Yet another Piracy: Good or Bad? discussion

[fantadomat]

I was sure this was a thread about a new "Pirates!" game, quite disappointing.

Must admit that pirates is one of the best porn movies that are made,certainly better than the recent pirates of the caribbeans movie.

 

[Decado]

What's particularly galling is that PC games are luxury items.

No, they're ideas.

Books are items. When transferred to a digital medium, do they suddenly become "ideas"? How? Why? Explain this.

ETA: Another way of looking at this:

Monopoly is a board game and, one assumes, an item. Is the video game version of Monopoly no longer an item, but instead an idea? If so, how does this transformation take place?

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

I was sure this was a thread about a new "Pirates!" game, quite disappointing.

Must admit that pirates is one of the best porn movies that are made,certainly better than the recent pirates of the caribbeans movie.

 

[fantadomat]

I was sure this was a thread about a new "Pirates!" game, quite disappointing.

Must admit that pirates is one of the best porn movies that are made,certainly better than the recent pirates of the caribbeans movie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirates_(2005_film)

https://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ph5920e98558e86

 

[majestik12]

What exactly is the difference between

• you not paying and playing the game and
  
• you not paying and not playing the game?

In either case you don't pay for what's being sold = lost sale = direct financial harm to the developer.

If anything, this non-playing kind of piracy is a much bigger issue, because there are orders of magnitude more non-playing pirates than playing ones.
And unlike playing pirates, those can literally kill a game developer's business.

 

[the_shadow]

What's particularly galling is that PC games are luxury items.

No, they're ideas. Admittedly a lot of ideas, but nonetheless, they aren't material goods.

They aren't just 'ideas', they are ideas that someone has invested their time and expertise into refining and converting into an interactive digital product.

. People feel entitled to ideas because those get shared all the time without any expectation of compensation. It takes no work.

That depends on the type of 'idea'. Sitting around with your mates at the pub and saying 'Hey, wouldn't a flying car be cool!' doesn't take much work. Actually designing the plans for a working flying car is a bit trickier.

Expecting people to create PC games for you (do work) without compensation would be silly,

Yes!

but

trying to hoard them is even more silly

LOL, what? Game companies don't spend years designing a video game and then just sit on it, refusing to distribute it. They market it to the general public, which is the exact opposite of 'hoarding'.

... for the express purpose of impoverishing other people.

Surely those other people can just go off and come up with their own ideas? After all, 'it takes no work', right?

 

[the_shadow]

What exactly is the difference between

• you not paying and playing the game and
  
• you not paying and not playing the game?

The difference is that one involves copyright infringement and the other doesn't. I'll let you figure out which is which.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Sharing the idea takes no work (at least in this era.)

What's particularly galling is that PC games are luxury items.

No, they're ideas.

Books are items. When transferred to a digital medium, do they suddenly become "ideas"? How? Why? Explain this.

ETA: Another way of looking at this:

Monopoly is a board game and, one assumes, an item. Is the video game version of Monopoly no longer an item, but instead an idea? If so, how does this transformation take place?

The game of monopoly is a concept, just like any other game. If I make my own board of monopoly have I stolen it? Of course not. Do I owe the creator of the game some money? Legally, sure. But the fucker is long dead and has long, long since been made far more wealthy than he ever really deserved to be.

Ditto for books. If I quote a book, have I stolen some portion of the book? Of course not. People don't go around asking for royalties (except maybe Steven King, who apparently wants to sue libraries or something?) for sharing this sort of crap. If there were any sanity, you could go to a library, take out a copy of fallout 1, and not return it because for fucks sake it's a digital copy and the library doesn't need it back like they do their paperbacks.

Diamonds are luxury items. If you steal one, the former owner needs to replace it to keep enjoying his diamond, and he won't be able to sell it to someone else either.


Protip for any die hard anti-pirates on the board, basically all the avatars and about half the smilies and shit are owned by someone else, and you owe them a bajillion dollars worth of royalties for using them. Feel free to turn yourselves in and make reparations, fucking hypocrites.

