Editorial Rockin' hardcore old school free style and stuff

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: BioWare

<a href="http://www.gamespy.com/">GameSpy</b> has an <A href="http://www.gamespy.com/articles/701/701787p3.html">editorial/interview</a> with various developers, marketting types, and other industry queens talking about <i>hardcore gamers</i> and do they really matter any more. I would have been happier with the piece if they'd just all up and said, <i>Why no. No, they don't. They haven't for quite some time! Please write more bullshit reviews for our upcoming games</i>. Anyway, some important people from <a href="http://www.bioware.com">BioWare</a> took part in it, so it's post-worthy. Here's a bit of it:
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<blockquote><b>GameSpy: Can hardcore gamers ever be harmful to development?
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Muzyka:</b> We think there's a definite difference between your garden-variety hardcore gamer and the vocal minority that sometimes erupt online on message boards. You need to be able to tell the difference between the two groups and understand that the people yelling the loudest aren't necessarily the majority of players, nor are they necessarily even an influential hardcore player or early adopter... We should note that a minority of hardcore gamers actually do seek niche-type features that might cause the mainstream gamers to get turned off by complexity or difficulty, and, to be successful in reaching a large audience with their titles, developers definitely need to be aware of this phenomenon and be careful to screen all comments carefully before changing their designs based on those comments from fans.</blockquote>
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So, only the hardcore opinions that matter are those that like the game? Especially if those hardcore gamers that like the game don't mind all the mainstream stuff in it? Wouldn't that mean those hardcore guys are just the mainstream guys? I'm so lost.
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And now for the <b>PUNCHLINE</b> written by who ever put together the piece:
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<blockquote>No wonder BioWare makes such great games. It's clear that both Zeschuk and Muzyka understand their audience and truly value their opinions. However, they're also good enough at what they do to sort out the good from the bad when it comes to critiques and suggestions. It makes sense that the bond between developers and hardcore gamers is the strongest out of all the other relationships we reviewed. It's also clear that a good developer just wants to make a good game, and that's something every type of gamer can appreciate.</blockquote>
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I'm still waiting for <A href="http://www.bioware.com">BioWare</a>'s <i>first</i> great game. One that doesn't feel like they brain stormed up a few decent ideas and then cut and pasted those ideas enough times to make the game x-hours long.
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Thanks, <b>Daigoji_Gai</b>!
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[Volourn]

BIO IS THE BEST EVER! LONG LIVE BIO! X0X0xX!!

YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY!!!!

 

[Jason]

I thought this was going to be an article about Slick Rick or Just-Ice. Please redo it.

 

[Jora]

We should note that a minority of hardcore gamers actually do seek niche-type features that might cause the mainstream gamers to get turned off by complexity or difficulty, and, to be successful in reaching a large audience with their titles, developers definitely need to be aware of this phenomenon and be careful to screen all comments carefully before changing their designs based on those comments from fans.

No wonder BioWare makes such great games. It's clear that both Zeschuk and Muzyka understand their audience and truly value their opinions. However, they're also good enough at what they do to sort out the good from the bad when it comes to critiques and suggestions.

How can he say this when Muzyka clearly said that they sort out the good from the bad by thinking how the proposed features affect sales? That their main concern isn't the quality of the feature?

 

[Oarfish]

There is no hope.

Hopefully things will get so bad with publishers pushing out cookie cutter crap that wont confuse the lower 40th percentile of the population that game developers will get backing for indie products that don't force them to cater to the lowest common denominator so they can stay sane. This is kind of what happens in Hollywood now to an extent. Unfortunately, I just read something (and have noted from personal experience) that game developers tend to burn out after <10 years and get higher paid jobs writing business / scientific apps. We are in deep shit if almost no one in the industry is over 35.

 

[Araanor]

Let's be fair, maybe Muzyka is thinking of Visceris and Volourn.

 

[Balor]

Well, if that is so, it's sertainly redeeming.
You must be an utter dumbfuck to actually pay any mind to a 'vocal minority' that consist of Volourn .

 

[vrok]

The last time I felt I had any impact on games and gaming, as an "influential" hardcore gamer, was when we made Counter-Strike go from a beta amateur mod to the monster e-sport it is today, which in turn greatly multiplied the audience for more recent quality FPS games like FEAR and Battlefield.

When it comes to RPGs however, the death of Troika and seeing Bioware go from BG2 to NWN to KOTOR has pretty much proven that what I think is less worth than any random moron who doesn't know or care about roleplaying. At least NWN2, even if it may suck by itself, will allow real gamers to create the RPG they want to play without the need to cater to morons. That was the greatest feature of the first game, because that game did indeed suck by itself.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Muzyka: The great thing about the hardcore player is that they don't let developers slip any poor gameplay or bad interface design into a successful game. We think the typical hardcore gamer is exceedingly knowledgeable and influential, and is able to help keep everyone honest -- as a result, they don't hamper new and exciting games that are of high quality, but rather help to spread the word about those titles.

No comment.

 

[RK47]

XD i burned oblviion copies for 5 of my mates. am i hardcore?

 

[Section8]

A hardcore gamer wants to play a game, while a casual gamer wants a mildly interactive narrative experience.

