World building is king

[Lilura]

Didnt mean much when all he could deliver was a steaming pile of shit.

Why is PoE a steaming pile of shit, Lhynn? This isn't to start an argument. I'm just interested.

 

[Hyperion]

Nice exaggeration.

We both know that isn't happening here.

Note: "Joined Saturday."

Haven't fallen far enough down the rabbit hole yet.

 

[SRPattison]

Years ago I used to covet the "build your own" world and "be whoever you want to be" game. Now so many games have tried to deliver on that, I always find that in some aspect every one of them fails to meet the expectations I set. Some have argued that no one has really found the right balance.

Honestly, now I find myself more irritated at the arbitrary freedom given to the player taking away from the overall gameplay. My absolutely favorite games in recent memory have all been heavily cinematic driven, like playing a part in your own movie. The Mass Effect series, Tomb Raider, Quantum Break, even the Dragon Age and Assassin's Creed games to an extent. When it comes to games I judge mainly on mechanics, we're talking things like Overwatch, Battlefront, Destiny, Farcry Primal.

 

[Comte]

They might even seek but I doubt they'd ever share it.

It's like fucking a fat or ugly chick. You might do it and even enjoy but you'll never tell your friends.

Riding a fat chick is like riding a moped its fun until your friends see you doing it.

 

[Neanderthal]

Both, make mechanics fit wi world an world building reinforce mechanics, MCA did this brilliantly wi Dead Money. Ultima VII did it, PST did it as far as it could wi IE engine, Fallout an BaK did it, an you got more cohesive experience because on it if you ask me.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

My absolutely favorite games in recent memory have all been heavily cinematic driven, like playing a part in your own movie. The Mass Effect series, Tomb Raider, Quantum Break, even the Dragon Age and Assassin's Creed games to an extent.

Welcome to the Codex, enjoy your stay!

 

[Scroo]

Mechanics is always king. Good worldbuilding might help for a while but if the mechanics suck it's more likely to get burned out on it than if the setting is kinda meh.

 

[Ulminati]

Poor mechanics, poor world building = shit
Poor mechanics, good world building = boring walking simulator
Good mechanics, poor world building = good for what it is
Good mechanics, good world building = good game

 

[RK47]

Rape mods, Poor mechanics, poor world building = pron
Rape mods, Poor mechanics, good world building = pron
Rape mods, Good mechanics, poor world building = pron
Rape mods, Good mechanics, good world building = pron

 

[Johannes]

World builders was kangz

 

[J_C]

Years ago I used to covet the "build your own" world and "be whoever you want to be" game. Now so many games have tried to deliver on that, I always find that in some aspect every one of them fails to meet the expectations I set. Some have argued that no one has really found the right balance.

Honestly, now I find myself more irritated at the arbitrary freedom given to the player taking away from the overall gameplay. My absolutely favorite games in recent memory have all been heavily cinematic driven, like playing a part in your own movie. The Mass Effect series, Tomb Raider, Quantum Break, even the Dragon Age and Assassin's Creed games to an extent. When it comes to games I judge mainly on mechanics, we're talking things like Overwatch, Battlefront, Destiny, Farcry Primal.

Overwatch, Battlefront, Destiny, Farcry Primal

We ain't mentioning these words around 'ere.

 

[MediantSamuel]

Years ago I used to covet the "build your own" world and "be whoever you want to be" game. Now so many games have tried to deliver on that, I always find that in some aspect every one of them fails to meet the expectations I set. Some have argued that no one has really found the right balance.

Honestly, now I find myself more irritated at the arbitrary freedom given to the player taking away from the overall gameplay. My absolutely favorite games in recent memory have all been heavily cinematic driven, like playing a part in your own movie. The Mass Effect series, Tomb Raider, Quantum Break, even the Dragon Age and Assassin's Creed games to an extent. When it comes to games I judge mainly on mechanics, we're talking things like Overwatch, Battlefront, Destiny, Farcry Primal.

You seem like a nice dude, but yeesh.. Listing those games on this particular site is uh, brave, to say the least.

 

[Mozg]

I think mechanics and worldbuilding (or plot, or characters) are both good but also fundamentally pretty antagonistic. I think it's a real point of artistry when someone manages to get them to hold together in an emulsion for a while.

