Will PoE be shit?

[Volrath]

Guns and energy weapons and melee and unarmed aren't different enough to justify separate skills. He said if he ever makes another Fallout game he'll merge them.

I see people bawwing over this, but I think it's great. You're not going to spend points on guns and energy weapons, and it sucks to find something really nice that's useless to you because you don't have the skill for it. Especially since they both are held the same way and used the same way, and the only difference is the type of projectile they fire. As for melee and unarmed weapons - fuck it, no one used them anyway. Might as well merge them so they don't take up as much space.

Also: PoE will be GUD

Why not just go even further and make the following skills:

GUNZ™
EXPLOSIONZ™
KUNG FU™
TALKING FAGGOT™

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I see people bawwing over this, but I think it's great. You're not going to spend points on guns and energy weapons, and it sucks to find something really nice that's useless to you because you don't have the skill for it.

C&C man, it doesn't have to be story related.

Especially since they both are held the same way and used the same way, and the only difference is the type of projectile they fire.

That's the real issue here, they should handle differently with well defined strengths and weaknesses, waranting different playthroughs to try each one.

As for melee and unarmed weapons - fuck it, no one used them anyway. Might as well merge them so they don't take up as much space.

If you never did an unarmed ninja playthrough of Fallout 1 & 2,you don't know what you're missing, it's all kinds of awesome.

Also: PoE will be GUD

Sure and I expect the sequel will be even better. That said, it will likely be good in spite of Sawyer for most people (not counting his cultists here that go ga-ga at every shit he comes up with).

 

[Shannow]

Anal Lysis Time. So I was bored and did some analysing:

Codex Critical Consensus Project

As of a few minutes ago there were 257 votes.
Of these 230 were interested in giving a vote on PoE. (The rest want me to kill myself )
Of these 212 can be considered a target group for PoE. The rest hate RTwP (understandably). But that really means they're not the target group for an IE successor game. This also shows a severe decline of the codex. When I joined here I got flamed for liking IE despite their RTwP abomination. I might have excluded you from the analysis but keep on fighting the good fight, brothers.

So I normalized the percentages on the target group.
"Mods will fix it" might be missing, but really, I was interested in people's expectations of the game. "Mods will fix it" wouldn't cover that. (EG. NWN OC is hated eventhough several mods can make NWN an enjoyable experience.)
Since currently only one voted "other" it seems like the questions covered most opinions well enough to be acceptable.

So, Infinitron stipulated that the consensus here was that OE - or more to the point - PoE is hated.
Check the spoiler to find out if he's right:

Spoiler

As you can see I put the answers on a grade. And while some might feel like their votes are misrepresented, these should be exceptions. Also: learn to read. Also: Welcome to democracy.

Overall the consensus is very positive towards PoE (Infinitron ). With 61% of the votes expecting at least a (halfway) good game, or still having hope for one.
Where the codex shines once again as the last bastion of critical thought in a sea of mediocrity and Yes men is on the topics of IE successor and Sawyer (together 27.4%). Roguey, Sawyer and Infinitron have themselves to thank for this. (And I'm sure Roguey is proud of it.)

Now clearly Sawyer isn't making PoE for the codex, but we did hype the shit out of it and donated a whole bunch of bucks.
So when 39% of us do not like the directions this is going and 22.6% explicitly state that this is due to Sawyer's design, this should perhaps give some thought for critical reflection. (Although, I grant that Roguey and OE apologists did their part to radicalize what otherwise might have stayed constructive criticism.)

So once again there is a schism in the Hivemind. No consensus whatsoever. Hooray for continuity.
Sadly it also shows the decline of the codex. In an inclined codex all the votes for Great and Good would have been distributed among the other options. But that's just my personal opinion. /CCCP

 

[Infinitron]

So, Infinitron stipulated that the consensus here was that OE - or more to the point - PoE is hated.

Clarification: When I use the term "Codex Consensus" it's usually in a mocking/sarcastic fashion.

 

[mastroego]

What I think is happening is that Sawyer simply reasons as a developer.
If he merges everything into one "skill" the team will have less stuff to code and to debug.
Pretty straightforward and reasonable from that PoV.
(I mean, the alternative is believing that he actually believes that merging energy guns and unarmed combat is sound design. If that were the case, we would be talking about a deranged person).

Problem is, he tries to sell it as "improved" design (this being the point where he steps squarely on the "wrong" side), and even worse, some indeed fall for it.

 

[Roguey]

Lets just merge all weapon skills into "weapon skills". This will be a much more definite solution to those problems you mentioned earlier. Also merge all other skills into "misc skills", so you are never frustrated for not having the adequate skill maxed.
It really adds to the experience when you can see and experience everything in a game in one go, i fucking hate whenever some content is locked just because i didnt spend my points the way the game wanted me to. Shit, there should be a mandatory auto level feature. Also fuck those faggots that think that it would be better to make different weapons, armors and skills play in (sometimes very) different ways, better to make the differences cosmetic at best, then come to the natural conclusion that because they play exactly the same its really not worth keeping 2 separate skills.

