Why was BG2. . . subpar?

[Theldaran]

The only people to blame are those who think fantasy = medieval europe only

I don't follow... but I kinda agree.

The difference is that with TSR the game was expanding, without releasing new rulesets (though there were some tweaks, to be sure). Third Edition was a very successful model for the money makers, but it was merely a scam. It brought the game to new heights of popularity, but at the same time nurtured legions of munchkins and rules lawyers. It all died with WoW, allegedly.

If anything, Wizards are experts at planned obsolescence (look at MTG) so they're applying it to D&D. If you ask me, I think that the real path to sensible book releases is selling materials for your own game, such as settings (nothing new since Eberron), world building guides, books about encounter design and balance, and so on. These already exist by the hundreds, but they could use some quality put into them.

 

[Dreaad]

Yeah, the two RoWs in BG2 are minor things.. unlike in BG1.

Bah, BG1 fanbois! They dont surprise me anymore~

Btw, I've criticized various aspects of BG1 in my sig link (and in the post you quoted), so in no way am I a "fanboi".

Fangirl then?

Spoiler

I couldn't resist.

 

[kwanzabot]

Yeah, the two RoWs in BG2 are minor things.. unlike in BG1.

Bah, BG1 fanbois! They dont surprise me anymore~

Btw, I've criticized various aspects of BG1 in my sig link (and in the post you quoted), so in no way am I a "fanboi".

Fangirl then?

Spoiler

I couldn't resist.

lilura is a dude lol, one of those really weird retards pretending to be a girl online

 

[pippin]

I don't follow... but I kinda agree.

It's more of a theme thing. See how settings like Plaescape or Dark Sun aren't used anymore. Everything is Forgotten Realms, and even worse, the most boring parts of Forgotten Realms.

 

[Dreaad]

Yeah, the two RoWs in BG2 are minor things.. unlike in BG1.

Bah, BG1 fanbois! They dont surprise me anymore~

Btw, I've criticized various aspects of BG1 in my sig link (and in the post you quoted), so in no way am I a "fanboi".

Fangirl then?

Spoiler

I couldn't resist.

lilura is a dude lol, one of those really weird retards pretending to be a girl online

 

[Theldaran]

I don't follow... but I kinda agree.

It's more of a theme thing. See how settings like Plaescape or Dark Sun aren't used anymore. Everything is Forgotten Realms, and even worse, the most boring parts of Forgotten Realms.

Well since everything is reduced to one thing, you might as well go with the most generic (FR). As for Planescape, I'm grateful they don't soil it with shitty releases.

 

[Atlantico]

why u so mad lol

i like bg1 more aswell but how is bg2 designed for "autistic munchkins" lol

Lhynn is the autistic munchkin in question, if that wasn't clear. He welcomed me to this forum in this very thread with his butthurt nerdrage, and I thank him for it. It's only common courtesy to reply in kind.

BG2 is full of OP shit, swords of epic power and ridiculous effects, something which appeals to munchkins very much, then there are the autistic ones who think I'm attacking their special friend when I rightfully point out that BG2 was a mediocre powerfantasy romance simulator with a railroad of a plot and apart from the name, no unforced connection to BG.

In and of itself, if it had no connection with Baldur's Gate, it's ok. As Baldur's Gate *2* it pretty much is the definition of decline.

No, im reading trash from an idiot thats uncapable of making a decent argument.
If a newfag like you cant be bothered to try hard, then you are worse than what we regularly get.

You wouldn't know a decent argument if it spat in your face, newfag. If pathetic pests like yourself is what you regularly get on this forum, I wouldn't bother to post here, but fortunately this forums is generally populated by quite interesting and intelligent people.

Plenty of posters here have made excellent arguments of why BG2 blows. Just isn't our problem you're too dense to pick it up.

 

[oldmanpaco]

People who don't like BG2 are the same type of people who don't like dogs.

Just saying.

 

[CptMace]

why u so mad lol

i like bg1 more aswell but how is bg2 designed for "autistic munchkins" lol

Lhynn is the autistic munchkin in question, if that wasn't clear. He welcomed me to this forum in this very thread with his butthurt nerdrage, and I thank him for it. It's only common courtesy to reply in kind.

