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Editorial Reason to be Pessimistic?

Section8

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Tags: Bethesda Softworks; Fallout 3

With recent Fallout 3 revelations, and the predictable negative reaction from the Fallout fanbase, I thought I'd editorialise on the subject. While I'm clearly over-analysing every tidbit of info that comes my way, it saddens me a little to see many people questioning the pessimistic tone of debate brought forth by the Fallout faithful. So just for gags, I thought I'd help the optimists see a small bit of what drives much of this negativity, and in return hope someone will reciprocate by helping shed some light on what there is to be hopeful about.
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On that note, <a href="http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=150">viddy well</a>, dear readers, and expect further editorials on our favourite subject in future.
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elander_

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Oct 7, 2005
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"Whether or not you dislike turn-based, you cannot deny that it was a daring choice to use it during the time when Diablo, Ultima Online and Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall were dominating the RPG market. "

You can add System Shock to that list. It was released two years before Fallout. I bet Bioshock gameplay won't match up to it.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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elander_ said:
You can add System Shock to that list. It was released two years before Fallout. I bet Bioshock gameplay won't match up to it.

Not exactly an RPG, but good suggestion
 

somnus_lethe

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Interesting Quetions

First, I don't have any grand hopes or fears about Fallout 3 just yet. Having played through most of Oblivion, I didn't really hate it, but I didn't really love it either. It ended up being kind of generic and dull as it went along. What I missed most in Oblivion was the option for real choice and real development. Much like the second Deus Ex game, it offered the illusion of choice, but nothing you did really eventually affected the game world. the fact that the same developer is making Fallout 3 does not especially comfort me. But on to your questions . . .

Has anyone who enjoys first-person shooters ever found themselves wishing they could pause the game and let the computer take their headshots for them?

Most of your questions are straw-man arguments, but I'll humor them anyway. No. One of the great things about an FPS is pulling off a great headshot without the computer "doing it for you."

Conversely, has anyone who enjoys turn-based tactics ever longed for a first-person shooter mode between turns?

I have no idea how well the proposed hybrid system will work. Nobody knows, we're all just guessing. I am not filled with hope, but somebody, somewhere might just create a decent hybrid. I think the combat system in FO was (at least to some degree) a product of its time. Does Bethesda have a track record that says they have the chops to be the next great innovator? Nope.

When playing a hybrid FPS/RPG, such as Deus Ex or System Shock 2, does anyone find themselves wishing character skills were an alternative to their own rather than player and character skill complementing one another?

Frankly, if FO3 is as good as Deus Ex (the first one and not the second) or SS2, I will be thrilled beyond words. That dosn't mean it will really be what I hope FO3 could be, but it would be a fun game.

Is this really "innovation" when many games previously have featured similar mechanics of using a regenerating resource to slow gameplay and give the player an advantage?

It's not innovation. Do we want innovation? We want a good game, and innovate and fun are not synonymous.

Does anyone not believe that two distinct modes of play would be difficult to balance, leading to situations where one or the other is favourable to the point of being an exploit, a la Arcanum?

It would be difficult to balance. Not impossible, but difficult.

Alternatively, assuming the system is biased toward neither mode and perfectly balanced, does anyone relish the idea of lining up a perfect headshot only to be thwarted by random die rolls? Does this becomes much more of a concern in melee combat, where any miss within range is implausible and frustrates the player who fails despite adequate skill?

Random is still random. This is where things get a bit dicey for me. Most random number generators are fairly streaky. I could see a hybrid system where a point blank shot would always hit, but something like a critical chance would still be random.

Anyone find themselves wishing that utilitarian character generation was replaced by a lengthy tutorial mode and Fable style cuteness? Anyone think it's likely to be enjoyable more than once?

They're slapping their "story-based" mode on Fallout with regard to character generation. In previous Bethesda games it was only fun once. But I also bet you can blast through it and then just tweak the stats to your liking at the end. Or at the very least, save before the final tweak and then just reload and restart from there.

Have you ever wished that Fallout's colourful dialogue trees were replaced with a keyword system where you no longer evoke any kind of character, much less Fallout's classic archetypes?

Well, for me at least, the dialog trees were still pretty much a keyword system. I enjoyed the writing, but was never really at a loss for which response provoked the particular reaction I was looking for.

