he could earn by having a more slick presentation of his games. If Avernum would look like Eschalon, he would easily triple or quadruple the number of its sales.

judging by geneforge 5, he's at the very least in the process of realizing that.