Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Wizardry Wizardry 8 great game ruined by level scaling and respawning

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Butcer, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. laclongquan Arcane

    laclongquan
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    Oh~ I dont care much for that demo, so I dont remember correctly. No Wiz9? Then it prolly be Wiz8 then. bad news for you guys, it is sooooo not very impressive attempt.

    I am not confused with MM series. I am impressed with MM8, tried MM7 and6, and definitely not 9 yet.
     
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  2. Doctor Sbaitso SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS. Patron

    Doctor Sbaitso
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    I don't disagree with hating the respawn frequency and scaling (to a lesser extent), but you learn to adapt, avoid and appreciate the peril.

    I also think that things aren't so frustrating if you adjust your approach. I don't binge on it, so I am not concerned with spending 3 of the next 5 hours battling. Sometimes I know my next session will be a lot of combat so I prepare for that and enjoy it.

    Get comfortable. Grab your favourite drink. Settle in for some of the best TB combat you will ever experience, with more charm than 10 imitations combined.

    Wiz8 is a fucking masterpiece with a convenience gripe being the pause between rounds.
     
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  3. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    :hmmm:
     
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  4. MasterSmithFandango Arcane

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    I do kind of agree with the OP. I think it would be up there with JA2 as BEST GAEM EVAR if the level scaling and respawns were toned down. Still, god I fucking love that game.
     
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  5. Make America Great Again Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

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    LERN 2 PLAY MOD FAG.
     
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  6. jagged-jimmy Prophet

    jagged-jimmy
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    Ok. i hit the Arnika road and it's not that bad. One question though: should i fucking level or not? Should i hold back levels before entering a new area?
     
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  7. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    A lot of people will tell you to not go above lvl 5 (or was it 4?) before hitting AR for the first time under any circumstances because *insert a lot of scary handwaving here*.

    I tell you that those people are faggots you can safely ignore and just play the fucking game.
     
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  8. Make America Great Again Renegen Arcane

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    Wizardry 8 is for combat fags, the fact that you can return to old areas (and you will) and encounter new enemies to fight instead of barren low-texture landscapes makes the game better. The game is pretty small really, the respawning trash mobs padden up the gameplay but fortunately they are some of the best trash mobs ever, precisely because they are level scaled.

    The only time you don't want to be overleveled is actually inside the temple, if you do then you'll meet diseased rats and it's fucking game over against them.
     
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  9. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    The AR does get a bit harder at around lvl5, but it's still perfectly doable, OTOH it's awfully hard to not hit lvl 5 before exiting monastery.

    I think the main thing about LS in Wizardry 8 is that it simply isn't large and open enough to be truly ruined by it.
     
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  10. Invictus Arcane The Real Fanboy

    Invictus
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    The hell you are saying DraQ? If you hit level 5 in the monsastery you spawn diseased rats and you don't have the cure disease spell or any potions by that time. I say that yeah there is almost no "I will only use melee" encounters in Wiz 8 where you can just set it to continuous and chillax; almost any encounter can turn deadly if you are not paying attention.
    I used to have some gripes with the game too but after a few levels your skills and spells are the difference and the difficulty curve almost goes away in the endgame.
    I wouldn't mind less respawns or feeling like a badass by slaughtering low level mobs but the game caps the scaling at a certain level so its is ok.
    Yeah it is kind of grindy but it is what the old school is all about; the game is not that big on exploration anyway so without the respawns it would be even shorter
     
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  11. Make America Great Again Darth Roxor Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis, Hater of Eternity

    Darth Roxor
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    Behead those who insult Wizardry 8.

    Also, enemy respawns? Big fucking deal, every other game calls it random encounters and gets away with it. Be thankful they are visible on the map and can be avoided (unlike in previous Wizardries), you gigantic crybabies.

    Also2,

    This x1000. Arnika Road is overrated as SHIT and absolutely manageable, but you gotta pick your fights and use resources sparingly (aka avoid plant mobs, engage on good terrain and don't go full retardo with spells on the first mob you encounter). But then again, I guess Caius Cosades is also p. difficult to find :smug:
     
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  12. Make America Great Again cvv Arcane Patron

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    Exactly this.
    Oh well, no Bradley, no perfection.
     
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  13. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    Well, the way the game is built you will only be getting lvl 5 around the time you're about to exit the monastery assuming you do explore thoroughly, make some trips to Burz to sell loot, buy stuff and maybe ask him about topic or two, but don't run around specifically for the purpose of XP farming.

    This means you're not that likely to run into diseased rats (and you'll probably have enough problems with rabid rats anyway).
    If you do, you're not guaranteed to be forced to fight, if you fight, you're not guaranteed to be diseased.

    TBH, I don't know how disease exactly works in Wiz8 (was scared into paranoid preparation and avoidance by manual), but if you do get diseased you can either attempt to get to Arnika ASAP, or just do lulzy Wiz8 cure disease trick by letting the diseased character be killed and then resurrecting them - apparently in Wiz8 death carries less permanent health risk than disease.
    :troll:
    I generally like respawn mechanics in general, it's just that Wiz8 could have used a bit less respawning.
     
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  14. belowmecoldhands Learned

    belowmecoldhands
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    Keep note I have not played Wizardry 8, but I have played Morrowind and it does have overland respawning and level scaling, I believe. I didn't like the level scaling because I felt like I wasn't given the chance to "farm" experience on easier things to up my chances of success in tougher places. At any rate, respawning is a means to keep old areas valuable and/or relevant, but the problem is, almost universally amongst rpg's, respawning doesn't often change the character of a place or the available quests. So while you might get some experience going to an old area by killing respawned and scaled creatures and maybe get some satisfaction from that, you still see the same textures and people and so on. If all you're doing is just checking something mundane in a place you've been before, it might be annoying to have to cut your way through a crowd of hostile targets everytime only to be greeted by the same old place. You might wonder why you had to cut your way through all that just to grab a short quest from one of the villagers.