 

[Lhynn]

Didnt mean much when all he could deliver was a steaming pile of shit.

Why is PoE a steaming pile of shit, Lhynn? This isn't to start an argument. I'm just interested.

I dont even know where to start. The combat is irredeemably bad, it has gone through many iterations but it basically consists on tanking with your tanks and damage dealing with your non tanks, spamming your per encounter. Its all set up in such a way that every encounter in the game plays the exact same (you can change it up, like having a party full of wizards, but the only thing this does is make every encounter in the game play the exact same in its own special and different way. at the end up the day you are still doing the exact same thing you built your party to do in every encounter). There are like 3 encounters in the entire 60 hours and something game that force you to change your default tactics, and do something different, the encounters take about 20 seconds to beat because the entire game plays out too fast, it relies too much on the pause function and you find yourself pausing every second, never actually getting to see your orders playing out and the tides turning, you kinda just assume what you did gave you bigger numbers, theres no real visual feedback, other than special effects that are so over the top you literally cant see whats going on.
The writing is extremely boring and bloated. Its like the storytelling from a DM that wants to get "everything right", therefore never going any place new or interesting. You end up skipping all of it and and reading the journal because its very tedious and gray. And it has this obsession with exposition, almost every npc will outright shove historical facts of the setting down your throat, like a passive-aggressive Encarta AI.

The itemization is boring. No real gamechangers there, just slight modifiers to numbers. About the only thing that does have some impact is your choice of armor, and its set up in such a way that heavily armored individuals are not very dangerous, as their attack speed can go down by up to 50%. So you end up with a naked back row and a heavily armored front row. Its my understanding that this has changed because of the retarded amount of teleporting enemies in the game forcing you to armor your back row, but the solution to the problem of a naked backrow is worse than the problem itself, feels like the developer is cheating.

The character system is a complete screw up, both defenses and accuracy increase with levels, so it kinda stays all the same merely increasing the gap between the things you chose to specialize in and the things you didnt, like those that lag behind in defense, stuff just gets worse and worse for them in the defensive side. Mostly because of the retarded decision of tying accuracy and critical, have too much accuracy compared to your enemies defense? your attack is upgraded to a critical, this creates scenarios where every hit is a critical, and armor not only doesnt help, it actively harms your characters survivability by keeping him from acting fast enough to do something (not that it matters, combat plays so fast that it takes less than a second for your average mook to kill anything with low defense). Stats themselves dont matter much either, the increases of each stat are so minuscule that they are almost an afterthought, like for example Might (which is strength, but its also mystical power and it also affects bullet and bolt damage, not because sawyer is lazy, hes anything but lazy, hes just incompetent and couldnt come up with a stat system that makes sense) increases damage by 3% per point, the problem here is that the system forces you to minmax to see any difference, or just dont bother. Because at the end of the day it really doesnt matter, the system was designed to diminish the impact of the player choices as much as possible.
Also % increases ensure that all the variables are kept in check and that the game remains pretty much the same through. Nothing is more telling of this than the level scaling DLC. Magical gear is what keeps you ahead of the curve and its what ends up making a difference, magical gear that you are better off crafting yourself by the way. The problem with this as i said before is that they are small modifiers that add up to your stats. Most of the gear that was gamechanging actually got patched out of the game.

I could keep going and going, talking about the super boring companions, about quests that are so mundane and devoid of anything interesting or unique that you want to kill yourself, about the fact that you are forced to do them if you want to level up, which makes you resent the game because they dont feel optional. Could talk about the lack of encounter design, the abysmal level design, the incredible amount of pointless trash mobs. The complete failure at world building by failing to establish the importance of the biggest plot point in the game, or the second biggest plot point, or the third.

About the only interesting thing about Piles of Excrement was roxors review and the amount of butthurt it caused among its die hard obsidian fans.

 

[SRPattison]

Welcome to the Codex, enjoy your stay!

Thanks a bunch!

We ain't mentioning these words around 'ere.

I see that now. I seriously underestimated you guys. Apologies!

You seem like a nice dude, but yeesh.. Listing those games on this particular site is uh, brave, to say the least.

