Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Why do rpgs have bad gameplay?

Freddie

Savant
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
717
Location
Mansion
The problem here, imo isn't necessarily bad mechanics, but filler combat or player decision favouring combat option.
These are player choices in character / party building and what kind of approach player decides to take. Without these I don't really know if game could be classified as RPG but action / adventure / dungeon crawler.

Choices in character creation are good, the problem is that with no option to back-down on bad decisions you can't really push the player character building skills to the limit, because no sane dev will force people with shitty builds to restart the game after clocking-in 20 hours. And since it's hard to make a good character without having much experience it means that encounters and challenge are catered to mediocre builds, which hurts the gameplay IMO. I'm not saying that the gameplay have to evolve but people who accept making a character once and going through 60+ hours game with it should stop complaining about shitty encounters and easy bossed.
In that regard I agree with Lurker King. If people don't want to compromise they should just shut the fuck up.
While I share your opinion regarding nature of (c)RPG's there is still point of regarding difficulty levels where you didn't answered. The thing is, I don't think I couldn't beaten all the games I have played if I had used hardest difficulty level. Some of them were most likely turned to either unbeatable or too tedious.

Regarding developers, I guess both, bottom and top 1% of players are groups which creates a problem with adjusting different difficulty levels. I certainly feel like today's 'normal' is what used to be 'medium' in the past. According to some statistic I read, Steam or something, only 30% of players ever complete their games, they are in difficult position considering making truly challenging games. Then I have heard lot of good things about Dark Souls, so perhaps it's just finding the right audience.


Nope, RPG's existed before any of those genres, though in P'n'P format.

Yes, these games are also very different from their computer counterparts. I was under impression that we are talking about computer RPGs. If we are talking about tabletop games, the let me please take back everyone what I've said. Every fault listed in this thread (and every other thread similar to this) can be fixed by having a competent DM who will simply alter his adventures to suit the current party. There is no game in existence with better gameplay, because what can beat creating a great story with a bunch of friends. Everything ever said here is stupid and useless, we should all just stop talking.
What I find myself sometimes pondering is evolution of cRPG's. While trying to solve problem with missing DM and competing with other games, cRPG's indeed borrowed elements from adventure games, shooters and strategy games. Maybe somewhere focus was lost?

Would it really be that difficult to adjust difficulty levels so, that while novice player while exploring a cave encounters few Kobolds with short swords, hardcore player encounters Drow priestess accompanied with couple of Driders. Well, NPC's could be anything that fit the settings, but the two groups offer very different kind of challenge. First is low hp and low damage, which is melee, second can seriously fuck up explorers day with spells and ranged weapons and status effects (buffs and debuffs). The thing is, issues with combat and challege may be that it's too often tried to solve with 100 hp Kobolds, which makes combat just tedious, even there could be different kind of monsters, with different kind of tactical challenge, yet enemies wouldn't need to be bullet sponges.
 
Last edited:

GrainWetski

Arcane
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,102
You should probably throw away your controller, and Uncharted 4 or whatever garbage you're currently playing, and actually play some RPGs before you make a thread like this.
 

Valky

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Aug 22, 2016
Messages
2,418
Location
Trapped in a bioform
You should probably throw away your controller, and Uncharted 4 or whatever garbage you're currently playing, and actually play some RPGs before you make a thread like this.

Who do we blame for perpetuating the false claim that all CRPG's must be RTWP and story focused like baldurs gate? Who is responsible for this?
 

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
Joined
Apr 28, 2004
Messages
4,130
Location
YES!
Please tell me why Lords of the Fallen isn't as popular as dark Souls
It isn't as good, duh and it's a clone during dark souls height of popularity.
I'll try to engage with you. What did you use to play dark souls and why are the controls shit?

It isn't as good, why? Specifics. Reasons. Is the chargen better? The chardev? The combat? Is the combat smoother? Are the boss fights better? The trash fights? Is it clearer in story and objective? Better, and if so why? Saying a completely subjective statement just proves my point. Your argument is just like saying Jordan's were better then the Jackson's because they came out shortly after and Jordans were at their popularity peak. Objectively, they were a similar price (and the first wave of $120 sneakers, when they were always like 20-30 before this new craze), similar quality, performed the same functions, both represented high profile and popular athletes of the time.

Your argument proves my point perfectly.