    Something I've seen mentioned once or twice in this thread is you gain new abilities as you level and this perhaps enables you some ability to avoid or slip past the respawned creatures. Someone also mentioned there's a cap to the level scaling.

    I think some level scaling and some respawning can be good things, but it's how a game employs them. I also think different games will go in different directions, so players need to find out what they like and try to find the right kind of game for their proclivities.

    Thanks for reading. Hope I didn't bore anyone or step on any sore toes.
     
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  15. Doctor Sbaitso SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS. Patron

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    The game provides spells, potions, tactics to avoid combat and a mod or two help with respawn rate.

    A lot of people seem to overlook running by hold shift so you can move really quickly (away) from approaching baddies.
     
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  16. Make America Great Again Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

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    This probably has to do with the modern gamer mentality of "I'm suppose to be invincible and never run!"

    Heroes should be able to lay waste to swarms upon swarms of enemies without ever breaking a sweat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
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  17. Eyeball Arcane

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    What I don't understand about these Wiz8 threads: some people advocate not using gadgeteers or bards. Mine are ALWAYS my most valuable team members, far outclassing the spellpoint based casters WHO need to rest between every single hard battle. Just stand around for a minute or press the camp key for 1 second, bam, full endurance Again and more casting from bardgeteers.

    They DO require a bit of metaknowledge though, mainly in how to assemble the gadgets.

    What I don't LIKE about WIz8: chameleon spell sucks lizard balls and is about as useful at hiding you as draping a pink tarpaulin over an elephant.
     
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  18. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    belowmecoldhands - first post, eh?
    Run while you still can.


    They are very different games, and I'm saying it as fan of both.
    Wizardry is also first person, but it's party based and has turn-based combat, which is pretty much its main focus. Morrowind, OTOH, bigger and much more open, is focused around exploration and lore.
    In Wizardry 8 going around and visiting places is generally means to an end, in Morrowind it's an end unto itself.
    Both have use-based character development (though in Wiz8 it's auxiliary to standard XP system), and keyword-based dialogue (although Wiz8 allows you to also enter keywords manually).

    Morrowind has little level scaling - stronger random creatures start appearing in some areas, so does better random loot, but it's pretty subtle. Wizardry 8 is less subtle about that, but OTOH it's smaller and you won't be backtracking nearly as much.

    Actually I consider farming skills all the way up on weak challenges crappy design. You shouldn't be able to become master swordsman if all you've ever did was bonking barely mobile mudcrabs with your sword, no?

    Actually, respawning is way to keep player busy as they backtrack, make the world feel more alive by not allowing just clearing it all out, and may force some extra supply management for just traveling around.
    What you will see next time depends on how the leveled lists are constructed.

    Actually I think level scaling sucks pretty much unconditionally.
    A case can be made for enemies sent specifically after the player, or tying some enemies to passage of time in narrative, but using player level instead of actual time elapsed. A weaker case can be made for big bosses if there is risk player may outlevel them (but it should be used sparingly or you might end up having local bandit boss outleveling some destroyer of worlds), and it's a band-aid for crappy mechanics.

    Other than that level scaling simply breaks the gameworld by making it revolve around the player and eliminates both risk assessment and feeling of progression from gameplay.
    Thankfully it doesn't impact Wizardry 8 all that much despite sucking.
     
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  19. Make America Great Again Clockwork Knight Arcane

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    That, or "This game is hard, I probably need the XP so running away will come back to bite me in the ass later".
     
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  20. Make America Great Again Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

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    The type of person you mention would probably rage quit Wizardry 8 before finishing it. They would be constantly frustrated by not being able to out-level content. (They would quit well before finally grinding out to max level)

    "WHY CAN'T I BECOME TEH UBERZ HERO AND SLAY EVERYTHING!!! THIS GAME SUCKS!!1!"

    *Uninstall Game*
     
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  21. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Wizardry 8 ironman mode is a good cure for derpy mentality.
     
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  22. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

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    yeah man, being smart about managing a resource (XP) that you will probably need for later (notice how many stress the importance of grind in Wiz8?) is COMPLETELY the same as someone being very angry that they don't have an awesome-button

    stay classy, Codex
     
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  23. Make America Great Again Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

    Ranselknulf
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    I'd say being smart would be running from battles you can't win and fighting those you can. Not Being "TEH UBER GRUNKER HERO!!!"

    "Look an enemy. I shall never run. No matter how many trash mobs are in this game to get exp on I can't run from this battle here!"
     
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  24. Grunker RPG Codex Ghost Patron

    Grunker
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    Stop it with this retarded strawman.

    My problem with trash mobs weren't difficulty. Unlike others, I didn't have many problems with Arnika because I got out fast. That doesn't mean your insinuation that not skipping combat and wanting an awesome button has any fucking thing to do with each other.

    I doubt anybody who actually cared enough to complete or almost complete Wizardry 8 is part of the group you seem to be attacking, but then what am I even doing here. If you can't understand that people who play Wizardry 8 probably aren't modern console-kiddies or whatever strawman you have built up, you won't be convinced of anything.
     
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  25. Make America Great Again Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

    Ranselknulf
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    I'll try to flesh out this thought for you because you don't seem to be actually making a point besides disagreeing with me and flailing your arms around wildly.

    Not a very compelling argument but anyways.


    I'd call it more of a false dichotomy I was making but whatev's

    I guess a third option instead of being the uber hero or running would be nerfing the enemies so they are easier. Not really sure what point you are making besides trying to rationalize how weak you are at CRPG's
     
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