Why do you guys think about MMORPGs, and how they compare to RPGs?

[luj1]

Perhaps the biggest difference is that MMOs are also a socializing platform.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Also OP another benefit of SP-RPG's isn't just being the only hero in the world--without interruption--but the fact you can mod them! Modding adds tremendous replayability and value. It's much harder to mod MMO's because they usually don't allow that. A few example of MMO's that do are Wurm Online and multiplayer Neverwinter Nights.

An example is Two Worlds. I actually quite enjoyed this in my ubuntu 14.04. No crashes ever! I probably will make a thread about it. But the probelm is it's too easy and not diverse enough. I forced myself to only use 30% of the total skills and stats on medium difficulty. I wouldn't use hard because it disallowed respawning at shrines. Also the skills were very one-dimensional, in that the best setup seem to be put all your points into narrow areas. The combat while involving some amount of avoidance and scouting, is mostly tank and spank. Exploration is wonderful however.

ONe of the reasons Skyrim is popular is it's easily moddable. True for other games, like the egosoft space-sims. In fact, if X2 hadn't had modding capability built-in, I'd have far less positives to say about it.

 

[anvi]

But as i said, as long as it has no cool down moves, i hate those. Mortal Online had simple FPS action, no levels just percentages. It worked. It was a MMORPG. So again why blame MMORPG's for the themepark standards?

Um that's like not what this thread is about, at all.

What do you mean? But whatever it is, my bad

I don't think I explained this thread very well lol. Lets see if this next part helps:

*snip*

I like the single player action RPGs
but instead of terrible combat, I wish I could play as a WoW Druid or an EverQuest Enchanter or Necromancer etc. To me that would be the greatest gaming experience. But it never happens.

It's not simply a matter of mashing the same buttons repeatedly. No, you have to look at the circumstances and only use abilities pertaining to them.

That's exactly what I'm getting at. The combat is so much better and more reactive. I wasn't looking to compare MMOs to RPGs in general because there are so many differences and most of it is obvious. But I am talking specifically about the combat.

I played almost all of those games you linked from the codex top 50. I enjoy the ones with turn based or tactical combat, BG2 is one of my favorite games of all time. To me multiboxing in EQ is the closest you can get to a bigger budget, real time, Baldurs Gate. My issue is with the Skyrim, Gothic, Risen, Two Worlds, Witcher 3, Dragon's Dogma, (and now Dragon Age) type games. I love exploring the world in first/third person, and it is a world without other players, so I feel more attached to it. And like you said, there is usually more meat on the bones, there are some great background stories and lore with some of the MMOs, but mostly it is cheesy and full of grindy fedex quests. At least RPGs are a bit more focused and better. But the combat is where it all falls apart. Comparing the combat from something like Tera or Vanguard or (early) Rift, to something like Skyrim is just painful to see. Skyrim looks like it was made for retards, which I would argue it is. But still, I think players would much prefer it if they got better combat mechanics in these kinds of games. But devs don't make things they don't need to, and there doesn't seem to be any demand for it (yet).

If you google "best combat in an RPG", one of the more popular ones is Dragon's Dogma. But I tried playing it and although it does some stuff I really like, overall the combat is mindless and stupid. You can target body parts which is something, but besides that it is just zap shit with big lightning bolt, or zap shit with big fireballs. Compare that to the good examples of MMORPG combat and that should show you the enormous disparity I'm talking about.

 

[boot]

If you google "best combat in an RPG", one of the more popular ones is Dragon's Dogma. But I tried playing it and although it does some stuff I really like, overall the combat is mindless and stupid. You can target body parts which is something, but besides that it is just zap shit with big lightning bolt, or zap shit with big fireballs. Compare that to the good examples of MMORPG combat and that should show you the enormous disparity I'm talking about.

Don't play a mage in Dragon's Dogma.

You haven't played more than a few hours and you're bashing it. I bet you haven't even reached Gran Soren.

 

[anvi]

But mages are my thing! And games should support it.

 

[boot]

Then at least buy a few more spells before trying to compare it to Skyrim or Dragon Age.

 

[Suicidal]

If you google "best combat in an RPG", one of the more popular ones is Dragon's Dogma. But I tried playing it and although it does some stuff I really like, overall the combat is mindless and stupid. You can target body parts which is something, but besides that it is just zap shit with big lightning bolt, or zap shit with big fireballs. Compare that to the good examples of MMORPG combat and that should show you the enormous disparity I'm talking about.

How much of Dragon's Dogma have you played?

 

[anvi]

Like 7 hours or something. The last 5 were really boring. And I googled the list of available spells and it was cringy.

Fireball 1
Fireball 2
Fireball 3
Frostball 1
Frostball 2
Frostball 3
Lightningball 1
Lightningball 2
Lightningball 3

Wowaweewa such depth.