It's only one facet of a multitude of differences between two ill-defined and idiotic terms, but I think it greatly summarises the difference in attitudes between experienced gamers and the newcomers, with particular regard to RPGs. If nothing else it would explain why the "story with timesinks" formula that JRPGs and most of Bioware's shit follow is so popular.

 

[bryce777]

XD i burned oblviion copies for 5 of my mates. am i hardcore?

WORD 2 YOUR MOM

 

[mckracken]

Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 rocked bigtime and are singlehandedly responsible for the rpg renaissance.

Get a clue Saint Proverbius.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

 

[glasnost]

There is no hope.

I don't see there being any hope until sales no longer matter. "The Industry" itself is antithetical to unadulterated creativity. If you're worried about reaching an audience then it is inevitable that you will compromise your work for the sake of a surer profit. Great games/inspired developers can transcend this situation, but the general picture is dismal. It's why the neatest stuff is happening in independent mods, or in genres that have little or no "demand", like contemporary text adventures.

Warren Spector was right when he said that it is imperative that developers find alternative sources of funding. They need to allow themselves the freedom to create without being constrained by any pressure to turn a profit/please a market. Art isn't made to cater to perceived majority opinion, rather it is the creative outlet for an inspired individual. If other people like what they see, great. If they want to sponsor you/encourage with money, great. But the direct ties between making a game and selling it on a market are poisonous.

And really, games made as a commodity to be consumed aren't really worth bothering with. But this is all wildeyed idealism. The sooner Oscar Wilde's vision (a lengthy article worth reading) is realized the better!

 

[sleepy]

Unfortunately, I just read something (and have noted from personal experience) that game developers tend to burn out after <10 years and get higher paid jobs writing business / scientific apps. We are in deep shit if almost no one in the industry is over 35.

I like to imagine that good portion of young developers, perhaps graduates from schools built for this era, have plenty of idealism and high hopes of making better games and new inventions. And having passion for games and experience of good games, things that were done right, they actually may be good developers or at least aim to make value products. Then realities of market hit? Some suit with money forces them to make pretty looking shit just because it sells? Well, whatever the gist of it, results are quite visible.

Anyway my point being young developers may have a lot to contribute. Maybe it just doesn't make through the Mean Money Making Machine.

If nothing else it would explain why the "story with timesinks" formula that JRPGs and most of Bioware's shit follow is so popular.

I favor a real game greatly over those "story with timesinks"-pieces but don't mind the latter so much if the story is very good. Often that is not the case. I'd be happier if they would just remove the timesinks, leave in some sense of interactivity - perhaps alternative paths, and tell a professionally written powerful story. And while we're at it why not drop most of the stupid hype, adverts for non-existent features, and call it a storybook-game that it really is. I'd 'play games' like that, or um, read stories like that - I'm a sucker for good story.
Hum, they could hype it as and all new revolutional game-type.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 rocked bigtime and are singlehandedly responsible for the rpg renaissance.

Get a clue Saint Proverbius.

Renaissance? See, in a renaissance, things actually get better. So, no, that never happened.

 

[Oarfish]

Anyway my point being young developers may have a lot to contribute.

Yeah, I phrased it wrong. I was complaining about the fact that the industry burns a lot of people out, rather than the fact that kids are stupid.

 

[sleepy]

Quite, I understand.
And I do second your notion of it maybe getting so bad with the general crap publishers spew out that "game developers will get backing for indie products that don't force them to cater to the lowest common denominator so they can stay sane". That would be welcome.

 

[bryce777]

One real issue is that a lot of young developers have never PLAYED a decent rpg, though. I think this is more and mroe of a problem as the gap since the golden age grows and grows.

 

[LlamaGod]

Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 rocked bigtime and are singlehandedly responsible for the rpg renaissance.

Get a clue Saint Proverbius.

Renaissance? See, in a renaissance, things actually get better. So, no, that never happened.

I would also imagine that in a renaissance new ideas are founded and explored?

Fantasy real-time D&D RPGs have been around since the 80s, so YEAH.

 

[Nicolai]

I found the Baldur's Gate series to be pretty alright when I first played the games back in the 90s, but, eh, they've not really aged as well as some of the other CRPGs of the period.

 

[Jaesun]

Main Entry: re·nais·sance
Pronunciation: "re-n&-'sän(t)s, -'zän(t)s, -'säns, -'zäns, 're-n&-", chiefly British ri-'nA-s&n(t)s
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French, from Middle French, rebirth, from renaistre to be born again, from Latin renasci, from re- + nasci to be born -- more at NATION
1 capitalized a : the transitional movement in Europe between medieval and modern times beginning in the 14th century in Italy, lasting into the 17th century, and marked by a humanistic revival of classical influence expressed in a flowering of the arts and literature and by the beginnings of modern science b : the period of the Renaissance c : the neoclassic style of architecture prevailing during the Renaissance
2 often capitalized : a movement or period of vigorous artistic and intellectual activity
3 : REBIRTH, REVIVAL

 

[RK47]

maybe it died after giving birth. lol

RPG like KOTOR getting so many RPG-awards is probably a good evidence why it's so lacking nowadays, while those games we really wanted to like , something like TOEE gets the bug-bomb.

 

[Claw]

I demand that mckracken is stripped of his username. He's soiling my childhood memories.