You know what they say about the difference between brave and stupid... Regardless, 'those games' have pretty much been the standard as far as AAA production value and quality over the past several years.

I'll amend my original statement with the following:

No game in recent memory has captured my attention as much as Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn did back when I was all of 11 or 12. I spent an entire summer glued to the computer day and night playing that through, more than a few playthroughs. I can't really remember playing any other game through from beginning to end more than once with the exception of maybe Morrowind or Skyrim. I've had gamer ADD recently, barely unable to finish most games; either because they didn't capture my attention fully, or the 100+ hour completionist in me demands more time than I can give. Fallout 4 is the first RPG I can actually remember being unable to tear myself away from, finishing it from beginning to end without long breaks in between. I think I managed a 60 hour play through in less than a week.

I've really enjoyed Divinity: Original Sin. I modded it so I could play with 2 other friends. Needless to say, in turn-based style waiting on 2 friends to make their decisions...I still haven't completely finished that one either.

I have high hopes for the new inXile stuff.

Honestly, I'm really looking forward to sifting through these forums and finding some hidden gems and titles that I've missed.

 

[Viata]

I can't really remember playing any other game through from beginning to end more than once with the exception of maybe Morrowind or Skyrim. I've had gamer ADD recently, barely unable to finish most games; either because they didn't capture my attention fully, or the 100+ hour completionist in me demands more time than I can give. Fallout 4 is the first RPG I can actually remember being unable to tear myself away from, finishing it from beginning to end without long breaks in between. I think I managed a 60 hour play through in less than a week.

You are not helping yourself, mate.

 

[Tito Anic]

Yet, our most beloved games all excel at world-building - PS:T, Bloodlines, Morrowind, Gothic, etc...

Morrowind has shitty combat, non-existing C&C, level scaled loot, NPC's glued to the ground and somebody compares it with Gothic, Bloodlines, P:ST

 

[Viata]

Yet, our most beloved games all excel at world-building - PS:T, Bloodlines, Morrowind, Gothic, etc...

Morrowind has shitty combat, non-existing C&C, level scaled loot, NPC's glued to the ground and somebody compares it with Gothic, Bloodlines, P:ST

That is why he said world-building.

 

[Sacred82]

whynotboth.gif

Pillars is not shit because of its world building.

No, but it's worse shit because of it.

The problem is that Pillars was designed to be a throwback to Infinity Engine games, which weren't strong on world building. Being set in the Forgotten Realms they had rich lore. but that's about it. Being isometric with pre-rendered backgrounds there was no navigation of the actual environment, and the world wasn't very interactive. PS:T had great dialogue but it was clear from the beginning that Pillars wouldn't try to come close to that. Still, with Pillars, a lot of care went into designing the world, down to its languages. The same amount of care and attention to detail in a Bethesda game (with its longer development cycle) would be cool.

 

[Sacred82]

Isn't this just another "storyfag/combatfag/kc" poll?

I think it's a bit more nuanced, for the exact reason that in discussions here anything that's not mechanics seems to be lumped in with story.

 

[Tito Anic]

That is why he said world-building.

All parts of world-building except topography, architecture imo are handicapped in it.

 

[Raziel]

Didnt mean much when all he could deliver was a steaming pile of shit.

Why is PoE a steaming pile of shit, Lhynn? This isn't to start an argument. I'm just interested.

I dont even know where to start. The combat is irredeemably bad, it has gone through many iterations but it basically consists on tanking with your tanks and damage dealing with your non tanks, spamming your per encounter. Its all set up in such a way that every encounter in the game plays the exact same (you can change it up, like having a party full of wizards, but the only thing this does is make every encounter in the game play the exact same in its own special and different way. at the end up the day you are still doing the exact same thing you built your party to do in every encounter). There are like 3 encounters in the entire 60 hours and something game that force you to change your default tactics, and do something different, the encounters take about 20 seconds to beat because the entire game plays out too fast, it relies too much on the pause function and you find yourself pausing every second, never actually getting to see your orders playing out and the tides turning, you kinda just assume what you did gave you bigger numbers, theres no real visual feedback, other than special effects that are so over the top you literally cant see whats going on.
The writing is extremely boring and bloated. Its like the storytelling from a DM that wants to get "everything right", therefore never going any place new or interesting. You end up skipping all of it and and reading the journal because its very tedious and gray. And it has this obsession with exposition, almost every npc will outright shove historical facts of the setting down your throat, like a passive-aggressive Encarta AI.

