Why do people think this game is hard? [SPOILERS]

[RhodokMasterRaceOfficial]

Really, I feel like a lot of this game's "impossible difficulty" in the reviews that I've read is exaggerated to an extreme. The people saying it's hard are either just retarded or are too used to games that don't really force them to problem solve or do something as simple as stick to a character archetype.

Combat is challenging, but not outright impossible or even merely difficult unless you're a fucking invalid the enemy stack has more than one ranged unit in it please fucking nerf archers/crossbowmen oh my fucking god those god damn cunts i swear to fuckin, or the Random Number Daddy God Generator decides to literally fuck you in the ass. With enough defence levels and an understanding of how to approach your opponents (I.E knowing to hit dodge enemies in the legs before doing anything else to them so they can't avoid you on the next turn and knowing to just power attack/headshot all blocking enemies) you might, at worst, be re-trying some fights to figure out what the correct opening moves are.
Admittedly crafting may have carried it for me in this regard in most of my MURDER playthroughs, since being decked out in full-meteor/blue steel will probably make you into a killing machine no matter what your build is. You can also just cheat by going for alchemy and TOSSING BOMBS AT EVERYONE, which is what I did in my thief playthroughs (although I keep getting stuck in the third town with those).

Dialogue seems to be mostly skill checks, which isn't very hard if you've got the metagame knowledge to know what speech skills need to be at what levels. There's really nothing to say about the difficulty of the dialogue path other than:
"If your character isn't built to be diplomatic then you're not going to have access to diplomatic options just fucking deal with it you prole"

My favourite character so far I think (until I finish my current playthrough as a martial-heavy 2h+dodge mercenary named "Cingeto", because murdering everything in sight is pretty hilarious) is probably one I did as a hybrid. It wasn't even hard, which struck me as bizarre when I finished it because all of the warnings I saw about doing so explicitly warn you not to unless you know what you're doing. ...which admittedly I did since I minmaxed and had a few playthroughs of metagame knowledge behind it.
The only stuff I got locked out of was the more advanced lore-related stuff, but that didn't bother me since that's not what my character was built to do. I built and played him as a charismatic army officer, not a scholar.
This is where the actual spoilers are:

Spoiler

I started a drifter with 8/8/6/6/4/8 and did a hybrid MURDER TALK playthrough with the imperial guards, focused on block/sword along with diplomacy and level 10 in crafting.

With this character, I became arena champion, helped kemnebi, helped basil, and basically killed anybody I deemed beneath me (for roleplaying reasons), I even killed both of the demons, and killed all of the constructs in the first floor of the Hellgate (I only went there to get the meteor metal for my armour since I didn't have the lore to really do much else there other than murder and loot the robots. This is a bit meta, I know.) along with murdering all of the scorpions to reach the temple. The only thing I couldn't kill was Agathoth or however his name was spelled, so I went with the "sleeping dogs" ending out of spite.

I didn't even go pure murder though, and I managed to do some things which seem like they should've been pretty damn hard for a primarily combat-oriented man to face. At least, I figured these checks were hard because I was save-scumming and spending my skill-point stockpile to pass them. I managed to talk the raiders out of the monastery and talk the ordu into fucking off rather than attacking the pass, and I arranged the Daratan/Carrinas alliance rather than just stabbing Antidas in the head, I even talked Strabos into telling me everything he knows whilst still being able to talk Pavola into sending him guards afterwards (word of honour).

My body count was only a modest ~130 by the end of it, since I basically took any diplomatic solution I was offered, but was still willing and able to hack anybody who fucked with me to pieces. I'm actually tempted to try it again only minmaxed harder than the first time, maybe do a 7/8/6/6/6/7 so that I actually can do some of the other lore stuff

My final thoughts on it, as I feel myself slowly exhausting character archetypes, are that it's a very solid offering. I'm actually struggling to find anything I'd say is actually bad about it other than nerf the fucking archers please.
The only things I can say I really dislike about this game are fucking archers oh my fucking god are that some skills aren't checked often enough, charisma is just as much of a dump stat as it is in Fallout (since extra skill and training from dialogues that check it aren't frequent enough to balance it against just taking int and getting extra XP from everything else), that it doesn't seem like all of the endings actually say what happens to my character (unless I'm bad at reading, correct me if I am), and (as popamoler as this is going to sound) the weapon/armour variety is kinda lacking for what I want out of a pseudo-Hellenistic historical setting.
I'd love some more arena content (unless there's stuff after the three title defence fights when you become arena champion and I just have to wait longer), Kemnebi actually having more work for you at some point would be good also, and for there to be more stat checks for people who boosted something all the way to 10 at chargen.
Really almost all of my complaints are that there's not enough of the game for me to play. I seriously look forward to whatever's coming from Iron Tower next and I hope it's just as good as this was.

