Why was BG2. . . subpar?

[Prime Junta]

BG2 is the quintessential game that's better than the sum of its parts.

You can pick holes in any aspect of it 'til the cows come home, but when you put it all together you get dazzling cornucopia of delight that hasn't been equalled before or since.

That's why I think a true BG2 successor is never going to happen. If you copy things from it, you'll most likely just copy the deficiencies, while the strange alchemy that makes it all work can't be copied. It could potentially just appear in some other game, but you can't copy it.

 

[Lilura]

Sorry, but Fallout and Fallout 2 shit on BG2 from a lofty height.. and the notion that BG2 is the "quintessential game" that transcends to an unequaled mystical totality, is just laughable.

 

[NotAGolfer]

I don't know what aspect of Baldur's Gate could be really worth imitating.

Well, maybe the sheer scope of it combined with at least average or above average quality for all of its elements?
This game is huge, I was impressed by the size of the world,
the sprawling dialogue trees (even if most of it is not PS:T level but it's better then some here claim imo, esp. when you keep in mind how many NPCs there are),
the amount of details trying hard to keep you in the right mindset (writing, lore, background noises, art stuff like visual effects, music and so on)
and the care put into its design (even when it comes to things like the UI and the way it blends in and doesn't distract - similar to Fallout 1 and 2 btw only that there the inventory was crap)
back in the day and I still am even though I will probably never play it again. It's just too long and too familiar and too much focussed on combat.

Sure, the game gets boring after a while, gameplay tends to gravitate towards certain always repeating patterns for all classes, but that's true for most CRPGs I played so it's not a convincable argument why this one is worse.
They still implemented a ton of new abilities on levelup and new enemy types with different hard counters ensure that you have to constantly adapt to new challenges so the combat stays surprisingly engaging(TM) for such a long game. The phat lewt criticised itt has the same reason, keeping the levelup loop interesting, since thanks to that you have one more thing you can still improve for each party member.
And of course BG2 is a CRPG, only that it's concentrating on combat mostly (supported by an incredible amount of lore and background stories and very pretty art though). Nothing wrong with that, there are tons of games like this especially among CRPGs from the 80s and early 90s, and most of them put way less effort into cities/questhubs. I don't care for pure dungeon romps like this anymore though, looking for something different.

 

[Prime Junta]

Sorry, but Fallout and Fallout 2 shit on BG2 from a lofty height.. and the notion that BG2 is the "quintessential game" that transcends to an unequaled mystical totality, is just laughable.

That's not what I meant. I meant that BG2 is the quintessential example of a game that succeeds by being more than the sum of its parts, not that it is "the quintessential game" full stop. (It's not even my favourite game as a matter of fact.)

Fallout's greatness comes from an intentional design decision that can be, and has been, successfully reproduced in other games. BG2 is great despite itself. Almost any individual aspect of it is flawed or frankly mediocre, but it all adds up to something amazing, and something that hasn't been successfully reproduced before or since.

 

[Lilura]

Fallout's greatness comes from an intentional design decision that can be, and has been, successfully reproduced in other games.

To some extent, but only by the same devs (e.g, Troika's Arcanum)

BG2 is great despite itself. Almost any individual aspect of it is flawed or frankly mediocre, but it all adds up to something amazing, and something that hasn't been successfully reproduced before or since.

I disagree, and BioWare could have easily made another BG2 and thank god they didn't.

Earlier in the thread I posted pros and cons of BG and BG2 and it got several brofists but no one responded to a single point in it. BG2 has massive issues, and is overrated by many on the Codex whose balls evidently dropped at their time of playing it.

 

[Prime Junta]

Earlier in the thread I posted pros and cons of BG and BG2 and it got several brofists but no one responded to a single point in it. BG2 has massive issues, and is overrated by many on the Codex whose balls evidently dropped at their time of playing it.

I didn't respond to it because I agree with all those points. It's a nice, concise list of everything that's wrong with BG2. (I could add a few points actually -- my pet peeve is the fucked-up in-game time mechanic.)