BG2 is full of OP shit, swords of epic power and ridiculous effects, something which appeals to munchkins very much, then there are the autistic ones who think I'm attacking their special friend when I rightfully point out that BG2 was a mediocre powerfantasy romance simulator with a railroad of a plot and apart from the name, no unforced connection to BG.

In and of itself, if it had no connection with Baldur's Gate, it's ok. As Baldur's Gate *2* it pretty much is the definition of decline.

No, im reading trash from an idiot thats uncapable of making a decent argument.
If a newfag like you cant be bothered to try hard, then you are worse than what we regularly get.

You wouldn't know a decent argument if it spat in your face, newfag. If pathetic pests like yourself is what you regularly get on this forum, I wouldn't bother to post here, but fortunately this forums is generally populated by quite interesting and intelligent people.

Plenty of posters here have made excellent arguments of why BG2 blows. Just isn't our problem you're too dense to pick it up.

 

[Lhynn]

You wouldn't know a decent argument if it spat in your face, newfag. If pathetic pests like yourself is what you regularly get on this forum, I wouldn't bother to post here, but fortunately this forums is generally populated by quite interesting and intelligent people.

Plenty of posters here have made excellent arguments of why BG2 blows. Just isn't our problem you're too dense to pick it up.

Show me their arguments, ill tear them down one by one. Tho i do admit BG2 has a lot of faults, none of them even so much as scratch it. Its a solid game that will give you tons of fun and replayability.

 

[Theldaran]

Is the trend nowadays to bash BG2?

 

[pippin]

Is the trend nowadays to bash BG2?

It's not a trend,it's a way of life.

 

[kwanzabot]

You wouldn't know a decent argument if it spat in your face, newfag. If pathetic pests like yourself is what you regularly get on this forum, I wouldn't bother to post here, but fortunately this forums is generally populated by quite interesting and intelligent people.

Plenty of posters here have made excellent arguments of why BG2 blows. Just isn't our problem you're too dense to pick it up.

tons of fun and replayability.

both subjective init, i know personally i beat bg2 only twice with like 5-6 years in between and i really had to force myself from underdark onward the second time

every time i've tried to replay irenifag's dungeon has given me skin cancer and i've quit

 

[Lhynn]

I guess it is, ive replayed the game like 6 times, different characters, different party configurations. Finished it every time and had a ton of fun.

 

[Theldaran]

I've started the game more times than I can count, but only finished a handful. Truth be told, it doesn't offer much in the way of C&C, but has huge content and different gameplay depending on your character and party. It's still one of the most replayable games I know, if you like what it has to offer.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Is the trend nowadays to bash BG2?

BG2 got me into RPGs and was the best thing I could imagine at that time (I was 15). Now that I'm on the Codex, I know it sucks of course, and I'm following this thread, warming up for bashing Siege of Dragonspear.

On a serious note, playing BGII again gives me an idea how my tastes have shifted with time, although I still find it fun.

 

[kwanzabot]

Is the trend nowadays to bash BG2?

BG2 got me into RPGs and was the best thing I could imagine at that time (I was 15). Now that I'm on the Codex, I know it sucks of course, and I'm following this thread, warming up for bashing Siege of Dragonspear.

On a serious note, playing BGII again gives me an idea how my tastes have shifted with time, although I still find it fun.

if you find it fun why would you think it sucks lol

 

[Mangoose]

Because RTwP is gay.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Is the trend nowadays to bash BG2?

BG2 got me into RPGs and was the best thing I could imagine at that time (I was 15). Now that I'm on the Codex, I know it sucks of course, and I'm following this thread, warming up for bashing Siege of Dragonspear.

On a serious note, playing BGII again gives me an idea how my tastes have shifted with time, although I still find it fun.

if you find it fun why would you think it sucks lol

I was being ironic.

 

[kwanzabot]

Is the trend nowadays to bash BG2?

BG2 got me into RPGs and was the best thing I could imagine at that time (I was 15). Now that I'm on the Codex, I know it sucks of course, and I'm following this thread, warming up for bashing Siege of Dragonspear.

On a serious note, playing BGII again gives me an idea how my tastes have shifted with time, although I still find it fun.

if you find it fun why would you think it sucks lol

I was being ironic.

you mean sarcastic?

