Editorial Bloodlines - We may never pass this way again

[Jason]

Tags: Troika Games; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines

There's another melancholy love letter to <b>Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines</b> up on <a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/02/11/forever-young-the-tragedy-of-bloodlines/" target="blank">Rock Paper Shotgun</a>, this time in an extended version of Jim Rossignol's PC Gamer UK article.
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<blockquote>Bloodlines is something like an action soap-opera. I truly wish I could say that of more games. So few games have attempted to access this most natural of game approaches: analogy of the real world, with conversation and violence intermingled, rather than simply delivering uninterrupted carnage, or endless management. These ‘immersive sim’ games are tough to make, granted, but when you play something like Bloodlines they also feel like <i>they’re the games we deserve</i>. Game developers often talk about the strange sense of entitlement that gamers seem to bring to their hobby, but when you taste games like this, it becomes entirely understandable. To be to be stealthy or stabby, seductive or violent, well, it’s almost like the game is spoiling us with options. After ten hours in Bloodlines you’re struck by the nagging concern: why aren’t other studios reaching for the stars like this? Even Bioshock and Stalker seem vapid in their shooter-obsessions.</blockquote>
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/">RPS</A>

 

[Elwro]

FUCK.

Here's my newspost, so it doesn't get completely wasted:

Bloodlines lamentations at Rock, Paper, Shotgun

Yay! Another opportunity to <s>whine about</s> mourn over the demise of ambitious titles and gather together in sadness concerning the fact that games simply aren't what they used to be. <a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/02/11/forever-young-the-tragedy-of-bloodlines/">Here</a>'s an essay by Jim Rossignol about Bloodlines, a "clever, multi-faceted RPG", managing at the same time to be...<blockquote>...something like an action soap-opera. I truly wish I could say that of more games. So few games have attempted to access this most natural of game approaches: analogy of the real world, with conversation and violence intermingled, rather than simply delivering uninterrupted carnage, or endless management. These ‘immersive sim’ games are tough to make, granted, but when you play something like Bloodlines they also feel like <i>they’re the games we deserve</i>.</blockquote>While I love to see an article praising Bloodlines every once in a while, there are quite a few things seriously wrong about this bit. We deserve "soap operas"? Aren't soap operas the epitome of unoriginality? "Immersive sims"? Bloodlines is a story-oriented game, completely different in character from titles striving to simulate a world, like e.g. TES series. I agree that Bloodlines is one of the games <i>we deserve</i>. But that's mainly because of fantastic writing and memorable NPCs.<blockquote>After ten hours in Bloodlines you’re struck by the nagging concern: why aren’t other studios reaching for the stars like this? Even Bioshock and Stalker seem vapid in their shooter-obsessions.

Of course, it’s a matter of complexity. To make a game like Bloodlines is a task of terrifying scale. It’s one thing to make a game about running around putting bullets into people, and quite another to make it the tale of a weak young vampire who can talk to almost anyone in a series of thriving city hubs, travelling back and forth between them amid of a web of quests that range from simple puzzle solving, through the seduction of innocent human victims, to the brawling battles with rival monsters.</blockquote>I think complexity is irrelevant here, and even if otherwise, I'm unconvinced that Bloodlines was more complex to program than e.g. Oblivion. No, I think the reasons are to be found elsewhere, and are quite mundane. The group of people who can appreciate good writing is smaller than the group of those who put much value in graphics, so for big studios there's no point in hiring good writers. Also, making a game revolving around mature themes means saying goodbye to sales among kids, and no big-budget publisher will risk this.

Read the editorial <a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/02/11/forever-young-the-tragedy-of-bloodlines/">here</a>.

Spotted at: <A HREF="www.gamebanshee.com">GameBanshee</A>

 

[Forest Dweller]

Both suck.

 

[Occasionally Fatal]

thinking of bloodlines always makes me :tearofaneagle:

or it would, if i was an eagle. curse these puny man tears!

 

[Seboss]

Also, making a game revolving around mature themes means saying goodbye to sales among kids, and no big-budget publisher will risk this.

Is that really a factor? Fallout 3 and GTA4 are both rated M and sold millions of copies, and I doubt any shop clerk on the planet ever refused to sell a copy to a kid.