 

[Suicidal]

DD is a 40-50 hour game with lots of different enemies, giant monsters and bosses that can get quite challenging specially towards the end-game and in the DLC dungeon and require some skill and strategy to beat.

You're saying the combat is simple and boring at the beginning and that it's worse than "good" MMORPGs? I've never played a MMORPG, where the combat against mobs during the first few dozen levels amounted to anything more than "TAB 1 2 3, TAB 1 2 3, TAB 1 2 3". Most of them don't even go beyond this in the end game. Naturally, PVP is an exception because you're playing against real players.

 

[anvi]

Are you saying it changes significantly after several hours? Cuz usually when people use that excuse they are full of shit and I go back months later and play it further and yep, it is the same until the end. Most MMOs are like that TAB 123 but there are exceptions. In EQ you would die to a mob doing that even at level 1.

 

[boot]

You know what, you're right Anvi. Dragon's Dogma is just like Skyrim and Dragon Age. I don't know how I didn't see it before. This game, it just... doesn't stand up to MMO combat... it's just... not good. Yeah, I see where you're coming from.

 

[anvi]

I think it is probably better than lots of MMOs like GW2 and modern day Rift where all the mobs have 1hp. But compared to a good MMO it is really weak.

 

[boot]

sure thing bro

 

[anvi]

How can you even disagree? Dragons Dogma is just a very basic pew pew action game for console tards that happened to eventually get ported to PC. This is playing as a mage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCtARsbRjzM

You run around and stuff hits you and takes damage. Or he creates a big spike out the ground. Or he blasts stuff. Not much else to it.

Now look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsB6CWCTnLE&t=702s

 

[boot]

You're comparing MMO combat to an Action RPG. I don't think productive conversation is possible.

 

[Suicidal]

Are you saying it changes significantly after several hours? Cuz usually when people use that excuse they are full of shit and I go back months later and play it further and yep, it is the same until the end. Most MMOs are like that TAB 123 but there are exceptions. In EQ you would die to a mob doing that even at level 1.

Most of my favorite fights in DD are from the mid-late game. Stuff like griffins, dragons, golems, beholders, large groups of enemies and the mobs and bosses in the DLC dungeon were very fun to fight for me. But then again, I was also having fun at the beginning of the game too. I just don't see how the combat in Dragon's Dogma can be worse than any MMORPG combat against mobs. It doesn't matter if you have access to 3 or 30 abilities, killing mobs is not fun if all they do is run straight at you and use basic low damage attacks or spells while all you do is stand in place and press 1,2,3. I admit I've never played Everquest, but in literally every other MMO I've played the combat looked like this and I doubt that Everquest is somehow better than this from the few videos I've watched. The only exception is Tera, which is sort of like a shittier, online Dragon's Dogma.

 

[anvi]

Are you saying it changes significantly after several hours? Cuz usually when people use that excuse they are full of shit and I go back months later and play it further and yep, it is the same until the end. Most MMOs are like that TAB 123 but there are exceptions. In EQ you would die to a mob doing that even at level 1.

Most of my favorite fights in DD are from the mid-late game. Stuff like griffins, dragons, golems, beholders, large groups of enemies and the mobs and bosses in the DLC dungeon were very fun to fight for me. But then again, I was also having fun at the beginning of the game too. I just don't see how the combat in Dragon's Dogma can be worse than any MMORPG combat against mobs. It doesn't matter if you have access to 3 or 30 abilities, killing mobs is not fun if all they do is run straight at you and use basic low damage attacks or spells while all you do is stand in place and press 1,2,3. I admit I've never played Everquest, but in literally every other MMO I've played the combat looked like this and I doubt that Everquest is somehow better than this from the few videos I've watched. The only exception is Tera, which is sort of like a shittier, online Dragon's Dogma.

I don't doubt mid to late game gets better but is it much different to when I gave up after several hours? Almost every trash mob in the game I killed with 1 spell. Sometimes they needed a couple of clicks. The boss fights were sort of interesting but mostly it was someone else tanking for me while I just stood at the back and blasted my one big spell over and over. I didn't have to react to anything, there was no tense crowd control while focusing on something else, there was no concern of my mana resources etc. The list of spells is pretty sad.

EQ is miles better than other MMOs because there are 10000 named mobs that are each like a boss fight in their own way and require serious fast reactions and use of many different spells if you want to survive it solo. They are also not balanced for a single person so there is a chance it will be impossible for you to kill, and you never know unless you try. You will cast maybe 20 spells in one fight, several unique, and most people would fail to win the fight but you can win if you are good enough and smart enough. And it takes maybe a year to get to that point because there is so much to learn. There really is no contest.

 

[Scruffy]

i think mmos are a good idea, but then people ruin them, so a good single player game is still better

 

[anvi]

It is better at having the world to yourself, but it isn't better at combat.