 

[Damned Registrations]

LOL, what? Game companies don't spend years designing a video game and then just sit on it, refusing to distribute it. They market it to the general public, which is the exact opposite of 'hoarding'.

Sure... except even after they 'sell' it to you, you still don't own it, and they spend vast sums of money ensuring that is the case as best they can.

I think the thing I find most hilarious is that the same morons bemoaning piracy often happily make use of keyseller sites, which actually do cost developers money (to the point of putting some out of business) because those sites are basically just laundering stolen credit cards, and it's the developers that take the hit when they reverse the sale.

 

[c2007]

^ so far poorfags seem to be winning in my little contest.

And what kind of fag are you? The bitchy whiny one?

Turkroach Ireneaus forgot to take his medication again.

That is rich mate,the most buttfucked fag is rating me butthurt,you broke my hearth fag,now i will go cry in the corner for the next 6 hours. My soul is broken beyond repair!

The Codex is a prestigious place. Using fag twice in a pejorative sense is a poor fit. Calming down will save you the trouble of appearing obviously butthurt, and give you a chance to be more creative in your retort. The effort goes a long way, one storyfag to another!

You are trying to pick a lock with a club. Roll again, put more points in Int. Save the club for Mondblut's ass when you two get a room.

 

[Norfleet]

The problem with "I can't afford it, so I steal it," is that it breeds disrespect for the idea of intellectual property.

I don't see the problem with this. This isn't a notion that SHOULD be respected, at least in the form that is presently espoused.

Books are items. When transferred to a digital medium, do they suddenly become "ideas"? How? Why? Explain this.

Because there is no longer a physical object that possesses exclusivity. If I have the book, you no longer have the book. If I have the information contained in the book, you don't lose the information contained in the book.

Monopoly is a board game and, one assumes, an item. Is the video game version of Monopoly no longer an item, but instead an idea? If so, how does this transformation take place?

It takes place when someone transfers the rules of the game into a piece of information, thus removing its exclusive property. If I have the physical board game box, you no longer have the box. If I have the information implementing the rules of Monopoly, it doesn't stop you from also having it.

 

[fantadomat]

^ so far poorfags seem to be winning in my little contest.

And what kind of fag are you? The bitchy whiny one?

Turkroach Ireneaus forgot to take his medication again.

That is rich mate,the most buttfucked fag is rating me butthurt,you broke my hearth fag,now i will go cry in the corner for the next 6 hours. My soul is broken beyond repair!

The Codex is a prestigious place. Using fag twice in a pejorative sense is a poor fit. Calming down will save you the trouble of appearing obviously butthurt, and give you a chance to be more creative in your retort. The effort goes a long way, one storyfag to another!

You are trying to pick a lock with a club. Roll again, put more points in Int. Save the club for Mondblut's ass when you two get a room.

I am pretty chill on the codex,it is the internet,no need to get angry for such things. I was going for club assfuck. And i do love to loose some INT from time to time.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

^ so far poorfags seem to be winning in my little contest.

And what kind of fag are you? The bitchy whiny one?

Turkroach Ireneaus forgot to take his medication again.

That is rich mate,the most buttfucked fag is rating me butthurt,you broke my hearth fag,now i will go cry in the corner for the next 6 hours. My soul is broken beyond repair!

The Codex is a prestigious place. Using fag twice in a pejorative sense is a poor fit. Calming down will save you the trouble of appearing obviously butthurt, and give you a chance to be more creative in your retort. The effort goes a long way, one storyfag to another!

You are trying to pick a lock with a club. Roll again, put more points in Int. Save the club for Mondblut's ass when you two get a room.

You sound like a faggot. And not the cute trap kind. The annoying kind.

 

[the_shadow]

Sharing the idea takes no work (at least in this era.)

Refining and executing an idea into tangible work that has unique artistic value (be it a movie, book, script, or video game) does take a lot of work, particularly if you want it to be profitable. This is a fact you either choose to ignore, or perhaps are completely unaware of.

Your comment on sharing an idea taking 'no work' is also false. Yeah, it's pretty easy to share something you wrote on a bar napkin with your mates at the pub, but distributing video games is a bit more involved. Indeed, there are distribution platforms such as STEAM that make money off doing so.