As for the programming complexity, if you only look at the number of C++ instructions used, maybe Oblivion is ten times more 'complex' than Bloodlines.
But the intricacies in the quest lines, dialogs and characters of Bloodlines make it far more complex than the linear, 'standalone' Fedex/murder quest lines of Oblivion. I guess.
I won't even mention the writing skills needed in comparison to Oblivion.

 

[ArcturusXIV]

Also, making a game revolving around mature themes means saying goodbye to sales among kids, and no big-budget publisher will risk this.

Is that really a factor? Fallout 3 and GTA4 are both rated M and sold millions of copies, and I doubt any shop clerk on the planet ever refused to sell a copy to a kid.

As for the programming complexity, if you only look at the number of C++ instructions used, maybe Oblivion is ten times more 'complex' than Bloodlines.
But the intricacies in the quest lines, dialogs and characters of Bloodlines make it far more complex than the linear, 'standalone' Fedex/murder quest lines of Oblivion. I guess.

One of the many things I admire about Bethesda is their work ethic. Their game don't always succeed, but at least they are always stuffed with content, and have rich, dense worlds to explore, with tons of subtle nuances (collecting plants for alchemy, et cetera).

Bloodlines was also amazing, and full of interesting things. I haven't completed the game yet, so I can't really justify giving a quick capsule review, but I don't see it as being any less complex. Troika obviously puts a lot of thought into their games, and I think the foreplanning is just as important as the execution--mapping out a storyline and dialogue before programming it is just as difficult as the actual work required to execute it. Especially when your interactions are as complex as Bloodlines, and with as many branching options to explore.

 

[Elwro]

"Writing skills" was my point, you don't need any to create Oblivion-style dialogue. But Bloodlines isn't really that complex in terms of quests and options. Also, there are maybe 30 NPCs with real conversations in the whole game.

 

[Lurkar]

I think it's important to note that players would eat up amazing writing if they were told to. In many ways the game industry has caged ITSELF in with it's emphasis on bigger and better graphics and giant gory explosions. Quite frankly, it's not that most people love awesome graphics or big gory explosions with shallow plots, it's that people love what they think they're expected to love. If the emphasis of the industry turned towards better writing, then the Oblivion crowd would instantly declare it's love for the same type of game it used to decry and hate. While it's true that people choose what kind of game they like, it's not at all one way; to a degree, I'd say that producers decide what kind of game people want. The big problem is, it's a fine line to tread between hyping your game and turning people off from it. As more people get wearier and more cautious towards hype, game producers are going to lose more control, and the formulas are going to start failing more rapidly. Funny enough, the loss of control is usually what gets them to clench their fist tighter. It'll be interesting to see how the game industry fairs with next gen consoles - current gen has had quite a few more downs then it has ups, we're hitting a recession, and I don't think a lot of people in charge are learning any lessons.

 

[maxim]

Still a lot of it has to do with what the consumers majority wants. I have given bloodlines to some of my co-servicemen for them to try it (they are the types who like such products like GTA IV, C&C Generals, Assasins Creed etc) but almost universally they are all turned off from the amount of dialogue and quests present in the game. In short they don't want it, even when the dialogue is fully voiced and the quest solutions are outright told to you in the journals "quests" section. They don't give a shit about good writing, interesting NPC-s etc, all they want is to have fun and blow up things. I fear they are the representives of the majority of gamers.

 

[maxim]

Still a lot of it has to do with what the consumers majority wants. I have given bloodlines to some of my co-servicemen for them to try it (they are the types who like such products like GTA IV, C&C Generals, Assasins Creed etc) but almost universally they are all turned off from the amount of dialogue and quests present in the game. In short they don't want it, even when the dialogue is fully voiced and the quest solutions are outright told to you in the journals "quests" section. They don't give a shit about good writing, interesting NPC-s etc, all they want is to have fun and blow up things. I fear they are the representives of the majority of gamers.

 

[maxim]

Still a lot of it has to do with what the consumers majority wants. I have given bloodlines to some of my co-servicemen for them to try it (they are the types who like such products like GTA IV, C&C Generals, Assasins Creed etc) but almost universally they are all turned off from the amount of dialogue and quests present in the game. In short they don't want it, even when the dialogue is fully voiced and the quest solutions are outright told to you in the journals "quests" section. They don't give a shit about good writing, interesting NPC-s etc, all they want is to have fun and blow up things. I fear they are representatives of the majority of the consumer base.

