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Why do people think this game is hard? [SPOILERS]

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
The failures neither end nor break your game and they certainly don't force you to go back unless you simply must unlock as much content as humanly possible, in which case, tough luck. Play the game in the manner fitting your character and you won't have any problems.

The problem, VD, is that sometimes your view of what was fits your character isn't the same as what a lot of people think...
Yet these things become obvious the moment you start the game. The very first quest tells you what kind of assassin you are in this game and what to expect. You won't be jumping from the rooftops Assassin Creed-style but fight your way through enemies because you aren't a ninja or ballerina but a common thug or ex-soldier (reference to people hired by the guild).

Which, again, makes sense and is part of the game logic, but effectively reduces the number of ways that the player can interact with the world. And since all other forms of interaction are severely scripted, when the game doesn't offer you the (plausible) option that you expected, you feel trapped/stuck.
Examples? I'm asking to understand your point better not to argue. Generic statements like "you feel trapped/stuck" don't me anything as they are too vague. Yes, the game is heavily scripted so there are only so many options available yet most quests offer 3-6 solutions so you should be able to find one that works for your character. We went through different paths and options for each subtype within a questline to make sure that you can progress and beat the game. The checks aren't that high either as we usually check for no higher than 2/3 of the expected level to give you some room to experiment.
 

Mozg

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
2,033
IIRC talkers have a lot more chances to get away with minor failure than other people that get their SP income from skill checks, and lots of redundant options where you can avoid depending on your weaker skills (e.g. I'm going to take this persuade/cha check instead of bargain/etiquette because I haven't put anything in those skills in a while).

Thief archetype was a lot more miss the check for the one thief skill I need in this situation -> die.

Although that might have been patched since I played.
 
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TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
Thief archetype was a lot more miss the check for the one thief skill I need in this situation -> die.
Thief questline is still pretty bad in the end game when I tried it a month ago - I think they mostly just added some thievery opportunities that can get you some SP but it doesn't quite pay for itself.

You can play Thief as a... well, stereotypical Thief, a Talker or just a combat brute at the start, but then the end parts is like "Ok now train Traps or you die" and right after it suddenly it asks you to be an Assassin.

I suppose the game isn't technically unwinnable because you can always faction change at the 3rd town but man.

Merchant, Imperial Guards and Praetors questlines are a lot more predictable in what they expect you to do.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,124
Yeah, Thief questline got completely fucked up by the end. I don't know if they patched that shit out or not, but having checks for totally unexpected skills come up in the middle of the questline was just ass-backwards. You build for a sneaky pickpocket and suddenly you need to stab people, smooth talk some nobles, or suddenly become a trapmaster even though that skill check barely ever comes up before. Fuck that with a large cucumber.

That said, I don't know what kind of a moron restarts the game to get a new character when they fail a skill check. It's like you missed the whole fucking point of this game.
 
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Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
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When I think about the lack of challenge in AoD, I can only think in three things:

(1) Not many types of enemies. I’m not talking about enemies with different types of weapons, I’m talking about different types of beings. The problem with AoD is that 99% of your enemies are humans and most of their attacks can be avoided either by blocking or dodging. Once you figure which fights you can choose, there is no much challenge left. Take “Battle Brothers” for comparison. The fact that you are facing goblins, orcs or vampires makes a big difference to how you should fight.

(2) Lack of different types of terrain and covers.

(3) The enemies should use more unavoidable attacks like bombs, nets and bolas. If you are a dodger or a blocker, and know how to make a good build, you are set for life. Nothing can hit you. The fewer scenarios in which you can be fucked depend on your enemies using these items. The ideal would that there was no dodge and just blocking, but shields could be destroyed – again, look at “Battle Brothers”. That would increase the attrition and the death rate.
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,870,124
I don't know, I think there's plenty of challenge to be had. It's easy to do a talker who talks well, or a fighter who kicks ass.

But the challenge is in making hybrid characters who can access as much content as possible in one playthrough. I've had a lot of fun doing that, but it really required knowing the game inside and out, a lot of head scratching, knowing how to optimize XP, and then of course the fights can be tough if you're not build for combat.
 
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Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
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The problem, VD, is that sometimes your view of what was fits your character isn't the same as what a lot of people think, and the result is that several options seem to be missing in the game. "I'm a assassin, so, why I don't have the option of staying on the roof of this house to ambush these two individuals? Why I cannot poison this character using his food? Why I cannot bargain with this one? Why I cannot I steal from this guy here?" So on and so forth. I mean, I understand. You are only one person, and you cannot write all conceivable scenarios and all forms of interactions in the world in your game, this is a problem inherent to games that are deeply scripted.