 

[AwesomeButton]

Is the trend nowadays to bash BG2?

BG2 got me into RPGs and was the best thing I could imagine at that time (I was 15). Now that I'm on the Codex, I know it sucks of course, and I'm following this thread, warming up for bashing Siege of Dragonspear.

On a serious note, playing BGII again gives me an idea how my tastes have shifted with time, although I still find it fun.

if you find it fun why would you think it sucks lol

I was being ironic.

you mean sarcastic?

Whichever you prefer.

 

[Neanderthal]

Liked them dreams in BG2, once saw an analysis of them by some bloke who seemed to know Freud an were deconstructing em, quite interesting but i'm not sure that Bioware writers are as deep as what he were reading into situation.

Found it:

Okay the BG2 dreams, Imoen's got no idea what you're going on about when you talk to her about them, (as I remember, only just had the first one) so i'm left thinking that all the players and locales were of the protagonists own imagining. Candlekeep is an obvious setting, it's where the Bhaalspawn grew up and developed, which is very much a Freudian construct, so i'm going to use my rough grasp of Freud to interpret them.

There are three players in the dreams: Firstly Imoen who is confused and seemingly weakened, but is constantly referencing various outside stimula, such as: Candlekeep, Gorion, Elminster, Khalid, The Cowled Wizards etceetera. These all share the aspect of what society expects of the Protagonist, and yet they have all been taken away due to circumstances beyond our power. Imoen for me represents the SUPER EGO, but one that is doubtful and divided, the Bhaalspawn has lost too much structure in his life, and thus Imoen is weakened by unrelenting change.

Irenicus, a cold voice of reason, who raises logical arguments and encourages self knowledge. The protagonist is given a choice, of whether to accept the gifts bred in his blood and bone, or face the consequences for turning aside. Irenicus seems to wish you to sate the taint within, by the most expedient method. This to me is EGO, and it tells you the truth in every dream. It is obvious to see why the protagonist equates Irenicus with this role, he too is looking for a way to master the taint within for his own use.

The third actor is only seen once, but present in every dream. It is the Bhaalspawn essence, played by the suitably monolithic Sarevok, who accepted and embraced his infernal fathers gifts. There can be no role other than that of ID for this creature, it is the pure chaotic drive to murder and kill that consumes you, as it does all the Bhaalspawn. That devilish restlessness that defined the protagonists years at Candlekeep, and which is fondly remembered as carefree high spirits by many of your old acquaintances. The base instincts that must be satisfied now, and which Bhaal trusted would see all his children fall to his restless grave.

When the Bhaalspawn essence comes to devour you, it is to the heart of the dream that you flee. The inner sanctuary of Candlekeep, your childhood stronghold where you grew and developed. Here the ID pursues you and it is here in this stronghold of reason, from which EGO Irenicus gave all his lessons, that SUPER EGO Imoen can match him. Thus the super ego, all that we have learned from outside stimulae and the lessons of civilisation, contests with the id, the petulant desire to sate our childish needs. Balanced by the pure rationality and logic of ego, which seeks to resolve by the quickest expedient.

Thus the Bhaalspawn stops the essence of his father from consuming him, and when it is stripped from him he can live on through knowing, accepting and mastering himself, thus the Slayer form accessed. Don't know whether this is what Ray and Greg, who must know Freud at least better than me meant to suggest, but it's my interpretation.

 

[Lhynn]

Sounds about right. Tho i never thought of it in terms of freud, i did give those elements the same roles and the same reasons for them being in those dreams. Its not terribly deep, but it does try to get you to think and ive found that this has always been sort of what bioware does more often than not, even with the crapfest that was DA:I.

 

[Makabb]

Shadowns of Amn is 70 hours long + throne of bhaal 20 hours. That's 90 hours of story, that's one of the longest AND most enjoyable rpgs in history. There was never before and to this day there is no other rpg that combines accessibility, artwork, music, fun, playability, longevity such as BG2.

Whoever says that BG 2 and ToB is anything other than a masterpiece is a moran. The proof that it is a masterpiece is that we are still discussing it today and other companies are making enhanced editions of it.

 

[likaq]

Whoever says that ToB is anything other than a masterpiece is a moran

indeed.