 

[hicksman]

I'm in Chinatown right now and I'm finding there aren't really multiple paths through a lot of the quests. You either do it "right" or you fail it. I did 3 quests the way I wanted to do them and they're in my FAILED QUESTS log. That wasn't too impressive.

Dont get me wrong, its a cool game, but there are many ways that Bloodlines should not be the one that aspiring game developers should be reaching for.

 

[Dandelion]

I'm in Chinatown right now and I'm finding there aren't really multiple paths through a lot of the quests. You either do it "right" or you fail it. I did 3 quests the way I wanted to do them and they're in my FAILED QUESTS log. That wasn't too impressive.

Dont get me wrong, its a cool game, but there are many ways that Bloodlines should not be the one that aspiring game developers should be reaching for.

It's not only a "cool game", for Christ's sake..it's one of the berst cRPGs of the history of the genre, and by far the best of "modern cRPGs", and someone must be blind and deaf to deny it.
I'm not going to say why, because if you're at Chinatown and didn't realise it yet there's no hope..but maybe it's worth mentioning the fact that Trokia didn't have the time to finish its work because of hte financial problems (or publisher's idiocy, you choose), and as a result the last quarter (or third) of the game isn't as deep and unique as the previous parts.

 

[Tavicroix]

publisher's idiocy

This.
It would be fucking amazing to see bankrupt of Activision.
They really really deserve it.
Same as Bioware and Beth ""Fantasy, for us, is a knight on horseback running around and killing things" Soft

Edit: I forgot Sierra.

 

[Tardvapor]

Dont get me wrong, its a cool game, but there are many ways that Bloodlines should not be the one that aspiring game developers should be reaching for.

What else do they have to shoot for?

Deus Ex and Bloodlines. Everything else is bit-garbage.

 

[Longshanks]

"Writing skills" was my point, you don't need any to create Oblivion-style dialogue. But Bloodlines isn't really that complex in terms of quests and options. Also, there are maybe 30 NPCs with real conversations in the whole game.

Well, early on there are a decent amount of options. Certainly far more than Oblivion (though, that probably goes for the later game as well). So, it is more complex than Oblivion in this aspect, but far from the level of the Fallouts or Arcanum. For me, the NPC interactions (writing, VA, animations) and the quest quality (options and content) were what made Bloodlines an enjoyable experience. It is more complex than Oblivion in dialogue tree and quests, though it's the quality of these that are more important; see Fallout 3 which probably has equal complexity but inferior quality in both.

It is the best action RPG I've played, and I think a good model for a mainstream FPS/RPG. Even though it did have a fair amount of dialogue, I can see little reason why a Bloodlines-like game could not reach a mainstream audience with the right backing. Fallout 3, Mass Effect, the KOTORs all had similar or greater amounts of dialogue. It only lacks in free large-world exploration, loot collection and item upgrade treadmill. The first would probably kill the game (as it did for Fallout 3), but adding more items and increasing the size of hubs would not.

 

[HanoverF]

publisher's idiocy

Forcing the launch on the same day as Half-Life 2. That's gotta be the dumbest move ever.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I'm in Chinatown right now and I'm finding there aren't really multiple paths through a lot of the quests. You either do it "right" or you fail it.

There are some of those, especially in the late game, but you forgot the fact that 95% of other rpgs have exclusively this kind of quests and nothing else. Unless you count free roaming as a form of ''choice''.

I did 3 quests the way I wanted to do them and they're in my FAILED QUESTS log. That wasn't too impressive.

Care to share an example? As far as i remember, even in my first playthrough i didn't have mutch of those. You got to do some really silly shit for that to happen, which would explain a lot.
And since when failing at something is ''unimpressive''? The game should be a bit challanging sometimes. Winning by default does not constitute a ''game''.

 

[mondblut]

Deus Ex and Bloodlines. Everything else is bit-garbage.

Go play counterstrike.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I never really understood this one ambiguity in the gaming industry.

Hardcore shooter like ArmA/Rainbow Six - too niche, shelve and ignore it.

Hardcore RPG like Prelude To Darkness - too niche, shelve and ignore it.

Lite FPS mixed with lite RPG elements - a deep and stimulating experience, why aren't more developers making games like these?!