....

They don't play "exactly" the same, but the differences aren't enough. There's really no way you can get "get up close to someone and hit them" and "shoot someone with a projectile" to play more differently than they already do. Presentation is meaningless when no functionality is lost.

Multiple skills that all do the same thing is Wasteland 2 garbage. Three or four different ways to open containers, so deep.

 

[mastroego]

Multiple skills that all do the same thing is Wasteland 2 garbage. Three or four different ways to open containers, so deep.

You're not modeling the problem right.
In a PROPERLY designed rpg you'd have Strenght augmenting physical damage AND allowing to open locks through brute force.
Meanwhile, for instance, Magic Skill would allow to cast spells AND magically open locks.
The fact that they overlap in functionality where it makes SENSE doesn't mean they have to overlap everywhere.

Sawyer is just trying to save code by selling bullshit.

 

[Roguey]

You're considering things separately.
In a PROPERLY designed rpg you'd have Strenght augmenting physical damage AND allowing to open locks through brute force.
Also Magic Skill would allow to cast spells AND magically open locks.
The fact that they overlap in functionality where it makes SENSE doesn't mean they have to overlap everywhere.

Sawyer is just trying to save code by selling bullshit.

If there's a class that's great/good at combat and can also open containers and a class that's bad at combat and can only open containers, or a "be better at combat and open containers" attribute and a "just open containers" skill there's no reason to take the latter aside from self-imposed challenge, and J-Saw isn't interested in catering to that.

Case in point: Divinity: Original Sin. Lockpicking is worthless and putting points into it unnecessarily hurts your combat effectiveness, just blow things up or bash away.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

hahaha does he really want to merge energy weapons and unarmed combat into a "good at fighting" skill, Jesus

 

[InspectorRumpole]

I think it will be "ok", albeit being somewhat bland and generic.

 

[GarfunkeL]

He wants to merge small guns and energy weapons. He also wants to merge unarmed and melee. Which kinda makes sense if you're a retard.

@Nightgoat I took both Small Guns and Energy Weapons. Natural progression.

 

[Coyote]

I've ignored most of the news about PoE since pledging because I figure that I'm getting the game now regardless of what I read about it in the meantime. I never preorder games, but that's basically what happened with the Kickstarter games I supported, and I thought it'd be nice to play them without much in the way of preconceptions/expectations on the off-chance that they turn out to be good.

So I voted "Too early to judge. But I still have hope." Though "it'll probably be shit though" is also true from a purely statistical perspective.

Thank you for reading my uninformed opinion.

 

[Black_Willow]

You're considering things separately.
In a PROPERLY designed rpg you'd have Strenght augmenting physical damage AND allowing to open locks through brute force.
Also Magic Skill would allow to cast spells AND magically open locks.
The fact that they overlap in functionality where it makes SENSE doesn't mean they have to overlap everywhere.

Sawyer is just trying to save code by selling bullshit.

If there's a class that's great/good at combat and can also open containers and a class that's bad at combat and can only open containers, or a "be better at combat and open containers" attribute and a "just open containers" skill there's no reason to take the latter aside from self-imposed challenge, and J-Saw isn't interested in catering to that.

And that's why we need attribute system and classes taken straight from an MMO game.
So sayeth Sawyer.

EDIT:

Merging skills? That always made sequels better!

 

[Volrath]

Sawyer would fit in perfectly at Bethesda.

 

[nihil]

Sound the alarm, someone said squares>hexes

They're geometrically superior.
Here's effect of 24 hours mathematical evaluation process and 48 hours of hard work in paint.

Spoiler

Your example includes the diagonals of the squares. Include the diagonals of the hexes and you get 12 directions.

Hexes have much cooler properties than squares. A discrete movement unit that better matches physical distance, for example.

 

[Ninjerk]

Should use circles for INFINITE DIRECTIONS

 

[nihil]

I kind of prefer the abstraction of discrete movement units, as hunting decimals (like in D:OS) feels fuzzy, but either works.

 

[Lhynn]

Lets just merge all weapon skills into "weapon skills". This will be a much more definite solution to those problems you mentioned earlier. Also merge all other skills into "misc skills", so you are never frustrated for not having the adequate skill maxed.
It really adds to the experience when you can see and experience everything in a game in one go, i fucking hate whenever some content is locked just because i didnt spend my points the way the game wanted me to. Shit, there should be a mandatory auto level feature. Also fuck those faggots that think that it would be better to make different weapons, armors and skills play in (sometimes very) different ways, better to make the differences cosmetic at best, then come to the natural conclusion that because they play exactly the same its really not worth keeping 2 separate skills.

....

They don't play "exactly" the same, but the differences aren't enough. There's really no way you can get "get up close to someone and hit them" and "shoot someone with a projectile" to play more differently than they already do. Presentation is meaningless when no functionality is lost.

Multiple skills that all do the same thing is Wasteland 2 garbage. Three or four different ways to open containers, so deep.

B U L L S H I T

Give each weapon a different function, add depth to the game. Unarmed could be a action free to swich to and swich from, that alone would make it extremely valuable, give it status effects to compensate for its lack of damage.

Melee weapons on the other hand should have higher damage and even grant defense but offer a lot less control (you could even further divide melee into heavy, light and throw). Then youd have a strategical choice between ones and the others.

Energy weapons could be further divided into laser and plasma and tesla (?), laser being an auto hit detection weapon with high rate of fire but low damage (which it was), plasma being a slower proyectile with a penalty to hit but devastating damage, etc.

Then youd have pistols, revolvers, shotguns, smgs, assault rifles, heavy rifles, RPGs, flamethrowers, each into its own category, the difference between them really are obvious, starting from how you fucking hold them. Then you add a form of diminishing returns to encourage the player to pick up more than one weapon, or make it team based in which case making your own A team is cool as fuck.

Divide exp into combat related and non combat related, because every character in the world has a non-combat related skill, this would encourage making actual characters (something weapon/non weapon proficiency from AD&D despite being a shitty system never got enough credit from doing)

My god i want to play that game.... But yeah, if you are incompetent, lazy or mismanaging your money you should merge skills, there are no other excuses to make the quality of your rpg go down.

 

[eremita]

Lets just merge all weapon skills into "weapon skills". This will be a much more definite solution to those problems you mentioned earlier. Also merge all other skills into "misc skills", so you are never frustrated for not having the adequate skill maxed.
It really adds to the experience when you can see and experience everything in a game in one go, i fucking hate whenever some content is locked just because i didnt spend my points the way the game wanted me to. Shit, there should be a mandatory auto level feature. Also fuck those faggots that think that it would be better to make different weapons, armors and skills play in (sometimes very) different ways, better to make the differences cosmetic at best, then come to the natural conclusion that because they play exactly the same its really not worth keeping 2 separate skills.

....

They don't play "exactly" the same, but the differences aren't enough. There's really no way you can get "get up close to someone and hit them" and "shoot someone with a projectile" to play more differently than they already do. Presentation is meaningless when no functionality is lost.

Multiple skills that all do the same thing is Wasteland 2 garbage. Three or four different ways to open containers, so deep.

B U L L S H I T

Give each weapon a different function, add depth to the game. Unarmed could be a action free to swich to and swich from, that alone would make it extremely valuable, give it status effects to compensate for its lack of damage.

Melee weapons on the other hand should have higher damage and even grant defense but offer a lot less control (you could even further divide melee into heavy, light and throw). Then youd have a strategical choice between ones and the others.

Energy weapons could be further divided into laser and plasma and tesla (?), laser being an auto hit detection weapon with high rate of fire but low damage (which it was), plasma being a slower proyectile with a penalty to hit but devastating damage, etc.

Then youd have pistols, revolvers, shotguns, smgs, assault rifles, heavy rifles, RPGs, flamethrowers, each into its own category, the difference between them really are obvious, starting from how you fucking hold them. Then you add a form of diminishing returns to encourage the player to pick up more than one weapon, or make it team based in which case making your own A team is cool as fuck.

Divide exp into combat related and non combat related, because every character in the world has a non-combat related skill, this would encourage making actual characters (something weapon/non weapon proficiency from AD&D despite being a shitty system never got enough credit from doing)

My god i want to play that game.... But yeah, if you are incompetent, lazy or mismanaging your money you should merge skills, there are no other excuses to make the quality of your rpg go down.

Now why would you say something like that?!

 

[Lhynn]

Now why would you say something like that?!

Oh, make no mistake, its a shit system, but it did a decent job at making characters with a bit more depth. That barbarian knew how to dance, there was a story behind that and it also gave him something to do at that royal party the group had to investigate, it also impressed a lot of people. The fighter knew how to cook, his parents have an inn and he used to work there. Im sure you can come up with some examples yourself, point isnt that it was pretty, point is that it was functional and that it worked.
3.5 Skill points, i didnt really like, DCs had a tendency to get higher as the team leveled up so the players felt forced to keep investing on them (thus you rarely got to know "more stuff" you only got to know "the same stuff better"), plus some degrees of mastery you could achieve were frankly silly.

 

[cherry blossom]

Been playing the Beta. The combat is an unorganised fucking mess. I swear DAO plays better than this shit. To talk down so much crap about game design and then to come out with this bullshit; Sawyer's head is far too stuck up his ass.

And the scenes should have looked far better. Instead, they are littered with rendering or compression artifacts and look weird. To be able play again a beautiful 2D game is immensely pleasing, though.

Also, the fucking Na'vi in my RPG? Goddammit, Josh.

 

[Johannes]

Lets just merge all weapon skills into "weapon skills". This will be a much more definite solution to those problems you mentioned earlier. Also merge all other skills into "misc skills", so you are never frustrated for not having the adequate skill maxed.
It really adds to the experience when you can see and experience everything in a game in one go, i fucking hate whenever some content is locked just because i didnt spend my points the way the game wanted me to. Shit, there should be a mandatory auto level feature. Also fuck those faggots that think that it would be better to make different weapons, armors and skills play in (sometimes very) different ways, better to make the differences cosmetic at best, then come to the natural conclusion that because they play exactly the same its really not worth keeping 2 separate skills.

....

They don't play "exactly" the same, but the differences aren't enough. There's really no way you can get "get up close to someone and hit them" and "shoot someone with a projectile" to play more differently than they already do. Presentation is meaningless when no functionality is lost.

Multiple skills that all do the same thing is Wasteland 2 garbage. Three or four different ways to open containers, so deep.

B U L L S H I T

Give each weapon a different function, add depth to the game. Unarmed could be a action free to swich to and swich from, that alone would make it extremely valuable, give it status effects to compensate for its lack of damage.

Melee weapons on the other hand should have higher damage and even grant defense but offer a lot less control (you could even further divide melee into heavy, light and throw). Then youd have a strategical choice between ones and the others.

Energy weapons could be further divided into laser and plasma and tesla (?), laser being an auto hit detection weapon with high rate of fire but low damage (which it was), plasma being a slower proyectile with a penalty to hit but devastating damage, etc.

Then youd have pistols, revolvers, shotguns, smgs, assault rifles, heavy rifles, RPGs, flamethrowers, each into its own category, the difference between them really are obvious, starting from how you fucking hold them. Then you add a form of diminishing returns to encourage the player to pick up more than one weapon, or make it team based in which case making your own A team is cool as fuck.

Divide exp into combat related and non combat related, because every character in the world has a non-combat related skill, this would encourage making actual characters (something weapon/non weapon proficiency from AD&D despite being a shitty system never got enough credit from doing)

My god i want to play that game.... But yeah, if you are incompetent, lazy or mismanaging your money you should merge skills, there are no other excuses to make the quality of your rpg go down.

Mmmm meh. The best way to go about it is to have a more diverse set of skills affect your combat efficiency than just the skill with a particular weapon.

Weapons should be properly differentiated from each other in function, but that still doesn't necessarily mean it's better if you force the player to choose one (or several) types they can competently use. You can still hold only one weapon at a time, and it's more interesting if you've got more CHOICE in what weapon you can wield for a given fight. Rather than being encouraged to fight each fight with same weapons and similar approach.

If you've got several combat-influencing skills, that actually do varied things and not just up your accuracy - but a diverse set of skills that actually change how you fight even with a set weapon. Marksmanship (useful for all guns), sneaking/taking cover, running, dodging, initiative, melee, throwing, morale, appraising [of enemy stats], etc etc...
A system where a certain character is still encouraged to pick a weapon type that best compliments his skillset, but not outright make all his spent skillpoints useless if he picks a weapon of another kind.


Or do you guys think JA2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Marksmanship skill?

 

[Starwars]

The game is gonna be good. And it's gonna make Obsidian some money.

But the future on the Codex will be that Sawyer will slowly turn into a mocked figure, Sensuki will complain that his proposed changes didn't make it in the game and thus will create a mod that will become popular (nay, ESSENTIAL) to the hivemind. Talks of BALANCE LULZ! will continue and become a tired old Codex joke. There will be endless complaining about "oh, if only this game could be turnbased, RTwP sux" and how the game doesn't come close to the incredible legacy of such amazing games as the IE games. Codex will turn its eyes to Tides of Numenera as the one true hope for 2d isometric RPGs instead. Brian Fargo secretly rubs his hands together while horns grow out of his head.
Volourn will continue claims that NWN is the best game ever.

Wait, this is all already happening, goddamnit.

 

[Nikaido]

Or do you guys think JA2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Marksmanship skill?

I think JA2 is not a RPG and character progression/building isn't the main focus of the game. It has RPG-ish elements, but they're not the focus of the game. What works for JA2's skill system is not necessarily what I want to see in a RPG.

 

[Untermensch]

Or do you guys think JA2 would be a better game if it hadn't consolidated all weapons under the Marksmanship skill?

I think JA2 is not a RPG and character progression/building isn't the main focus of the game. It has RPG-ish elements, but they're not the focus of the game. What works for JA2's skill system is not necessarily what I want to see in a RPG.

The question still stands.