When playing Fallout, did you wish the game had less 1950's Americana influences? Less from cheesy Sci-Fi classics such as Them!? Less of the over-the-top comic book elements, such as the excessive death scenes, shining knights in power-armour, goofy looking mutants or stylish but impractical weaponry?

Frankly, I think this is the one area where they will probably get the most "right." These kinds of touches are all about background details, and for all their glaring faults, Bethesda does pay attention to details.

Did you find yourself longing for more generic elements? Rusted chunks of metal that would be at home in anything from Call of Duty to Flatout? Supermutants that wouldn't be out of place in High-Fantasy, Surival Horror or Sci-Fi? find yourself actively wishing that all game enemies were more like Resident Evil's Nemesis, Far Cry's Fatboy or Lord of the Rings' Uruk-Hai?

Postmodernism is all about taking bits and pieces from everywhere. Nothing (even FO) is really original in pop culture.

In short, ever wished Fallout looked less like Fallout and more like everything else?

Nope.

While playing Fallout, did anyone ever wish the player was given less authorship of their character? Ever wish you came with the baggage of your family and being a teenager?

It's their plot device. It does seem less drastic than the big crisis of a water chip, but seeking out a lost family member at least seems like a plausible way to start a story.

Are you happy to see both Super Mutants and the Brotherhood of Steel on the East coast, against all odds? Do you really want familiar faces at the cost of plausibility/continuity?

Having only played through FO1 and FO2, I'm not sure why this is "against all odds." But these elements are the iconic bits of the original story. I guess I would have to see this in action to determine if it felt plausible to me.

Does the moral choice of helping a stranger detonate a nuke in the middle of a town sound like one you'd agonise over? Does it sound any less cliched than any other "shady guy in the darkest corner of a bar room, waiting for some patsy in his evil scheme" plot arc?

It is a pretty obvious moral choice. But FO had obvious ones too. It would only be speculative to see if the more interesting moral objectives are a part of the new game.

Is a heavily armed ticket-collecting robot an example of wry humour, or more like those awesome moments in Police Academy when the timid Hooks suddenly snaps?

It's a bit of both.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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somnus_lethe said:
One of the great things about an FPS is pulling off a great headshot without the computer "doing it for you."

And does being able to pause to aim and fire - as opposed to having to deal with the action continuously - thus potentially rendering your aiming skills a fait-divers, seem like something that would improve an FPS or a game that's presented as an action RPG?


Well, for me at least, the dialog trees were still pretty much a keyword system. I enjoyed the writing, but was never really at a loss for which response provoked the particular reaction I was looking for.

Seeing through the limitations of the system is hardly an excuse to justify one word hyperlinks as being the same, or more adequate, than dialogue lines.


Frankly, I think this is the one area where they will probably get the most "right." These kinds of touches are all about background details, and for all their glaring faults, Bethesda does pay attention to details.

Perhaps, but if the more iconic elements such as Vault jumpsuits and cartoonish mutants are noticeably missing, what does that spell for the remaining details?


It's their plot device. It does seem less drastic than the big crisis of a water chip, but seeking out a lost family member at least seems like a plausible way to start a story.

I don't think the dramaticism of the main quest being suggested is the problem. Anything can be made to be plausible and carry emotional weight, but it's a premise that doesn't create any emotional ties to these characters but expect us to care for them. Players are exposed to a character - in this case, the main character's father - and it's assumed the players have to care enough for a character they just met in order to go find him.
 
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Re: Interesting Quetions

somnus_lethe said:
I think the combat system in FO was (at least to some degree) a product of its time.
Oh God. Why God, why must you test me so? I hate you, God.

As for you... no. Just no.
 

somnus_lethe

Novice
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Role-Player said:
And does being able to pause to aim and fire - as opposed to having to deal with the action continuously - thus potentially rendering your aiming skills a fait-divers, seem like something that would improve an FPS or a game that's presented as an action RPG?
To be clear, I don't really posses much in the way of "aiming skills." I am a poor FPS player at best. The proposed hybrid system does sound awkward, and I don't know the answer to making the best possible system. Personally I would like to see a turn-based combat system of some sort. I also don't think I will ever see such a thing again from a major developer. Some kind of "z-lock" (see Zelda) might be an interesting solution, but I don't know that it would be workable on a PC.

Seeing through the limitations of the system is hardly an excuse to justify one word hyperlinks as being the same, or more adequate, than dialogue lines.
I agree completely. Laziness is never the answer.