However I still enjoy BG2 immensely. Why? Because despite all those problems, it manages to hang together as a coherent whole, there's a tremendous amount of stuff in it that lets you set your own objectives and play it in a tremendous variety of different ways, and the moment-to-moment gameplay is dynamic and fun. I've played it a quite a lot of times, and every time I discover something new.

Fallout etc.'s replayability comes from the different ways quests can play out. BG2's replayability comes from the way the challenges feel different depending on the order in which you take them and the party you're playing. That can only happen because of the sheer amount of stuff that's in it.

 

[DavidBVal]

RTwP can work, or even be desirable, for filler combat.

 

[hell bovine]

I disagree, and BioWare could have easily made another BG2 and thank god they didn't.

Earlier in the thread I posted pros and cons of BG and BG2 and it got several brofists but no one responded to a single point in it. BG2 has massive issues, and is overrated by many on the Codex whose balls evidently dropped at their time of playing it.

BG2 had also a very active modding community at its time. How many people played the game only unmodded? It's the same case as with NWN - if not for the contribution of modders, it would have never gotten as successful. For example: you list mage duels as one of the BG2 pros, but frankly, the original casting AI was plain stupid. I recall amazing sights such as liches gating fiends that would attack them, because they had no protection from evil. It was only after Tactics (I think, I'm not sure which mod introduced spell protection combinations for enemies first) came out that mage battles became exciting.

In my opinion if Bioware would make another game like BG2, but included modding tools, they would have hit a jackpot. That was what people were looking at that time. Instead they made NWN, which had modding tools, but also a boring, linear campaign, and not much to explore by comparison.

 

[Lilura]

BG2 had also a very active modding community at its time. How many people played the game only unmodded?

Many? Who knows for sure; but the Infinity Engine modding community was never what I would call "active", producing little CONTENT that's notable outside of fixpacks, tweakpacks, rebalances, Ascension, Tactics and SCS (all of dubious merit and quality) - and this thanks to the IE not shipping with a toolset, and being 2d and tileless. The banter packs and TCMs are unrateably poor, feeble attempts compared to what NWN modders can churn out with much less fuss and bother. So yeah, I wouldn't cite "modding" as a BG2 pro.

The magic of NWN is its toolset that strikes THE PERFECT balance between flexibility, power and Ease-of-Use. Players and builders have long since hit the "jackpot" with Aurora. Nothing comes close, past, present or in the foreseeable future.

As for mage duels, I never said they were perfect but they're good enough to cite as a pro for BG2, which is lacking in pros.

 

[DavidBVal]

The magic of NWN is its toolset that strikes THE PERFECT balance between flexibility, power and Ease-of-Use. Players and builders have long since hit the "jackpot" with Aurora. Nothing comes close, past, present or in the foreseeable future.

Indeed. I wish some thinking head at Wizards actually understood they have a PNP playerbase of creative people that wants to build without restrictions, by the very nature of the product they sell, D&D. Give roleplayers the ability to craft stories, and DM them, even on persistent servers, for fucks' sake. With nowadays monetization models, DLCs, expansions and whatnot, a perfectly made NWN3 based on fifth edition would be a great move. Instead they burn money into pieces of shit like SCL.

 

[hell bovine]

BG2 had also a very active modding community at its time. How many people played the game only unmodded?

Many? Who knows for sure; but the Infinity Engine modding community was never what I would call "active", producing little CONTENT that's notable outside of fixpacks, tweakpacks, rebalances, Ascension, Tactics and SCS (all of dubious merit and quality) - and this thanks to the IE not shipping with a toolset, and being 2d and tileless. The banter packs and TCMs are unrateably poor, feeble attempts compared to what NWN modders can churn out with much less fuss and bother. So yeah, I wouldn't cite "modding" as a BG2 pro.

The magic of NWN is its toolset that strikes THE PERFECT balance between flexibility, power and Ease-of-Use. Players and builders have long since hit the "jackpot" with Aurora. Nothing comes close, past, present or in the foreseeable future.

As for mage duels, I never said they were perfect but they're good enough to cite as a pro for BG2, which is lacking in pros.