The itemization is boring. No real gamechangers there, just slight modifiers to numbers. About the only thing that does have some impact is your choice of armor, and its set up in such a way that heavily armored individuals are not very dangerous, as their attack speed can go down by up to 50%. So you end up with a naked back row and a heavily armored front row. Its my understanding that this has changed because of the retarded amount of teleporting enemies in the game forcing you to armor your back row, but the solution to the problem of a naked backrow is worse than the problem itself, feels like the developer is cheating.

The character system is a complete screw up, both defenses and accuracy increase with levels, so it kinda stays all the same merely increasing the gap between the things you chose to specialize in and the things you didnt, like those that lag behind in defense, stuff just gets worse and worse for them in the defensive side. Mostly because of the retarded decision of tying accuracy and critical, have too much accuracy compared to your enemies defense? your attack is upgraded to a critical, this creates scenarios where every hit is a critical, and armor not only doesnt help, it actively harms your characters survivability by keeping him from acting fast enough to do something (not that it matters, combat plays so fast that it takes less than a second for your average mook to kill anything with low defense). Stats themselves dont matter much either, the increases of each stat are so minuscule that they are almost an afterthought, like for example Might (which is strength, but its also mystical power and it also affects bullet and bolt damage, not because sawyer is lazy, hes anything but lazy, hes just incompetent and couldnt come up with a stat system that makes sense) increases damage by 3% per point, the problem here is that the system forces you to minmax to see any difference, or just dont bother. Because at the end of the day it really doesnt matter, the system was designed to diminish the impact of the player choices as much as possible.
Also % increases ensure that all the variables are kept in check and that the game remains pretty much the same through. Nothing is more telling of this than the level scaling DLC. Magical gear is what keeps you ahead of the curve and its what ends up making a difference, magical gear that you are better off crafting yourself by the way. The problem with this as i said before is that they are small modifiers that add up to your stats. Most of the gear that was gamechanging actually got patched out of the game.

I could keep going and going, talking about the super boring companions, about quests that are so mundane and devoid of anything interesting or unique that you want to kill yourself, about the fact that you are forced to do them if you want to level up, which makes you resent the game because they dont feel optional. Could talk about the lack of encounter design, the abysmal level design, the incredible amount of pointless trash mobs. The complete failure at world building by failing to establish the importance of the biggest plot point in the game, or the second biggest plot point, or the third.

About the only interesting thing about Piles of Excrement was roxors review and the amount of butthurt it caused among its die hard obsidian fans.

I just want to address combat, because I agree with everything else.

Combat always devolves into some repetitive tactic in every RPG, ever. It's not a problem specific to PoE. If you min/max & play as efficient as possible, it's only a matter of time before you end up with trite gameplay. Sure most other great RPGs are going to offer you more "choice" when it comes to combat, but that's usually a symptom of lack of familiarity with the game/system. In that regard PoE definitely fails as the whole game seems as if it has been thoroughly normalized, you've already talked about itemization and such. It should not be surprising that the only time you really have to change your playstyle is if you're either playing inefficient by personal decision OR because it's so extreme are soloing PotD.

tldr; no matter the RPG, combat always devolves into onedimensional gameplay. good games will require the player amassing more knowledge of the game's system before this comes into effect.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

. The Mass Effect series, Tomb Raider, Quantum Break, even the Dragon Age and Assassin's Creed

The things that you mentioned doesn't even have good world-building.

To answer your question, it depends on what kind of fag you are. As an RPG, for me, a game need to have passable mechanic and good world building. Aweigh would say a game with full good mechanic is the only determining factor. There are like dozen of this kind of thread already.

A better discusson perhaps is to define what RPG is.

 

[Lhynn]

Mass effect 1 did a fine job at world building men. Mass effect 2 and 3 did a fine job ruining it forever.

 

[SRPattison]

Mass effect 1 did a fine job at world building men. Mass effect 2 and 3 did a fine job ruining it forever.

I can 100% agree.