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Editorial When a Magic Missile Just Isn't Enough

Jason

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Tags: Iron Tower; Vault Dweller

<a href="http://www.irontowerstudio.com/" target="blank">Iron Tower</a> dictator VD cobbled together his <a href="http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=675.0" target="blank">thoughts on magic</a> in RPGs and how it could be made a more interesting, integral part of the gameworld.
<br>
<blockquote>A lesser example is an "Aikido mage" concept I developed for a PnP session a long time ago. As the name suggests, the "aikido mage" doesn’t cast any offensive spells, but redirects the force of the attack and/or uses it against the attacker. In game terms, it’s built around an "interrupt" feature.
<br>
<br>
Let's say an archer fires an arrow at such a mage. The mage interrupts the attack, stops the arrow in midair and sends it back at the archer. A melee attack is interrupted and directed at another enemy or any objects like walls or columns (directing at the columns would be a good way to bring down the ceiling and bury all attackers). The "aikido mage" can be killed, of course, but it would require an overwhelming (to his level) force, which actually befits the status of a mage. He/she can't turn every arrows away, can't control every strike aimed at him. The power and accuracy (when it comes to redirecting attacks) grow with skills/levels.</blockquote>
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rpgwatch.com/">RPG Watch</A>
 

Ion Flux

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It's a cool idea imo. I agree that magic systems really need to be made more integral and engaging compared to the klugey DnD system. I always liked the "true names" system that Ursula Le Guin wrote into her novels. If a wizard knows the true name of stone or steel, it can be made to serve his ends. Hard to implement well in a CRPG because one could imagine huge balance problems, but compelling nonetheless.
 

Lightknight

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As the name suggests, the "aikido mage" doesn’t cast any offensive spells, but redirects the force of the attack and/or uses it against the attacker. In game terms, it’s built around an "interrupt" feature.
Yeah, many people got to that idea at some point, me included. Its practically a monthly tradition over at GD.net to make such threads. I made three myself. Or was it four ?

What you do see are firebolts and fireballs, ice storms and chain lightning, magic missiles and meteor swarms.
And thats why my game wont have any damage spells at all. None. Area buffs only. And i do mean "buffs" in the widest possible definition.
 

Cassidy

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Lightknight said:
What you do see are firebolts and fireballs, ice storms and chain lightning, magic missiles and meteor swarms.
And thats why my game wont have any damage spells at all. None. Area buffs only. And i do mean "buffs" in the widest possible definition.

I hope you got a good idea to make mages more than "clerics with better buffs" then, or perhaps an unified spellcasting system for both archetypes. Anyway, an offensive magic doesn't have to be necessarily generic and plain like that. What about offensive spells that rely on available materials? For example, in the desert you could essentially blind most of your foes and try to drown them in sand, in caverns stalagmites and stalactites would be the primary sources of direct damage for a wizard, while in a dungeon you would be basically throwing loose or not so loose stones instead of magic missiles. And if you cast too many spells in a dungeon, displacing too many bricks or stones, entire sections of the building could face the danger of collapsing.

Then instead of Vancian stuff, there would be no limits, only increasing risks from using magic in excess.
 

Lightknight

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I hope you got a good idea to make mages more than "clerics with better buffs" then, or perhaps an unified spellcasting system for both archetypes.
Well, to be completely honest i'm trying to make a strategy game, not RPG. My point was simply that there wouldnt be any fireballs. And avatar's progression should be choked full of C&C.
 
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Cassidy said:
Lightknight said:
What you do see are firebolts and fireballs, ice storms and chain lightning, magic missiles and meteor swarms.
And thats why my game wont have any damage spells at all. None. Area buffs only. And i do mean "buffs" in the widest possible definition.