Jordans were more popular for the same reason Dark Souls is mo0re popular and teeny bopper shit is popular. My daughter was listening to this fucking little vapid bitch singing this line over and over - "I lobe you like a love song, baby!" What the fuck? What does that mean? How is this popular? Why? How could anyone like this? It is the same reason I had to have Jordans and loved them way more than anyone should ever love something that goes on his foot. Tyrrany of the masses basically means kids are fucking idiots that are easily manipulated, like what they are told to like, and cannot fathom that something they like is shit. Some kids grow up and believe this until they die. Thankfully, most turn out somewhat normal and learn how to conduct cost benefit analysis, loss friends and all want of being cool after marriage and some kids and too many KFC stops, and figuring out that form is meaningless and function is what matters.

Secondly - as a civilized person I play games one way. The only way a civilized person can. And if you think there is nothing wrong with the controls, which require a fucking fan made patch and is still utter and complete shit, then you, sir, are a savage who either is a console retard and not worth talking to, or even worse, someone with knuckles dragging so low you have betrayed civilization and plugged a controller into your pc and should be executed.


I don't have time to get in a big drawn out retard fight at this point so I will clarify the PST comment.

Content is not mechanics. Grimrock with content could have the same mechanics and turn from a dungeon crawler to a crpg. If you take all the content out of MMX you have a dungeon crawler.

All the shit you guys are bleating about PST is standard now and was first used in FO. I don't see anyone pissing their pants over WL2's content or PoE's content, which did the same shit.

Did PST have good content? Yes, undoubtedly. Did it have good mechanics? No. Only if you like shit horrible combat, shitty AI, shitty pathfinding, etc.

We can explore the content and bring up issues, but the good more than outways the bad.

The only healer you get has no range option, cannot equip weapons for no sensible reason, and sucks in combat really bad. But she is a major character and the only healer.

The stores are in the last zones a normal rpg player will get to after you get out of the monastery. Whether you go left or right, you have no way to sell in the monastery, the first zone out, or the next zones after.

Once you go to the had lady the content becomes pretty linear zone after zone one way only. People had a field day shtting on Lionheart for this.

The chardev is awful and even has less choice than the other IE offerings, which is very lite. You can pick between three classes, and have no choices within them for the most part.

The itemization is half good half awful. Most recruitables have very limited upgrade options, NO has few options for armor, or weapon even depending on class. There certainly are some interesting weapons, but other than jewelry and tattoos there isn't much. Tattoos is a nice addition, and great for the limited characters that can use them.

I could go on and on. But at the end of the day, this game has great content and shit mechanics/gameplay. I see no way to come to any other conclusion with this or Bg1 bg2 or IWd. This is also true for the kotors, nwns, and the future console games these developers came out with. That is pretty much the standard for AAA rpgs. Tons of good content, eye candy out the wazoo, and shit mechanics aimed at not alienating fucking idiot retards who hate thinking or want super hot action without the numbers.

I think NWN2 has great chargen and chardev, but the combat is impossible to lose. You can literally rest after every fight with no consequences. The mechanics are so bad it washes out the good chargen and dev because they become meaningless. Why should I bother putting effort into a build when a retarded three year old can blow through combat almost as well? Certain games have good mechanics and shit combat, like FO and Arcanum. FO could be fixed with no saving allowed during combat, Arcanum was the publishers fault for forcing the TB/rtwp hybrid. But, just because I love the content of thes egames, and the chardev and gen, I am not going to trick myself into monkey thinking and fallacies. I like this game and had fun with it so the combat must be good, right? No. Look at darklands. I doubt many people hold the combat of that game up as a way to do it right. But the game is a gem that offered a ton of what no one else was at the time, and was good despite the combat, etc. PST is a gem that is a classic despite the combat and mechanics and AI and pathfinding, etc. Bloodlines is probably the poster child for action games with heavy rpg elements that nailed everything and is pure awesome despite the not so great combat (or not enough items in my opinion), etc.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,894
Lords of the Fallen had shit area design, shit bullet spongey enemy design, shit weapons, shit floaty controls (Souls games have pretty good player feedback), shit everything. The only decent thing it had going for it was the technical quality of the graphics (because the art style was also shit).

So no, it doesn't come close to any of the Souls games despite paying the series lip service and shamelessly (also superficially) ripping it off.

Your diatribe is hilarious, btw. Souls isn't shit because it's popular, it's one of those rare instances where a genuinely good game series is also commercially successful and enjoys widespread appeal. It happens. Hating on it because it's popular is beyond juvenile - just the same as thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread. It's just a good videogame.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
When I played Fallout my first time I thought the gameplay was good. I didn't learn until later that it was bad.
 