Seriously. :D

I don't get this pro-hybrid game bias. I mean, I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but I felt Bloodlines combat was really far too inclined on twitching rather than building up your character properly.

Building your character properly in Bloodlines merely involved putting points into a few basic combat skills and buying equipment that was automatically made available to you by Mercurio and Fat Larry only as the game progressed.

Gamespy said in their Hall Of Fame thingey, "Back in 1994, everybody was playing Doom II, ignoring a thinking game like System Shock." Wow, "thinking game" like System Shock. A poor man's dumbed down Ultima Underworld. I'd rather play an honest shooter like Doom II, than a dumbed down lite RPG pseudo FPS like System Shock 1.

 

[Humanophage]

I wouldn't say Bloodlines was a lite FPS\TPS with lite RPG elements. Actually, it would be more correct to describe it as a pure RPG with an uninspired combat system.

The skill system is actually reasonably extensive as far as non-combat skills are concerned, and allows for fairly strict specialisation. The clan system influences the way the world reacts to the character in quite an extensive manner. The dialogues have enough branches in them to allow the player to define the character of the PC through them. A vast range of factors such as clan, statistics, skills, or the player's previous actions influences the dialogues strongly. There are multiple, mutually exclusive paths in the game. All in all, Bloodlines gives the player a sufficiently wide array of tools to define his character, which makes it a proper RPG.

As far as mixed lite TPS - lite RPGs are concerned, I suppose they're liked because the gameplay is perceived as more diverse than in a shooter and more "fun" than in a hardcore RPG. Specific games like System Shock are particularly liked for reasons not directly related to the gameplay itself, but rather to things like atmosphere and plot, which the gameplay manages to underline.

 

[hicksman]

Well the System Shocks certainly required MORE thought than Doom 2...

As for failing Bloodlines quests, I gave the pendant to Jeanette, which made me fail that quest AND the one that I was supposed to use the pendant for if i was doing it correctly.

I can see that I should have gotten the pendant back to the rightful owner for THAT quest, but i figured I was gonig down a different path with Jeanette. Was that wrong? I thought the point of C&C was that different things happened depending on what choice you make. Right way vs wrong way is pretty similar to the "choice" of doing a quest and not doing it that lots of pseudo rpgs have.

The 3rd quest I realized I failed immediately and went back and corrected: I let the serial killer in the junkyard go free. Why the fuck do i care that he goes free? Maybe he'd pop up later and help me - that's not out of the realm of possibility in these games.

 

[Forest Dweller]

I'll have to say that one thing really irritated me in Bloodlines, perhaps more so becuase it could have easily been fixed. It's the fact that I couldn't lie to Lacroix. Seriously, throughout the game I was given ample reason not to trust him, and yet I could only report the truth when I talked to him. This became blatantly apparent at the end of the game where he tells me to meet that asain bitch. (I forget her name.) She specifically tells me not to trust him, that he's been using me, and that he shouldn't know that she has told me this. Then when I report back to him, my only option is to tell him EXACTLY what she told me. What the fuck? That was like a slap in the face. And then he betrays me. So yeah, a bunch of bullshit, and in my view inexcusable in a game with c&c. Even if lying to him would have led to the exact same outcomes, it would have at least let me feel like I was roleplaying a character with at least a moderate amount of intelligence.

 

[Gragt]

Sometimes doing something does not open a new array of possibilities and you just fuck up a quest. That's a consequence.

 

[Jim Cojones]

I can see that I should have gotten the pendant back to the rightful owner for THAT quest, but i figured I was gonig down a different path with Jeanette. Was that wrong? I thought the point of C&C was that different things happened depending on what choice you make. Right way vs wrong way is pretty similar to the "choice" of doing a quest and not doing it that lots of pseudo rpgs have.

The 3rd quest I realized I failed immediately and went back and corrected: I let the serial killer in the junkyard go free. Why the fuck do i care that he goes free? Maybe he'd pop up later and help me - that's not out of the realm of possibility in these games.

It's horrible! Quest is marked as failed! I am doomed!

In all these examples you haven't done what you've been asked for. Thus quest is failed. But why should it bother you? In fact, it is sometimes better not to complete a quest, e.g. failing one of quests from Therese Voerman gives you a possibility to reunite the sisters (spoiler).