The problem with the Aurora toolset is that for all the "flexibility, power and Ease-of-Use" you can't fix what isn't there in the original game. Both NWN and BG2 are simply lacking in combat department. The difference is, I can still recall some fights from the Ascension and Tactics mods, but not a single one from NWN mods. Even the HotU campaign, which I consider a fun dungeon romp, was a disappointment in this aspect. The best you could achieve was participating in PVP matches, but that just underlines the weakness of the original game: that you need player intelligence to create a challenge, because in-game enemies just don't deliver.

 

[Lilura]

The difference is, I can still recall some fights from the Ascension and Tactics mods, but not a single one from NWN mods.

Which mods have you played? And I wasn't just comparing combat, but of what the engine is capable of RPG-wise. And in this respect, not even modern engines are as powerful and flexible. Or if they are, they have little to show for it (NWN has 100s of quality modules, running the gamut).

EDIT - Anyway, I 'm no champion of NWN... At the end of the day, everything is shit. But like all RPGs, very little weight is put on refining AI.

Still, Henchman Inventory & Battle AI Mod aside, there are many custom AI haks that select builders use specifically in their own modules (i.e, campaigns/adventures). Here is a very basic overview of NWN AI and there are some nice demos here.

Here are two modules with advanced combat scripting (1, 2). EZ to download, EZ to install.

 

[hell bovine]

The difference is, I can still recall some fights from the Ascension and Tactics mods, but not a single one from NWN mods.

Which mods have you played? And I wasn't just comparing combat, but of what the engine is capable of RPG-wise. And in this respect, not even modern engines are as powerful and flexible. Or if they are, they have little to show for it (NWN has 100s of quality modules, ranging the gamut).

Combat isn't important for me if there is little of it, but if exploration consists of fighting your way through things, it better be interesting.

As for mods, I honestly don't recall after all these years; I've played NWN after HotU came out. With the exception of a few, they weren't that memorable.

 

[Lilura]

Combat isn't important for me if there is little of it, but if exploration consists of fighting your way through things, it better be interesting.

As for mods, I honestly don't recall after all these years; I've played NWN after HotU came out. With the exception of a few, they weren't that memorable.

I think you would probably like Swordflight.

 

[laclongquan]

Baldur's Gate 2 (& Throne of Bhaal)

Cons: ...added newbie-friendly options like .../Max hit dice on lvlup/100% spell scribing that everyone pretends they're too hardcore to use, ... Sarevok can join you and be turned to good, ... and finally BG2 seems to have nurtured a horde of elitist munchkin power-gamers who skipped the first game and falsely think BG2 is the best cRPG ever, better even than Fallout. It isn't, not even close.

The newbie-friendly options are NECESSARY because if you are macho enough to accept shitty random hit dice upon levelup I have nothing else to say to you. Just dont pretend that kind of way is superior and we shall have no problem. Ditto with fail chance to inscribe spell, since that simply is bypassable by using a 18INT potion. Why pretend the mechanic is worthy to even consider?

Sarevok turning is 50-50. On the one hand it ruin the old BG1 image of the arch villain. On another, oi, our MC is a fucking god-in-ascendant. He can do that shit.

And BG2 is better than BG1 period fucking dot. Dont even try to convince me the opposite. BG1 is boring. I abandoned it plenty of times because it's boring, with the latest is right outside of the fucking temple. The DLC Durlag Tower is more interesting and I complete it several times. The BG Reloaded module for NWN2 is completed the 1st time I play it. There is something fundamentally boring in BG1 and I've been saying that since the 1st time I abandoned it, not just now. BG2 can stand at whatever place people decide it, but I have never felt agreeable with BG1's place on the Codex pedestal.

 

[DavidBVal]

And BG2 is better than BG1 period fucking dot. Dont even try to convince me the opposite. BG1 is boring. I abandoned it plenty of times because it's boring, with the latest is right outside of the fucking temple.

Have you considered the possibility that you have really bad taste? Or you just love pigtails?

 

[Lilura]

The newbie-friendly options are NECESSARY because if you are macho enough to accept shitty random hit dice upon levelup I have nothing else to say to you.

Great reasoning, thar. But yeah, HD are rolled for enemies so why not you? Cuz you're "special"?