I hope you got a good idea to make mages more than "clerics with better buffs" then, or perhaps an unified spellcasting system for both archetypes. Anyway, an offensive magic doesn't have to be necessarily generic and plain like that. What about offensive spells that rely on available materials? For example, in the desert you could essentially blind most of your foes and try to drown them in sand, in caverns stalagmites and stalactites would be the primary sources of direct damage for a wizard, while in a dungeon you would be basically throwing loose or not so loose stones instead of magic missiles. And if you cast too many spells in a dungeon, displacing too many bricks or stones, entire sections of the building could face the danger of collapsing.

Then instead of Vancian stuff, there would be no limits, only increasing risks from using magic in excess.

thats a pretty good idea
 

Lightknight

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Sounds like one large reflect spell.
Except you actually DO something actively, instead of, you know, just casting the spell and standing there like a dumbass doing nothing while being shot at.
 

thesheeep

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Lightknight said:
Sounds like one large reflect spell.
Except you actually DO something actively, instead of, you know, just casting the spell and standing there like a dumbass doing nothing while being shot at.

The character does something, yes. But not necessarily the player.
If the player had to do all that reflecting and redirecting, it would most likely result in Diablo-like button smashing. Which would suck...

So for the player -if you don't come up with something very good to involve him- it IS one large skill-based reflect spell.
 

Lightknight

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I dunno, the way i envision it - this case is pretty much a perfect fit for the trendy directional gesture system. And conditional timed pausing for getting a time to react.
 

thesheeep

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Lightknight said:
I dunno, the way i envision it - this case is pretty much a perfect fit for the trendy directional gesture system. And conditional timed pausing for getting a time to react.

1. Imagine your game being paused all the time. Your brain will hurt after a while ;)
btw.... In Soviet Russia, the game pauses you.

2. If you had to do the gestures yourself, it would be action, not RPG, since the result would be based on your skill and not the skill of your character. Just look at shooting in Fallout 3. Its strange, to say the least.

2.1. Even if this pausing only happened when your character succeeded with a dice roll (or whatever determines success), it would still be weird. Probably even more as you would never know for sure when the game pauses and when it doesn't.


Basically, a good idea. But much, much harder to implement correctly than one would probably think.
 

Lightknight

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Imagine your game being paused all the time. Your brain will hurt after a while
Um...yeah...ever played any Infinity Engine games ? Did your brain hurt ? Played any recent tactical RTWP games like 7.62 ? Any brain damage from those ?

If you had to do the gestures yourself, it would be action, not RPG, since the result would be based on your skill and not the skill of your character.
How do you figure that ?
I could say that when in any game you click on an enemy - that was your skill, not the character's.

Even if this pausing only happened when your character succeeded with a dice roll (or whatever determines success), it would still be weird.
Please, dont mention dice rolls...urgh ! Basically the time should stop only when characters detects a danger in immediate vicinity, like sword over his head, bullet trying to cover those last 15 cm to your heart, and so on.

But much, much harder to implement correctly than one would probably think.
Indeed.
 

Claw

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thesheeep said:
1. Imagine your game being paused all the time. Your brain will hurt after a while ;)
Wasn't that a core feature of Max Paine? Somehow I never got around to playing that one.

2. If you had to do the gestures yourself, it would be action, not RPG, since the result would be based on your skill and not the skill of your character. Just look at shooting in Fallout 3. Its strange, to say the least.
It's called Action RPG, not "action, not RPG" fyi.
Also, I don't believe the Bethout comparison is sound. What is strange about Bethout is how NPCs can soak up damage like they're demigods "because it's and RPG" when they could have used accuracy for that. And they did to some degree, actually.

I play Bethout modded so character skill only accounty for 25% of the total damage, effectively making all weapons more powerful in the early game, and making low end opponents alot more dangerous.
To compensate, accuracy is far more strongly affected by skill. Works great for me. I really notice how much difference it makes when trying to wipe out Megaton oldschool.

In conclusion, I think that Action RPGs can be done well (big Gothic fan here), it's just that Beth chose to use a retarded implementation. Everything they do is somehow simple and daft. I'd like to change every aspect of Bethout's gameplay, even just a little.


PS: I love the idea of guesture systems, I just haven't yet seen one that does it well. The recognition logic just sucks. I either can't get a guesture to work - sometimes not even if I have all the time I want and try a hundred times (I am looking at you, Arx Fatalis!) or else I find that to make a guesture work reliably, I have to make a guesture that looks nothing like the guesture I am supposed to make.

Heck, even Arena fails with simple sword strikes. How hard is it to recognize "Left Mouse button pressed, mouse moved along X-axis by at least (threshold)? Instead of a quick and responsive system, I get one that feel like I am swinging a sword made of lead, but have only strength 3.
 
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Agreed about the gestures. Arx Fatalis was a real dog in this regard, and most of the time you would pre memorise the spells and press the key instead of trying to fight using gestures, so there was little point to them at all apart from some "cool" thing going on.
 

thesheeep

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Claw said:
Wasn't that a core feature of Max Paine? Somehow I never got around to playing that one.
Lightknight said:
Um...yeah...ever played any Infinity Engine games ? Did your brain hurt ? Played any recent tactical RTWP games like 7.62 ? Any brain damage from those ?

In Max Payne, it was slow motion, not a complete pause of the game. It didn't disrupt the game flow or anything.
In MP and in all the IE games, and NWN, etc., you triggered that feature. There is a HUGE difference (mainly a difference in how this is perceived by the player) between you pushing a button to pause the game and the computer pausing the game.
Imagine playing Max payne and not being able to trigger slowmotion yourself, but, from time to time, when you are being shot at, it just happens. Just strange.

On a side note, I'm quite convinced that all those hours of playing IE and NWN games didn't leave me completely unaffected ;)


If you had to do the gestures yourself, it would be action, not RPG, since the result would be based on your skill and not the skill of your character.
How do you figure that ?
I could say that when in any game you click on an enemy - that was your skill, not the character's.

And that would be true.
In that sense, there is no game on any platform that does not include this very small piece of player skill. But that is nitpicking.
IMHO there is a slight difference between clicking on a button and performing a gesture, waving your Wii remote in a certain way or whatever.


Claw said:
It's called Action RPG, not "action, not RPG" fyi.

The game, yes. But I was talking about the part that lets the player do gestures. Probably I wasn't really clear on that :)


Also, I don't believe the Bethout comparison is sound. What is strange about Bethout is how NPCs can soak up damage like they're demigods "because it's and RPG" when they could have used accuracy for that. And they did to some degree, actually.

And if they had used accuracy for that (or did it the way you do with the mod) then it would be mainly player skill based. Which is ok, if it is the way you want the game to be. But again, I was talking about RPG only.
 

Lightknight

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On a side note, I'm quite convinced that all those hours of playing IE and NWN games didn't leave me completely unaffected
:lol:

PS: I love the idea of guesture systems, I just haven't yet seen one that does it well. The recognition logic just sucks.
The problem in gesture systems up to date is not in the recognition. The problem is in the fact that gestures are pointless if all they are, are glorified "cast spell" button. Whats the difference ? Its like with Nintendo DS, developers just attach some stylus mechanics for the sake of them being in the game, instead of writing them in the core gameplay.

When i was talking about gestures i didnt mean drawing some mystical symbols in the air, i meant using mouse movements to actually control remote objects, giving them direction and speed and different kinetic qualities.

Imagine this : you are a weary traveller wrapped in robes, walking down the dusty road in the valley, when all of a sudden from beyond the hills you see clouds of arrows from left and right, and a number of footmen approaching from the front. As soon as the arrows fly close enough - time stops, your senses heighten, and you suddenly can see those archers, readying up another salvo. You then quickly draw a protective bubble of air around you with a quick circular motion - and arrows fall down all around, leaving you unharmed. Then you implode the air amidst one group of archers by swirling it into a single point, leaving them unconscious, and levitate a huge rock into the other group at high speed. Using all the willpower remaining you go into time-slowing trance yet again, soldiers closing in, you concentrate on their weapons, snatching those glimmering swords from their hands and drawing them closer, then sending the swords back with a vengeance. It is done, the way is clear once more.
 