This discussion again? The codexer is not a learning animal. Ok, since you will keep saying the same things, I will repost the same things. I don’t think that is possible to let players now in advance what they should expect, unless your quests are all about combat. It’s no surprise that the Imperial Guards playthrough is the favorite of most players. They are allowed to retrocede to the familiar and simplistic mindset in which you can just kill things without further complications – although this playthrough is more sophisticated than the garden-variety, because you can use clever solutions to many problems.

That is about realism. Take the abyss, for instance. It is very difficult to get into the abyss and survive. The lore will tell you that only one man manage to do this in a century. If most builds were able to do that, the assumption that this is a tough quest would make no sense at all. More than that, all the mystery and importance around the place would evaporate. The first impressions of most players is like this: "I invested in the skills X and Y. Therefore, they should be present every time I want to reveal content". But this is a egocentric way of seeing things. Just because you invest in crafting, it doesn’t mean you can get into the abyss with crafting. Instead, we should use a different mindset: 'I invested in the skills X and Y, but I can’t assume that the game world is designed around my choice of skills, because it has a logic of itself'. Of course, this will imply in some reloads and metagaming, but that is the only way of making a game world that is not designed around your ego. I will say this again. Most of us laugh at Skyrm fans, be we are spoiled by the same egocentric view, just in a slightly lesser degree. So, it’s not about having a disagreement with VD’s beliefs about things, but about feeling trapped because you wanted to feel in control all the time and beat every situation with your skills.

I guess it's a trade-off, you don't have the absurd interactions like in games that offers more "organic" interaction (like Fallout, where you can go putting dynamite in someone's pocket who is dressed in rags), but on the other hand, the world suddenly feels limited, smaller. Especially because in most RPGs, combat is the "basic mechanic" of the game - all other forms of interaction are built around it, which means that "if all else fails, hit it until it's dead". In AOD, combat isn't considered as the base, it's more like one of the options, you have to consciously make the choice to create a character able to do that. Which, again, makes sense and is part of the game logic, but effectively reduces the number of ways that the player can interact with the world. And since all other forms of interaction are severely scripted, when the game doesn't offer you the (plausible) option that you expected, you feel trapped/stuck.

That's why the game feels like a CYOA most of the time. It's a great CYOA, by the way.

That is rich. Now AoD is less of a cRPG than Fallout because it doesn’t let you put bombs inside people’s pockets. You make it sound as if every single quest in FO was a fest of interaction, but it isn’t. 99% of the quests are about killing things. The gameplay is only more organic in the sense that you need to walk more and travel in a big map to do the quests and can use your skills all the time. In a sense, it is about feeling in charge, not about being organic or whatever is the euphemism you choose to use. If you are talking about choices, AoD offer much more choices than FO, there is no comparison. The problem is that these choices are not silly ways to kill things, but imply deeper consequences. Players have so many bad cRPG habits and are so egocentric that they actually feel restricted when the different scenarios unfold before them. They want to retrocede to a more simplistic mindset in which the only choices that matter are cool ways to use bombs and stuff. It is a primitive and childish mindset.
 

Drowed

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
1,676
Location
Core City
The codexer really isn't a learning animal, and I don't really have patience to respond. So, play some tabletop RPGs and then tell me what are the (obvious and necessary/unavoidable) differences that you can see in a Gurps session and the construction of the characters and the choices of skills and how they work during the game, and what we can find in a computer RPG.

You make it sound as if every single quest in FO was a fest of interaction, but it isn’t

Obviously it isnt, that's why it wasn't my point.

But, yeah, this discussion has already happened several times, on several topics, with several people. It won't change now.
 

Jrpgfan

Erudite
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
2,008
"Wtf, I can't put a dynamite in someone's pocket. This game is a fucking CYOA!"

"I can't roll like Geralt. CYOA!"

"I want to roleplay as Altair but this game won't let me jump on someone from the top of a church. This is a CYOA!"

"I want to be a dragon. Why can't I be a dragon? This is not an RPG, it's a CYOA!11!"
 

Goral

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
3,552
Location
Poland
One of the most hilarious posts I've read: https://steamcommunity.com/app/230070/discussions/0/490123832544102607/?ctp=3#c358415738207396830

I have one thing to say about this game, I just bought it , I read all the bullcrap about how combat is difficult and it's not like your average RPG , yet they offer ASSASSIN and MERCENARY as two character options. I happen to like combat and I figured , it would be a good way to play the game having combat skills , I mean you enter a world like this you should know how to use a sword at least you should be able to play by the sword just as well as by your wits or your mouth am I right? To say it's a brutal place after all that has assassins and mercs as viable professions is reasonable conclusion to arrive at. However when they say COMBAT is difficult they mean for the player not for your targets.