Discuss good hybrid builds and glorious battle theory.

 

[makiavelli747]

charisma is just as much of a dump stat as it is in Fallout (since extra skill and training from dialogues that check it aren't frequent enough to balance it against just taking int and getting extra XP from everything else),

no, charisma is not a dump stat.
basically, if you want fight and talk, then charisma is better. if you prefer crafting/lore, then int.

 

[RhodokMasterRaceOfficial]

if you want fight and talk, then charisma is better.

You'll have to prove it to me with an example, because I'm not really sure I've seen it be very useful in the character I had mostly in spoilers and that was a MURDER TALK character. The most I think you need is the meta requirements for your character's story arc, going above that level doesn't really seem to be incentivised.

 

[makiavelli747]

You'll have to prove it to me with an example

ok, assassin's questline
10/10/4/8/4 vs 10/10/4/4/8
vignette: no def.
1st quest: needs persuasion 4 vs 2 to get reports
2nd: disguise 4 vs 0 to convince guards
3nd: none
4: impossible for 1st build to get to the Temple without a fight, for 2nd - disguise 4
5: none
6: disguise 6 vs streetwise 5 or streetwise 7 vs streetwise 3 or streetwise 5 vs persuasion 4
7: persuasion 6 vs streetwise 5

so, its something like disguise 5 streetwise 5 persuasion 6 vs disguise 4 streetwise 5 persuasion 2
+65 SP for charisma build for the basically same result
int bonus 20%..... I think its about +20-25 SP for whole AG
i don't remember much about training bonuses though

 

[RhodokMasterRaceOfficial]

So does charisma actually increase how much your "speech" skills are worth? That sounds like what you're getting at, and if that's what you mean then Charisma is actually hilariously OP in a game where the meat and bones is outside of combat. In which case I retract my statement.

 

[Malakal]

Oh nice, time to do a non CHA dump play through then!

 

[Western]

So does charisma actually increase how much your "speech" skills are worth? That sounds like what you're getting at, and if that's what you mean then Charisma is actually hilariously OP in a game where the meat and bones is outside of combat. In which case I retract my statement.

High Charisma also gets you free training with Feng, Dellar, helps with faction reputation that can also give you access to further training.

I posted this Hybrid build previously

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...psychopaths-needed.104081/page-7#post-4220622

 

[Tigranes]

So does charisma actually increase how much your "speech" skills are worth? That sounds like what you're getting at, and if that's what you mean then Charisma is actually hilariously OP in a game where the meat and bones is outside of combat. In which case I retract my statement.

You've never seen CHA + [Skill] checks? You've never seen DEX + STR checks?

So to your questions: No, but they do so indirectly; no, it is not OP, but it's interesting that you don't know this.

How many characters have you played, by the way? AOD gives you a very partial view of the game's mechanics when you run it with 2 or 3 characters, however successful/unsuccessful. E.g. your comments about leg hits being the go-to against dodge characters, etc. only apply to some character types and not others. (In a very simplified sense: strong Axemen are usually best off normal-attacking or whirlwinding everybody for maximum # of hits, while dagger/sword users can afford to just go for the torso or the head every single time except for the dodgiest of enemies.)

Not that I disagree with the general point. It's not an impossible game, it's just a game where you die a lot until you learn the ropes.

 

[RhodokMasterRaceOfficial]

You've never seen CHA + [Skill] checks? You've never seen DEX + STR checks?

I've seen them. And, thinking back on it, charisma being good actually makes a lot of sense.

How many characters have you played, by the way?

I've played about 4 all the way up to Ganezzar, I'm only ~60% through the achievements on Steam. I usually just used those "standard procedures" because of how I function as a gamer; I'm very careful. e.g I don't want to throw hail mary's at the fucker if they're only 60% to hit. If he's got a high block chance I want to hit him hard enough that it doesn't matter whether he blocks or not.