Ditto with fail chance to inscribe spell, since that simply is bypassable by using a 18INT potion. Why pretend the mechanic is worthy to even consider?

That's one of the reasons the potion exists.. to increase chances of scribing a spell to your spellbook. If you use a slider that insures 100%, you have just removed a potion's utility.

The BG Reloaded module for NWN2 is completed the 1st time I play it.

Like I said in the NWN sticky: people who play Baldur's Gate in the NWN2 engine.. disgust me.

but I have never felt agreeable with BG1's place on the Codex pedestal.

I don't think it's on a pedestal. BG2 is, though.

 

[Lhynn]

Earlier in the thread I posted pros and cons of BG and BG2 and it got several brofists but no one responded to a single point in it. BG2 has massive issues, and is overrated by many on the Codex whose balls evidently dropped at their time of playing it.

Uh, hadnt seen that post. Its kind of shitty and shows lack of understanding about what makes BG2 work. Nothing more than a list of things that in theory are bad, but nontheless work very well in the game without ever asking yourself why.

 

[hell bovine]

I think you would probably like Swordflight. Check the NWN sticky for more info on it, if you're interested.

If it has a good story, sure, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't use the old trick of large enemy groups (bonus points if they are just one type of monster) against low-level characters. I found it boring in NWN and BG1. :/

 

[laclongquan]

Bah, BG1 fanbois! They dont surprise me anymore~

 

[Lilura]

If it has a good story, sure, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't use the old trick of large enemy groups (bonus points if they are just one type of monster) against low-level characters. I found it boring in NWN and BG1. :/

Dah fuq? No, it doesn't do that.

It avoids many of BG's faults; i.e, the token C&C, OP itemization, unrestricted resting, lack of tough combat (trashmobs), failure to integrate a respawn mechanic into the plot (reloads), largely unused consumables and almost non-existent resource management.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

If it has a good story, sure, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't use the old trick of large enemy groups (bonus points if they are just one type of monster) against low-level characters. I found it boring in NWN and BG1. :/

Dah fuq? No, it doesn't do that.

It avoids many of BG's faults; i.e, the token C&C, OP itemization, unrestricted resting, lack of tough combat (trashmobs), failure to integrate a respawn mechanic into the plot (reloads), largely unused consumables and almost non-existent resource management.

So which game has great C&C, great itemization, restricted resting, tough trashmobs encounters, integrates respawn mechanic into the plot, consumables are necessary useful all the time and has great resources management?

Oh, wait none. As said before BG2 is best case of game that's better than the sum of its parts. Awful NPC like Minsc or Aerie? Sure but at the same time great party interactions. You can shit on unbalanced items that lets you exploit early parts of the game but i will take Vecna robes or Staff of Rhyn over blandness of PoE items

 

[valcik]

So which game has great C&C, great itemization, restricted resting, tough trashmobs encounters, integrates respawn mechanic into the plot, consumables are necessary useful all the time and has great resources management?

Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick Obscura.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

So which game has great C&C, great itemization, restricted resting, tough trashmobs encounters, integrates respawn mechanic into the plot, consumables are necessary useful all the time and has great resources management?

Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick Obscura.

It has only C&C. Itemization is worse than bg2, resting is not restricted at all, there are no tough encounters besides undead pirate captain, you dont need to use consumables at all and resources management boils down to searching for scraps in trash cans.

 

[Theldaran]

Indeed. I wish some thinking head at Wizards actually understood they have a PNP playerbase of creative people that wants to build without restrictions, by the very nature of the product they sell, D&D. (...) Instead they burn money into pieces of shit like SCL.

I feel like Wizards is mistreating the game, and misusing its potential. Probably the times have changed and D&D will be nowhere near as popular as in the 80s. But it can still be a somewhat profitable business. Since it's plain stupid to sell dozens of books with more player options (it gets old very soon), they could expand to the digital world, and to D&D fans with a PC, much like the maneouver from White Wolf to let Paradox exploit their product line. Ultimately, remember that Wizards belongs as a brand to Hasbro, real money grabbers, and I think they are hoping for the next MTG, but both businesses are really apart. Maybe it's even time for Wizards to relinquish D&D as a product, and pass it to someone else.