Because there is no longer a physical object that possesses exclusivity

So by your logic, the price of a movie or book should only include the cost of the DVD/paper it is copied onto.

I don't see the problem with this. This isn't a notion that SHOULD be respected, at least in the form that is presently espoused.

Thankfully there are laws in place to punish people who don't respect intellectual property. Personally, I think the law should allow for the PCs of unrepentant software pirates to be crushed into tiny cubes, similar to what we do with the cars of unrepentant hoons who flagrantly disrespect traffic laws. Although it wouldn't surprise me if they'd purchased a new rig within the week, even though they 'can't afford' to pay for the games.

 

[Norfleet]

Yeah, it's pretty easy to share something you wrote on a bar napkin with your mates at the pub, but distributing video games is a bit more involved.

You say this, and yet for some reason, there exists a distribution platform that manages to accomplish this without charging users anything! How does this work?

So by your logic, the price of a movie or book should only include the cost of the DVD/paper it is copied onto.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[the_shadow]

Yeah, it's pretty easy to share something you wrote on a bar napkin with your mates at the pub, but distributing video games is a bit more involved.

You say this, and yet for some reason, there exists a distribution platform that manages to accomplish this without charging users anything! How does this work?

I have no idea which distribution platform you are talking about, nor is it particularly important. Not all distribution methods are equal, and the cost, ease and effectiveness would vary depending on the platform used. Sure, you could design your own website with some basic HTML and upload the game, but I doubt you'd get as much exposure as having an official professionally designed web page with proper marketing, or using another company's digital distribution platform.

So by your logic, the price of a movie or book should only include the cost of the DVD/paper it is copied onto.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I can only assume it would sound reasonable to someone who feels entitled to someone else's time, expertise and artistic output while not considering tangible expenses such as wages, overheads and marketing costs. When you visit the dentist, do you only expect to pay for the material used to create your fillings? If you worked as a security guard, you wouldn't mind if your boss refused to pay you since you weren't producing anything tangible?

 

[Damned Registrations]

I already acknowledged people deserve to be paid for their work. I just think the current way that gets done is retarded, as it's basically a gambling scheme for the investors and encourages all kinds of dishonest bullshit. Work by commission makes far, far more sense. That's kind of how it works anyways, since by the time a game is playable, everyone's already been paid in 99% of cases, and buying the game is effectively commissioning another game, with no control over what it is. We basically have a sort of honor system which seems to function well enough for digital media- nobody making great games is going out of business due to piracy. If they were, GOG would be a ghost town, since it has a DRM free policy. OTOH, it works like shit for IP wrapped in physical goods, like overpriced medicine or electronics that expires 3 days after warranty.

marketing costs

If the concept of marketing and everyone who does it for a living died over night I would not shed a single tear. Easily one of the worst concepts in human history, professional lying.

 

[Decado]

The problem with "I can't afford it, so I steal it," is that it breeds disrespect for the idea of intellectual property.

I don't see the problem with this. This isn't a notion that SHOULD be respected, at least in the form that is presently espoused.

Books are items. When transferred to a digital medium, do they suddenly become "ideas"? How? Why? Explain this.

Because there is no longer a physical object that possesses exclusivity. If I have the book, you no longer have the book. If I have the information contained in the book, you don't lose the information contained in the book.

Monopoly is a board game and, one assumes, an item. Is the video game version of Monopoly no longer an item, but instead an idea? If so, how does this transformation take place?

It takes place when someone transfers the rules of the game into a piece of information, thus removing its exclusive property. If I have the physical board game box, you no longer have the box. If I have the information implementing the rules of Monopoly, it doesn't stop you from also having it.

But you haven't explained how a physical item turns into an idea. By your logic, it is possible to steal a Kindle, but not the books on the Kindle. Is this correct?

 

[Damned Registrations]

You've got it backwards. Ideas allow for the creation of physical objects, but the ideas don't disappear when you do so. Which is why you can make copies. And why stealing a bowl of chili is stealing, while copying the method for making a bowl of chili is not.