Machocruz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
4,366
Location
Hyperborea
Besides, Dark Souls is really not that popular to warrant comparisons to pop music, so the hipster lemming argument is strange. I wouldn't say they have widespread appeal either. They sell a few million, big deal when you have hardware install bases in the hundreds of millions. We're not talking Mario or Minecraft level visibility here. The "gaming community" is a fishbowl, where anything that gets a lot of chatter looks like a bigger deal than it is. Most people who game don't give a fuck about most games, aren't on forums, don't watch Twitch, etc. I remember someone elsewhere saying that the Uncharted movie is going to be a huge blockbuster smash hit because the games are so popular. Yeah, in the minds of Sony fans who can't stfu about them, maybe.
 

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
Joined
Apr 28, 2004
Messages
4,130
Location
YES!
Lords of the Fallen had shit area design, shit bullet spongey enemy design, shit weapons, shit floaty controls (Souls games have pretty good player feedback), shit everything. The only decent thing it had going for it was the technical quality of the graphics (because the art style was also shit).

So no, it doesn't come close to any of the Souls games despite paying the series lip service and shamelessly (also superficially) ripping it off.

Your diatribe is hilarious, btw. Souls isn't shit because it's popular, it's one of those rare instances where a genuinely good game series is also commercially successful and enjoys widespread appeal. It happens. Hating on it because it's popular is beyond juvenile - just the same as thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread. It's just a good videogame.

Lords of the Fallen is shit, it is just much better shit than Dark Souls. Your little kid attempt at sounding smart and listing nothing of substance or qualifying any assertions with any points or even attempts is what is actually hilarious.

I don't hate on it because it is popular. I love popular movies, shows, games, etc. But I qualify it with something - I actually like it.

Dark Souls is Jordan sneakers. Your child mind just can't understand this.

I do not like Lords of the fallen. I lonely like good games, and usually only rpgs. I do like Lords of the Fallen a lot more than Dark Souls. For actual reasons.

I would be willing to bet every cent and every possession I own, including my wife and two of my kids, that in a vacuum 100 people who have never heard of either game played both games on beefy pcs that at least 95 of them would prefer Lords of the Fallen. At least.

When you children are older you will understand my analogy is pretty fucking accurate. Dark Souls is Jordans is teeny bobber music. People don't need to know why they like it, they just need to know it is popular and everyone else likes it. But in a vacuum where there is no outside influence no sane person would ever listen to a song that repeats the line "I love you like a love song baby" or spend retarded amounts of money on sneakers when there are much better sneakers at 25% the price, or play a shitty game that isn't difficult for people who haven't been spoon fed console shit games for a decade and is complete shit.


I really don't want to continue this argument with hipsters who just have to be in the know of the latest hot thing. I prefer to converse with adults who have the capacity to form independent thought. Ta ta for now, kids.
 

Valky

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Aug 22, 2016
Messages
2,418
Location
Trapped in a bioform
Lords of the Fallen had shit area design, shit bullet spongey enemy design, shit weapons, shit floaty controls (Souls games have pretty good player feedback), shit everything. The only decent thing it had going for it was the technical quality of the graphics (because the art style was also shit).

So no, it doesn't come close to any of the Souls games despite paying the series lip service and shamelessly (also superficially) ripping it off.

Your diatribe is hilarious, btw. Souls isn't shit because it's popular, it's one of those rare instances where a genuinely good game series is also commercially successful and enjoys widespread appeal. It happens. Hating on it because it's popular is beyond juvenile - just the same as thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread. It's just a good videogame.

Lords of the Fallen is shit, it is just much better shit than Dark Souls. Your little kid attempt at sounding smart and listing nothing of substance or qualifying any assertions with any points or even attempts is what is actually hilarious.

I don't hate on it because it is popular. I love popular movies, shows, games, etc. But I qualify it with something - I actually like it.

Dark Souls is Jordan sneakers. Your child mind just can't understand this.

I do not like Lords of the fallen. I lonely like good games, and usually only rpgs. I do like Lords of the Fallen a lot more than Dark Souls. For actual reasons.

I would be willing to bet every cent and every possession I own, including my wife and two of my kids, that in a vacuum 100 people who have never heard of either game played both games on beefy pcs that at least 95 of them would prefer Lords of the Fallen. At least.