 

[Tigranes]

Yeah, how people play has a huge amount to do with how they end up perceiving AOD. Myself included, of course, though at this point I've run so many characters that I think I have a decent view.

E.g. with blockers, unless VD has patched this, the special effects tend to go through as long as you register a hit, even if the damage is mostly(/entirely?) blocked by a shield; this means that dagger/crit players, for example, might want to spam Aimed:Arms to render their enemies impotent, and even if the displayed THC is, say, 40%, they'll be able to wittle down the accuracy quite easily with the dagger's many swings. (40% would be THC to bypass block, after all, not the THC to register that special effect, in this case.) Similarly, sometimes you might be up against a guy in imperial armour but your best bet is to throw aimed:heads or torsos at the guy and rely on the crits getting through - which, if you built the character well, is quite often. In contrast, an axe user would again rely on the attacks most likely to take advantage of that high base damage to get through, which might sometimes mean going for regular hits to try and take on the armour DR rather than armour+shield DR, and at other times might mean using the axe sharpness to quickly wittle down that shield (e.g. if the enemy has a low DR shield but a great block skill).

 

[Johannes]

I think it's the difficulty curve of the game that gives a somewhat false impression at the start. In Teron when you start out, you have a very limited selection of SP. Especially if you play a hybrid it's very hard to do anything, if you don't yet have knowledge of what checks are needed where.

But when you get down a basic order at the start, that you can succeed at something which gets the SPs rolling and allows you to get the skills needed for the rest of the Teron quests, getting the ball rolling.

I wonder if you gave the player 10-20 SP more at the start, but reduced the SP gains you gain later to get even, how much that'd reduce the hardness complaints.

 

[Zanzoken]

I'm on my first playthrough and the combat feels about right. It's challenging but plenty winnable with good tactics and a little luck.

I think people have just gotten used to playing hybrid characters all the time. Most want to roleplay a charismatic badass that is good at both fighting and talking, just like action heroes in the cinema. I am fine with that and I enjoy it too, but AoD is not that type of game. It's not nearly as hybrid-friendly as most RPGs -- which is totally fine! Effective hybrid builds are possible, obviously, as many of you have done it -- but that route is definitely not for beginners.

I knew coming in how the game was going to be, so I planned accordingly. For my first playthrough I'm playing a STR-based tank fighter who fights with an axe, the heaviest armor, and a tower shield. Dumped INT and CHA, pumped STR and CON, average DEX and PER. The only skills I have put points into are Axe, Block, and Crafting.

My build isn't perfect and I have already seen a few places where I messed up. But I'm going through the Imperial Guards questline -- which seemed reasonable for a front line soldier type -- and my dude handles himself well. He's great in heavy traffic against rank-and-file type enemies, and struggles a bit against very high level guys who are super accurate and dodgy. But even then I have still managed to clear all the Arena fights, and with only a few deaths -- mostly against the Widowmaker.

The game really isn't that complicated. You just have to use some common sense and play it how it wants to be played. That the average player can't understand this and gets frustrated just shows how casual RPGs have become.

 

[Shadowfang]

Finish the game with my first hybrid. Not much of a hybrid in fact. Other than 8 int and 10 lore he was pretty much a fighter.
It was the most fun i had with the game so far and i learnt far more than with my pure talker loremaster.

The only fight i couldn't win against Al Sahir, i had to get the power armor first.
Switching between Horus/Apsis is a must. You get both the damage and the ap.
I stopped doing this after unlocking Ra until the last fight against Agatoth.

Crafting is awesome and i missed it in this playthrough, specially since i went for Axe.
If you are going melee and don't want to craft, go with swords. I ended up with an one handed Steel Axe, that i bough at Mandoran for 600, instead of a meteor gladius.

 

[TigerKnee]

I think this game actually has kind of a reverse difficulty curve as far as combat goes. Teron has a couple of easy fights like Cassius but most of them seem particularly brutal for the amount of SPs you get.

Which is probably what colours the perception - people get dunked on early, ragequit the game with the impression that it's really hard.