 

[fantadomat]

You've got it backwards. Ideas allow for the creation of physical objects, but the ideas don't disappear when you do so. Which is why you can make copies. And why stealing a bowl of chili is stealing, while copying the method for making a bowl of chili is not.

You are wasting your time on him,he is empty flesh container.

 

[c2007]

^ so far poorfags seem to be winning in my little contest.

And what kind of fag are you? The bitchy whiny one?

Turkroach Ireneaus forgot to take his medication again.

That is rich mate,the most buttfucked fag is rating me butthurt,you broke my hearth fag,now i will go cry in the corner for the next 6 hours. My soul is broken beyond repair!

The Codex is a prestigious place. Using fag twice in a pejorative sense is a poor fit. Calming down will save you the trouble of appearing obviously butthurt, and give you a chance to be more creative in your retort. The effort goes a long way, one storyfag to another!

You are trying to pick a lock with a club. Roll again, put more points in Int. Save the club for Mondblut's ass when you two get a room.

You sound like a faggot. And not the cute trap kind. The annoying kind.

You're welcome to suck my dick if you're curious

 

[Norfleet]

When you visit the dentist, do you only expect to pay for the material used to create your fillings? If you worked as a security guard, you wouldn't mind if your boss refused to pay you since you weren't producing anything tangible?

In this cases, an actual physical service is being performed. I would most certainly not expect to pay for anything more than the material if I were simply ordering the filling material off e-Bay and then installing them myself off a "How to Dentist" guide on the Internet written by said dentist. I would certainly NOT expect to pay for a guard if, instead of having a guard, I simply decided to post "24/7 Online Security Camera Footage" and leave it up to random people on the Internet to watch it and decide whether or not to call the police.

 

[the_shadow]

I already acknowledged people deserve to be paid for their work. I just think the current way that gets done is retarded, as it's basically a gambling scheme for the investors and encourages all kinds of dishonest bullshit. Work by commission makes far, far more sense. That's kind of how it works anyways[...]

I have no idea what you are saying, and why you hold that position. How is the current way 'a gambling scheme for investors', and what 'kinds of dishonest bullshit' does it discourage? And how do you envisage an ideal commission based system?

marketing costs

If the concept of marketing and everyone who does it for a living died over night I would not shed a single tear. Easily one of the worst concepts in human history, professional lying.

Which is irrelevant to my observation that distribution of electronic media isn't always 'easy', especially if you want to attract a large audience and therefore recoup expenses and generate a profit. The cavalier attitude some people show in this thread towards the time, cost and effort that goes into developing and distributing intellectual property makes me wonder if they have only ever been consumers of such content, rather than producers.

In this cases, an actual physical service is being performed.

In that case, an actual physical service is performed when an idea is cultivated and transformed into computer code. I'd argue that there is more a physical service being provided there than when you get a check-up at the dentist or doctor, or a consultation with your lawyer.

I would certainly NOT expect to pay for a guard if, instead of having a guard, I simply decided to post "24/7 Online Security Camera Footage" and leave it up to random people on the Internet to watch it and decide whether or not to call the police.

So you expect people to give up their time and expertise for free. That's a pretty big sense of entitlement you have there, although not quite as bad as expecting someone to give you their time, expertise *and* creativity for free. I'm actually starting to sympathize with developers putting all sorts of obtrusive DRM in their software, even though it does inconvenience people who respect intellectual property.

 

[Fowyr]

Personally, I think the law should allow for the PCs of unrepentant software pirates to be crushed into tiny cubes, similar to what we do with the cars of unrepentant hoons who flagrantly disrespect traffic laws. Although it wouldn't surprise me if they'd purchased a new rig within the week, even though they 'can't afford' to pay for the games.

Personally, I would hit you with a rebar, stab you, dismember you and then dissolve you in the sodium hydroxide.

But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

 

[Norfleet]

So you expect people to give up their time and expertise for free.

I don't expect any such thing. But consider: Mozart created all of his great works in a time when copyrights simply didn't exist at all. Yet somehow, he still managed to get paid and live and die like a rockstar. Are you saying that the crud people turn out today is somehow better than Mozart? How did stuff ever get created at all back then?