When you children are older you will understand my analogy is pretty fucking accurate. Dark Souls is Jordans is teeny bobber music. People don't need to know why they like it, they just need to know it is popular and everyone else likes it. But in a vacuum where there is no outside influence no sane person would ever listen to a song that repeats the line "I love you like a love song baby" or spend retarded amounts of money on sneakers when there are much better sneakers at 25% the price, or play a shitty game that isn't difficult for people who haven't been spoon fed console shit games for a decade and is complete shit.


I really don't want to continue this argument with hipsters who just have to be in the know of the latest hot thing. I prefer to converse with adults who have the capacity to form independent thought. Ta ta for now, kids.
I claim your house.
 

SionIV

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
590
Let's take a look at some of my favorite games.

Planescape Torment - Shit Gameplay.
Arcanum - Shit Gameplay.
Fallout - Bad Gameplay.
Dark Souls - Good Gameplay
Final Fantasy 9 - Mediocre Gameplay.
Morrowind - Mediocre Gameplay.

I would say that my favorite RPG's have shit gameplay with a few rare exceptions. There is more to a game than just the gameplay, or Torment wouldn't be my favorite game.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I like many rpgs not because of their 'gameplay' (ahah) but because their meta-fu is strong. Geneforge 5 possibility of keeping all the factions 'satisfied' even with the certainty that if you're caught helping others you're blacklisted and being given the tools to avoid that is one such example. Breaking the game sequence in Arx Fatalis by using the tomb to go further into the dungeon than 'intended', doing stuff much later in torment just to see unusual dialog etc.
Large games with large narratives are entertaining to break and see how well or not they react.
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
What I like about RPGs is how the numbers keep going up when you invest time and effort. It keeps me busy and makes me feel like an achiever.
:kingcomrade:

No really, that shit IS addictive.
Add ways to tinker around with the game and always keep me interested in what happens next and where the game leads me next and I'm sold (if you did the CRPG carrot on a stick char progression formula right).

Therefore completely open world games suck by default unless they have a chapter structure that also unlocks areas or major area changes (see Gothic). In most of them there isn't anything to look forward to except for the story which is always shit in CRPGs (there are some rare exceptions) so if I visited everything in the themepark I'm basically done with the game no matter my quest progress.

Games don't need a good story, they need variation and gameplay that opens up and gets deeper / more complex gradually as the game progresses. That's true for nearly every genre, but especially for CRPGs.
No far reaching C&C, 2 deep 4 u story (Realms of Arkania "3 bickering races vs orcs" story is good enough for a game), player driven narrative, emergent gameplay and other fancy shit like that necessary. Get back to the basics and try to do it at least as well as the designers in the 80s and 90s.

Sadly everyone of these hack frauds they call game designers nowadays thinks he's a fucking artist and visionary. :negative:
Did I do this right? I mean this is a everything is shit thread so I can't admit that I actually admire developers like Whalenought Studios or Larian for being visionaries even when their ideas don't always work.
I have to join the grumpy grandpa generalization circlejerk.
:mob:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,167
Only partly true.
Games that are considered Strategy games, but could just as well be considered CRPGs with a Strategy layer, have superior combat compared to most pure CRPGs: X-Com, Jagged Alliance, Heroes of Might&Magic and Age of Wonders games. They also do many of the other CRPG parts well (items, character development). But then they don't try to be interactive movies, which really helps.

None of those games you mention have anything close to the scope of a true RPG. JA is a bunch of tiny combat maps (compared to a huge typical RPG world and all the level design it involves), HoMM and AoW have simple strategy maps for their world. None of these games have anything remotely similar to the kind of in-depth dialogue true RPGs have, while they have some items and character development, its not nearly as in-depth as in RPGs.
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
And what is a "true RPG"? And why is in-depth dialogue an important requirement for a true RPG?
Then again would it hurt to have good in-depth dialogue?

Shit, with that on top the game might even be able to make me care about more than winning it and mastering the mechanics.
Twitcher 3 reminded me that good dialogue can pull you in too and keep you invested in the gameworld and characters.
Sadly it didn't add good and complex gameplay to the formula so I'm stuck somewhere in Blood&Wine and just can't be bothered to go back to it and do more well written stories with the same exact gameplay and retarded quest compass I had to do with in the last 100 hours.
 
Last edited:

Theldaran

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
1,772
Final Fantasy 9 - Mediocre Gameplay.

Man, I really want to pick FFIX in Steam to play it.

I never finished it when I had my PSX (I was beginning university at the time, so this is quite an alibi), but it probably holds up excellently today.

And yes, gameplay leaves much to be desired, but at least it's TB, right Codex?
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom