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Will PoE be shit?

Will PoE be shit?


  • Total voters
    451

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
"It could have been good, but J.E. Sawyer happened."

The fact that this option is winning is all thanks to Roguey

I wonder if the kickstarter would have been as popular on the Codex had we known from the beginning that Sawyer was going to be the project leader?

We more or less did.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...akes-over-nwn2-development.11796/#post-213553

Though personally I always considered Sawyer a pretty cool guy, still do. I just disagree with the majority of his design decisions. Something I wasn't aware of before PoE went into production.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
^ That.
I knew i found New Vegas kind of bland, but i didn't realy blamed Sawyer for that. But i disagree with about half of his design decisions. I still think he is a good/great designer, i just don't like him as Project Lead, deciding the overal design direction.
I would be more happy with Avellone,Cain,Festenmaker as leads, and Sawyer made to implement their ideas and/or salvage the mess of a gameplay they would produce.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
Avellone and Fenstermaker are purely creative.

turn based games tend to allow for more interesting gameplay than your classic button masher or pause spamming system
Not in my experience.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
They should never have let go of Ziets.
Nor Kevin Saunders. As Ziets is "creative" as Roguey says, Obsidian has other equaly good designers to fill his shoes. Good Project leads? Not so much. Sawyer, while he does a good job as project lead, the position gives him too much power over overal game direction, and as someone who disagrees with many of his opinions i don't like that.
I find the games he has made have a cetrain...blandness... coating the experience, from dialogue to writing to systems. They lack the more "out there", memorable touches other games have.
 
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DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
Basically what I'm trying to illustrate here are that real-time systems are more realistic.
Realism isn't something intrinsic good and can't be used in favor of a system. If the objective of your game is to be as realistic as possible, okay, realism is important but outside simulator games, all the other games have different levels of abstraction on them. You won't criticize a platformer because the character jumps unrealistic heights, every gamer knows (exception of autistic retards) that videogames work on their own bubble realities and different genres, different games, have different expectations about realism.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
Nor Kevin Saunders.
The spirit meter was executed poorly and his grognardy ideas for New Men Era Torment are terribad.

Oh yeah and his system revisions to kotor2 suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked.
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
The execution. George Ziets wrote this about it
My feelings on the spirit meter have changed over time.

One of the original incentives for the spirit meter was to “fix” the rest system in NWN2, which I hated. It drove me nuts that players could rest after almost every fight in NWN2, which completely removed the need to conserve resources (spells, powers, etc.). In games where you can’t rest whenever you want, you are forced to use your spells and abilities strategically – for me, that was always a significant part of the fun. But in NWN2, you could blow your biggest spells on practically every fight. The only “dangerous” battles were the ones that could potentially wipe out your party. So we wanted to design a system that introduced a genuine cost to resting.

The other incentive was to make the player’s curse meaningful. If players were just told that they were cursed, but they didn’t experience any actual in-game consequences of their affliction, we all agreed that the whole plot would feel a little silly.

The system that Eric Fenstermaker designed was meant to mimic an addiction. The more you used your powers, the more rapidly the curse would progress, and you would have to feed more and more frequently. Plus the player’s level of corruption would continue to increase during rest, which created an incentive to rest less frequently. I loved the concept, and at the time, I felt like it addressed both of our goals.

But here’s the problem. Many – possibly most – RPG players like to take their time exploring the world, talking to NPCs, discovering secret areas, and completing side quests. The spirit meter actively discourages this style of play, encouraging the player to stick to the main quest and resolve the curse as quickly as possible. So unless players found a way to “cheat” the curse (which many did), they were discouraged from exploring our side content and enjoying the game the way they wanted to enjoy it.

Years later, I had some discussions with Josh Sawyer about this, and I now find myself on the opposite side of the debate. I think a player’s sense of being “cursed” could be reinforced in other, less heavy-handed ways – for example, NPC reactions, scripted events, visual changes, and settlements that won’t admit the player (forcing you to find a more dangerous way inside and be “on edge” at the prospect of discovery whenever you are there). I think we could also have found less fatal ways to create the sense of a curse that is “draining” the player – for example, your abilities deteriorate if you don’t feed, but you don’t actually die, making the curse impactful but not a game-stopper. Or maybe even a “hard core” mode where the curse was fatal, and a “normal” mode where it wasn’t.

Ultimately, I want players to be able to enjoy the game without having to resort to cheats or exploits, and for many players, I feel like the spirit meter became an obstacle to enjoying our content.