What is odd is when I played as an assassin I was successful with two jobs had to kill a merchant and his bodyguard , the merchant was easy the bodyguard fought , I took damage , here is the kicker , no way to heal was obvious or presented, or even made clear to me. The result being my next mission I had to go on with reduced hitpoints and I had to kill two more people this time spies one with a lightninig fast dagger the other with a crossbow , I killed both of them. but then a third one comes in and I'm down to 11 hitpoints by this time and he has no armor ,only a dagger , I've got an iron scimitar and a shield , I've got poisoned javelins, missed wtih all of them and again and again he closes the gap and stabs away until I'm dead. Great game.....lousy combat. If you play Ironman mode then the enemy should be just as lame as your character and easier to kill if they have no damn armor on and the fact that you have a longer reach with a sword , not to mention a shield too?

I think this game sucks and ROLEPLAYING is nothing without combat. NOTHING, you may as well read a book instead , I suggest Sherlock Holmes.....lol....the combat in this game is lame and the map sucks too. The combat is very dissappointing and to me is a game killer being that the game itself is kind of Indie in design and retro , it's not as open a world as a modern computer is capable of. I bought it on sale so I will keep messing with it for a while but the thing is I had higher expectations , It should be possible to be a warrior just as well as a fast talking politicial type, to limit the combat side is just foolish in my book. There should also be healing potions so you don't have to keep dying when you get too many opponents which the game will throw at you even after you win what seems like insurmountable odds. It's like being punished for liking the action side of the RPG.
Why even have weapons if the only way to succeed is to talk your way out of every situation or manipuluate others? Some of us like to get our hands dirty.
And here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/230070/discussions/0/490123197946992902/?ctp=12#c358415738207464725
 
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
637
Location
Kangaroo Island
What a fucking scrub. Combat is seriously not difficult if you understand the rhythms and don't think you're able to take on a hundred dudes at once at the beginning of the game like you do in other RPGs.
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
That particular mission is dead easy for any half-decent combat character including the default Assassin - he clearly lost because he didn't know how to heal up, which he probably would have discovered by opening the map quick-travel screen at any point and noticing a "Healer" option or doing the Feng questline which will generally have you going to the Inn (where the innkeeper will offer to call the Healer if you talk to him).

I don't remember whether the game discourages you from going through all the Assassins quest one by one with no breaks in between though which might feel like the "obvious" route to some people.

No defending really dumb statements like the "it's not as open a world as a modern computer is capable of" line though
 
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Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
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Messages
1,865,419
If you play Iron mode then the enemy should be just as lame as your character and easier to kill if they have no damn armor on and the fact that you have a longer reach with a sword , not to mention a shield too?

Son, this only happens when you play in a IronLOL mode using a HUEHUE Sword. It's the longest of all swords!

I think this game sucks and ROLEPLAYING is nothing without combat. NOTHING, you may as well read a book instead , I suggest Sherlock Holmes.....lol....the combat in this game is lame and the map sucks too.

You mean, action games misslabeled as cRPGs are nothing without popamole combat.

the game itself is kind of Indie in design and retro , it's not as open a world as a modern computer is capable of.

Every game should be like WoW and Skyrm, even retro indie games.

There should also be healing potions so you don't have to keep dying when you get too many opponents which the game will throw at you even after you win what seems like insurmountable odds.

Oh god. I really need to stop reading every idiotic shit my fellow homo sapiens keep posting on the web. Life is too short.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
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Messages
1,865,419
healing potions , why not allow them to be sold by a vendor? No koblods , no monsters I get it , but if you have combat with sharp edeged and pointy weapons made of metal you need to heal conveniently to keep the story rolling , otherwise it's just an exercise in futility which is just easier to play a game that has them. Like Grim Dawn for example ,some may say how can you compare an action rpg with this game and I say why can't this game be action oriented and still have all those other qualities it says it has? Intrigue , dialogue , uncertainty and all that good stuff? Why shun combat? It's intrinsic to any rpg game regardless of if it is action or turn based , has monsters or no monsters if their is combat then why not make it as innovative and deadly as it would be in real life? Consider trying to fight a man in armor with an iron curved sword and a shield in a burlap shirt with a bronze dagger who do you think would win this fight? In this game the guy with the dagger wins every time. He's faster....at least playing as an assassin I ran into him and he was lighting fast , even after I made short work of his two compadres

:kingcomrade:

I don't understand what he is talking about. One merchant sell healing salves and there is a "Healer" location written in large letters on the map.
 

Jrpgfan

Erudite
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
2,008
Lately these reviews have been triggering me more than ever, because I've had contact with the "real" internet after a long time and it reminded me that people really do buy what those retards say.
 

Goral

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
3,552
Location
Poland
http://steamcommunity.com/app/230070/discussions/0/358416640397765186/
Dev feel smart to insult player in game introduction? Really?
Started the game and its introduction is a sort of insult as I'm a streamlined player and can only play CRPG wher a hero beat everything.

Sigh, more pretentious and he is a true god.

I played Pool of Radiance and Might & Magic 1&2 when the dev was probably nor born yet and he feels smart insult me? Really?
:D :D :D
Next negative review in 3..2...1...
 

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