Xor

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In my perfect game, the magic system would represent an entire gameplay path separate from combat, stealth, and speech. It would probably feature weak combat and stealth abilities (crappy single target damage spells and invisibility), but would allow independent and unique solutions to problems the game presented you.

For example, say you came to bandits guarding a bridge. They will take X amount of coins from you as a 'toll' for crossing the bridge. There are no nearby crossings and you need to get to the other side. A combat character could just kill them, a stealth character could try and sneak by them, a speech character could talk his way past them in multiple ways. A magic character would have several options, ranging from flying over the bridge to scaring the bandits with an illusion to creating a flood, with the option to destroy the bridge.

All of this would have consequence, naturally.
 

Balor

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By the way, creatives use of magic is why I like Wheel of Time, in spite of its ‘dresses, dresses, dresses, ornate patterns, sniffs and Men! Women! debates’.
It has everything VD described and more.

Btw, I really like the ‘controlling’ aspect of the magic (channeling) there. For instance, you can have enough power to create tens of fireballs at once… but guiding them would be akin to juggling ten balls at once! Therefore, less powerful, but more skilled channeler can beat more powerful one – because he can split the flows and manipulate them much more effectively.

There are even purely magic duels described there – where they would operate on ‘basic level’ of purely elemental flows, because they would lack time to weave a full-scale “spell”… and it’s almost completely invisible to the eye of one who is untrained to see the flows.
Imagine it as mages operating lots of ‘tentacles’ of elemental substance, using it to grapple, strike and intercept attacks… and given enough time- weave them into something much more effective and deadly.

Unfortunately, a system of such complexity would unlikely be implemented in a CRPG any time soon – unless so simplified that it loses all it’s uniqueness.
 

St. Toxic

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19610.jpg


I cast "Is this your card?" Lvl 2 @ 20% critical r.
 

Redeye

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baby arm said:
...A lesser example is an "Aikido mage" concept I developed for a PnP session a long time ago. As the name suggests, the "aikido mage" doesn’t cast any offensive spells, but redirects the force of the attack and/or uses it against the attacker. In game terms, it’s built around an "interrupt" feature.

Let's say an archer fires an arrow at such a mage. The mage interrupts the attack, stops the arrow in midair and sends it back at the archer. A melee attack is interrupted and directed at another enemy or any objects like walls or columns (directing at the columns would be a good way to bring down the ceiling and bury all attackers). The "aikido mage" can be killed, of course, but it would require an overwhelming (to his level) force, which actually befits the status of a mage. He/she can't turn every arrows away, can't control every strike aimed at him. The power and accuracy (when it comes to redirecting attacks) grow with skills/levels.

Kill it with splash damage!
 

elander_

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I like the idea of a mage that is at the same time intimidating and unexpected but also very fragile and human. Magic in this case would add an extra layer of puzzle solving gameplay and information gathering. It would be interesting to have magic like divination that give extra dialog lines or allow the player to sense someones motivations. Also you could use divination to give the mage a small edge in battle. If the mage is capable of predicting the enemy moves he can have a greatly increased AC, criticals and parrying moves, but nothing that overcomes the talent of a skilled fighter. Other interesting spells, without being too powerful, are spells that control or create illusions for weak minded creatures and small telekinesis Jedi powers.

It would be very interesting to play a mage who doesn't have any offensive magic like fireball, rain of fire. Or DnD overpowered spells like immunity to physical damage, archin shield, haste, slow, paralization, etc

Seeing as the focus of AoD is dialog i would go with Divination magic that would give extra dialog lines and would let the wizard recall past events that happened in certain places. This is easy to implement, with extra dialog lines and info messages.
 

Volourn

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Already possible in D&D, Elander.

Anyways, VD's idea is okay but it's not original, cool, exciting, or even fun . It sounds kind of bland and boring over a long game.
 

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