I know I metagamed by exploiting that fast-traveling from Mulsantir gate to Mulsantir would act as if you had fully rested without draining any of your spirit, allowing you to eat/suppress farm those spirits at the gate each time.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
Oh another thing I remembered about your precious Saunders is that he doesn't want to make particularly-demanding games and this is reflected in both kotor2 and motb.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/47858-mask-of-the-betrayer/page-9#entry801497
Josh said:
Kevin and Avellone and Ferg were quick to prevent me from requesting IWD2-levels of difficulty because they have more sympathy for nubs than I do. And I should make it clear that I didn't tune the combat personally. I made suggestions that were considered by individual designers and either accepted, rejected, or modified based on their best judgment and the goals Kevin thought were appropriate. I think the game difficulty, as tuned by the designers, is interesting but not difficult for me. And by Adam's experience, some parts are very difficult for someone with his relatively-low familiarity with D&D. D&D is a complicated ruleset and there's a minimum level of understanding required to do anything with it -- especially at 20th+ level. The only real way to get around that is to selectively shave off so much of the complex D&D rules that you're left with something like BG: Dark Alliance or the old Capcom D&D games. If you try to keep all of the core rules but tune the difficulty so you don't really have to know anything, the D&D veterans simply aren't going to find the gameplay compelling at all.

For the record, I will also say that the Black Hound will not be tuned in this way. While I am changing a bunch of rules for the campaign, combat babies will have to leave their rattles and bonnets at the door.
 

TheGreatOne

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,214
turn based games tend to allow for more interesting gameplay than your classic button masher or pause spamming system
Not in my experience.
That's because Fallout and Arcanum are the only turn based games you've played and you dismiss all depth, complexity and challenge as grogshit that's getting in the way of your story immershun and fine tuned JES balance
 

eremita

Savant
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
797
The execution. George Ziets wrote this about it
My feelings on the spirit meter have changed over time.

One of the original incentives for the spirit meter was to “fix” the rest system in NWN2, which I hated. It drove me nuts that players could rest after almost every fight in NWN2, which completely removed the need to conserve resources (spells, powers, etc.). In games where you can’t rest whenever you want, you are forced to use your spells and abilities strategically – for me, that was always a significant part of the fun. But in NWN2, you could blow your biggest spells on practically every fight. The only “dangerous” battles were the ones that could potentially wipe out your party. So we wanted to design a system that introduced a genuine cost to resting.

The other incentive was to make the player’s curse meaningful. If players were just told that they were cursed, but they didn’t experience any actual in-game consequences of their affliction, we all agreed that the whole plot would feel a little silly.

The system that Eric Fenstermaker designed was meant to mimic an addiction. The more you used your powers, the more rapidly the curse would progress, and you would have to feed more and more frequently. Plus the player’s level of corruption would continue to increase during rest, which created an incentive to rest less frequently. I loved the concept, and at the time, I felt like it addressed both of our goals.

But here’s the problem. Many – possibly most – RPG players like to take their time exploring the world, talking to NPCs, discovering secret areas, and completing side quests. The spirit meter actively discourages this style of play, encouraging the player to stick to the main quest and resolve the curse as quickly as possible. So unless players found a way to “cheat” the curse (which many did), they were discouraged from exploring our side content and enjoying the game the way they wanted to enjoy it.

Years later, I had some discussions with Josh Sawyer about this, and I now find myself on the opposite side of the debate. I think a player’s sense of being “cursed” could be reinforced in other, less heavy-handed ways – for example, NPC reactions, scripted events, visual changes, and settlements that won’t admit the player (forcing you to find a more dangerous way inside and be “on edge” at the prospect of discovery whenever you are there). I think we could also have found less fatal ways to create the sense of a curse that is “draining” the player – for example, your abilities deteriorate if you don’t feed, but you don’t actually die, making the curse impactful but not a game-stopper. Or maybe even a “hard core” mode where the curse was fatal, and a “normal” mode where it wasn’t.

Ultimately, I want players to be able to enjoy the game without having to resort to cheats or exploits, and for many players, I feel like the spirit meter became an obstacle to enjoying our content.

I know I metagamed by exploiting that fast-traveling from Mulsantir gate to Mulsantir would act as if you had fully rested without draining any of your spirit, allowing you to eat/suppress farm those spirits at the gate each time.
Yep, that was my routine too. Spirit meter was never well thought out and the implementation was even worse.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
Don't know, for me the spirit meter presents one of the finest examples of story and gameplay integration (don't know if it's the right word). NPC reactions, scripted events and visual changes are cosmetic as far as I'm concerned (but nice touches nonetheless, I'm certainly not against them), if I'm the bearer of the powerful curse it should affect gameplay, great benefits for great costs (that is what "dark side" should be about, not about being a murdering psychopath for the lulz).

I also liked time limit in Fallout for same reasons, though I'd prefer if for example I had the choice to not give a fuck about the Vault from the get go and had the option to try to wrestle away the leadership of the mutant army from the Master.
 

crawlkill

Kill all boxed game owners. Kill! Kill!
Joined
May 9, 2012
Messages
674
From a narrative standpoint (Including reactivity and all that stuff) it will be great.