 

[RhodokMasterRaceOfficial]

I think this game actually has kind of a reverse difficulty curve as far as combat goes

Yeah that's what I felt when my SPOILER'd character was in the endgame. The only thing that was a threat to me at that point was Squidward.

 

[Azrael the cat]

There's a level of design-induced easiness in most crpgs that AoD worked very hard to avoid. FO1 and 2 are easy because they want to give each build multiple options for almost every problem, instead of having talkies talk all the time, fighters always fight and sneakers always sneak. That means lowering the challenge threshold to a point where you can still take options that aren't optimal for your character, and succeed with a few more reloads and strategy. E.g. a pure fighter might be able to kill Metzer's slavers head-on and without reloading/thinking. But they still want a talky character to have that option, so unless you've completely dumped fighting skills, you can still pull it off with some consumables, use of chokepoints, explosives and a few reloads. By necessity, having this breadth of options makes the game easier.

Dead State becomes easy because the map is fully open from the start, with story progression going by time instead of player progress. This means that players who fall behind are fully shut out (which is why there's still a lot of players complaining about it being too hard). Again, it becomes a design decision to keep things relatively easy, so that players have multiple viable options for exploration and base-building.

AoD did a better job than I was fearing when it comes to providing multiple choices for each character build - earlier in its development I was concerned that it really would be 'choose your one play-style at character creation, after that fighters must fight, sneakers must sneak, talkies must talk their way through every problem'. But there's still a trade-off being made.

 

[Eyestabber]

People who can't kill Cassius should be sterilized. Unless one is intentionally trying to get killed by him (skip turn over and over), I really can't see a way for the player to actually get killed in that fight.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

People who can't kill Cassius should be sterilized. Unless one is intentionally trying to get killed by him (skip turn over and over), I really can't see a way for the player to actually get killed in that fight.

Yeah, it's very hard even for pure diplo to fail that one.

 

[Goral]

People who can't kill Cassius should be sterilized. Unless one is intentionally trying to get killed by him (skip turn over and over), I really can't see a way for the player to actually get killed in that fight.

FYI Cassius was nerfed, he used to be tough for a hybrid character. Now killing him is like taking a candy from a baby. IMO he should be as tough as he was, at least it would somewhat explain why he was as stupid as he was and believed some random person that he's with Antidas.

 

[Eyestabber]

People who can't kill Cassius should be sterilized. Unless one is intentionally trying to get killed by him (skip turn over and over), I really can't see a way for the player to actually get killed in that fight.

FYI Cassius was nerfed, he used to be tough for a hybrid character. Now killing him is like taking a candy from a baby. IMO he should be as tough as he was, at least it would somewhat explain why he was as stupid as he was and believed some random person that he's with Antidas.

Makes sense. I never played early access versions of the game, so I wouldn't know. Only played Teron demo back in 2012 and full game ever since release version. That kid spewing incoherent gibberish was talking about release Cassius, tho.

Well, unless his pirated version of AoD happened to be EA version. Best unintentional anti-piracy system ever if that's the case.

EDIT: also, Cassius wasn't "stupid" as in "dumped his INT stat". He had academic intelligence, but was sadly lacking in "streetwise".

 

[Goral]

EDIT: also, Cassius wasn't "stupid" as in "dumped his INT stat". He had academic intelligence, but was sadly lacking in "streetwise".

Well, if an academic intelligent would go with someone who looked like a gladiator (i.e. a build with 10 STR, 10 CON, 8 DEX for example and with a BFS, i.e. big sword) and followed him to an abandoned shack he would be stupid in my book.

 

[Zanzoken]

I wish there was an option to kill Feng instead. For some reason I despise that fucker.

I always imagine his voice is similar to Kim Jong-il in Team America.

Spoiler

 

[Goral]

And I love Feng, he's a Chinese version of Miltiades.

 

[TigerKnee]

The fact that Feng does nothing of interest past Teron annoys me since the Teron epilogue "promised" him being out for your skin

 

[Johannes]

The fact that Feng does nothing of interest past Teron annoys me since the Teron epilogue "promised" him being out for your skin

He's in Ganezzar and can fuck you over, if you want to get on Meru's good side, unless you overpower his influence with your Talkan skills. That's my recollection anyway. Not sure in which all playthroughs he's actually a potential hindrance.