Perhaps, but if the more iconic elements such as Vault jumpsuits and cartoonish mutants are noticeably missing, what does that spell for the remaining details?
I don't actually know that these things are missing.

I don't think the dramaticism of the main quest being suggested is the problem.Anything can be made to be plausible and carry emotional weight, but it's a premise that doesn't create any emotional ties to these characters but expect us to care for them. Players are exposed to a character - in this case, the main character's father - and it's assumed the players have to care enough for a character they just met in order to go find him.
This still seems reasonable to me. If my father disappeared, I would want to find him. Any plot device probably assumes that there is additional back story that will need to be filled in.
 

somnus_lethe

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Re: Interesting Quetions

Futile Rhetoric said:
Oh God. Why God, why must you test me so? I hate you, God.

As for you... no. Just no.
Uh, okay. I bow before your superior rhetoric.

Wait, no I don't.
 
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Re: Interesting Quetions

somnus_lethe said:
Futile Rhetoric said:
Oh God. Why God, why must you test me so? I hate you, God.

As for you... no. Just no.
Uh, okay. I bow before your superior rhetoric.

Wait, no I don't.
No rhetoric is needed when the premise is this moronic, I just need to point it out, sit back, and laugh. Although afterwards, I cry a little, too.
 

somnus_lethe

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Re: Interesting Quetions

Futile Rhetoric said:
No rhetoric is needed when the premise is this moronic, I just need to point it out, sit back, and laugh. Although afterwards, I cry a little, too.
Okay, I will explain this using small words. Rhetoric implies logical premises strung together to make a point. Ad hominem attacks are inherently illogical.

My premise is that major studios no longer make turn based RPG games. I am not implying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a thing. If you would like to point out any major releases at present or in the near future that are turn based RPG games, I'll happily concede the point.

I would like to see a new turn-based Fallout. It's not going to happen. It might still be a good game, even if it's not turn based. It won't be the game I want, but that also doesn't by default make it terrible.
 

Zomg

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I'm tired of trying to read shit in the chicken guts of Bethesda marketing, so I'm just not going to pay attention until the real game has crystallized. I'm reasonably sure the game will be a pork chop in a dirty ashtray but reading NMA guys go on about continuity and so on makes my head hurt. Even if FO1 took continuity seriously (which it didn't) FO2 was over the fucking moon. Plus, the FO Bible is retarded. So shut up.
 
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This still seems reasonable to me. If my father disappeared, I would want to find him.

Of course. That's because you have a long backstory with your father. In a video game, you don't really. Especially not in the beginning.

Take Gorion in Baldur's Gate. I meet him, and in 2 minutes he is dead. No connection get's established, though one is forced. This doesn't work too well.

Seeing as the father is the plot device, and you only have character creation beforehand, I really doubt they will be able to make a connection.
 

aries202

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If we look at the info from a different angle, then it could be argued (or said) that you don't only have character creation to establish the emotional tie or bond with your father in Fallout 3.

If I'm able to read between the lines, it sounds as if your Father will be around for maybe the first ½-1 hour of the game, guiding your through life in the Vaults.

And yes, if my father were alive and he disappeared, I would go find, but I'm a grown man of about 40, I am. Do you really think an adolescent, age 19, be it male or female, would go seek his father, if he disappears - voluntarily.

I don't think so....but it sounds this way in the way Bethsoft is telling Fallout 3's story to Game Informer.

As for Gorion in Baldur's Gate, your character had a backstory with Gorion, not you. It made sense in the setting, style, tone & presence that Gorion was dead --- since it set your character free to discover the truth about herself (or himself).

Being a 19 year old guy or girl on the search for your father doesn't, imo, fit the Fallout setting.
(unless you're sort of forced out of the Vault somehow, but this part we don't know anything about - yet).
 

sabishii

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This still seems reasonable to me. If my father disappeared, I would want to find him. Any plot device probably assumes that there is additional back story that will need to be filled in.
Well, you may want to find him but perhaps others characters don't. What if someone hates his father? Or trusts that he will be fine?

The difference between this and the water chip is that in Fallout 1 you were *forced* out by your vault, which can happen to any character plausibly. And then after that you're free to do whatever you want, whether it's to find the water chip or not.

The father backstory isn't exactly unreasonable, but it doesn't give you the roleplaying freedom of the water chip.
 

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