What else matters? Are there actually people who enjoy IE gameplay? It can be viscerally satisfying when you're ripping things apart, sure, but it was always ultimately samey and tedious in the mega-extreme. I've played through those games enough times to be semi-inured to the pain of numb, repetitive RTwP RPG combat. If the "gameplay" is no more intrusive than it was in Baldur's Gate or, fuck help us, Torment, that's more than enough for me. Memorable dialogue and reactivity, that's all I'm looking for. If some kind of interesting tactical combat experience comes along with it, well, it'll be a surprise and a bonus. And a first.

I consider the gameplay in most RPGs to be the conversations. Everything else usually gets real repetitive real quick. It's the upside to action RPGs, that at least they engage the twitch centers of your brain indefinitely.

story and gameplay integration (don't know if it's the right word)

ludonarrative...harmony? TVTropes usually just says "a subversion of gameplay/story segregation," I think.

I believe the word you're looking for is ludonarrative harmony. :troll:

Athelas got there first.
 
Last edited:

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
Don't know, for me the spirit meter presents one of the finest examples of story and gameplay integration (don't know if it's the right word). NPC reactions, scripted events and visual changes are cosmetic as far as I'm concerned (but nice touches nonetheless, I'm certainly not against them), if I'm the bearer of the powerful curse it should affect gameplay, great benefits for great costs (that is what "dark side" should be about, not about being a murdering psychopath for the lulz).
Well, Ziets' reasons mirror my own. Though I'd add non-sensical alignment shifts, especially for "surpress", and breaking of the rule-system (you weren't allowed to consume summoned shadows or elementals).
Ziets' later alternatives (after talking it over with Sawyer :roll: ) are completely popamole shit though.
An easy fix for his problem would have been a very slow deterioation during exploration, but significant meter losses for travelling from location to location and resting. Problem solved.
(And remove some of the meta-gamey work arounds.)
My additional problems could have been fixed by cutting alignment shifts out exept for dialogue. Summoning spells for consumable creatures could have failed (reason their fear of the main-char, whatever). This could even have been alleviated by some quest(chain) that gives such spells a chance to succeed. (Sure, save-scumming could have bypassed this, but so what.) Or not go with epic levels in the first place :M
 

Forest Dweller

Smoking Dicks
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
12,202
"It could have been good, but J.E. Sawyer happened."

The fact that this option is winning is all thanks to Roguey

I wonder if the kickstarter would have been as popular on the Codex had we known from the beginning that Sawyer was going to be the project leader?

We more or less did.


Hmm, I checked, it does say Project Director. Guess you were right. Funny how this turned out then.

In other words Codex gonna Codex.
 

mbpopolano24

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
183
What I don't understand is that if RTWP is a deal breaker for so many people why are they following news and participating in discussions/threads about PoE at all? Why give a shit?

Because it isn't (for some, me at least). RTwP is shit, a fact as clear as the gravity itself, but games can be wonderful despite it.... Planescape: Torment is a good example: it is one of the best games I have ever played even with RTwP . Baldur's Gate & C. are other examples. So I (we?) still hope PoE will be a good game, despite the shitty mechanics.

And, by the way, did I recently say how good Divinity: Original Sin is? Because it is very, very good.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"And Obsidian don't intend to ever produce a TB game."

South Park says hi. :)



D:OS is average. Not vert, very good. It's dumbed down shit. L0L RPS L0L


Ha at people claiming RTWP is shit then turn around and coming the most well know RTWP games as 'some of the ebst games ever'. Ooooo Hilarty!


The Spirit Meter was good. It ahd flaws but it is better than all the Sawyershit in PE.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath

TheGreatOne

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,214
D:OS is average. Not vert, very good. It's dumbed down shit. L0L RPS L0L
The dumbing down isn't that much of a problem when the combat engine is good and you've got some solid encounters. Good character creation (or balance/RPG systems/what ever the fuck JES designs) wont help you if you haven't got good gameplay and good gameplay won't help you if you don't have any good encounters to go with it.
You can also disable the RPS shit, though the dialogue reactivity is nonetheless quite weak.
I consider the gameplay in most RPGs to be the conversations.
349fi1f.jpg

Everything else usually gets real repetitive real quick. It's the upside to action RPGs, that at least they engage the twitch centers of your brain indefinitely.
:kingcomrade:

Sounds about JES Roguey
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
That's because Fallout and Arcanum are the only turn based games you've played and you dismiss all depth, complexity and challenge as grogshit that's getting in the way of your story immershun and fine tuned JES balance

You sure do like to make things up.
 

TheGreatOne

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
1,214
You sure do like to refuse playing good games that weren't made by JES because doing so would burst your bubble. But you're still an expert tho cuz you read the .pdf manual online and you can reference 2 vaguely related tweets made by Sawyer 2 years ago
 

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