Why aren't historical time periods used more as settings within RPGs

[Athelas]

Well, what I wanted to say was: if Ass Creed is that popular, even though the setting is horribly inaccurate in its historicity, it still means you can get people interested in historical games, as long as the historical aspect is used in the most shallow way possible.

Fixed.

 

[JarlFrank]

Crusader Kings 2 is also rather popular around the internet, especially for the kind of game it is (complex strategy game), because of the fun shenangians you can pull in it.

As long as the game is fun, and you have some gimmicks for effective marketing (Ass Creed: parkour through renaissance cities!; CK2: marry your sister and assassinate your brothers!), it will become popular regardless of setting. Skyrim isn't popular because of pseudo-viking nords and dragons, it is popular because players can dick around and it has spawned some memes (lololol arrow through the knee) and the gameplay is generally considered "fun" by most people.

A GTA or Skyrim clone in a completely historically accurate setting would sell like hotcakes as long as the GTA/Skyrim like gameplay is fun. It's as simple as that. People care a LOT less about what setting their game is set in than is commonly thought.

 

[buzz]

I will say it again: in a post Minecraft world, whenever a publisher says "it will not sell enough", he's just not trying hard enough to sell the thing in the first place.

 

[Dayyālu]

People care a LOT less about what setting their game is set in than is commonly thought.

And that is the problem. Why wasting resources in doing a proper setting (be it smartly thought fantasy or historical accuracy) for a few grognards when people will buy it regardless thanks to the magic of marketing?

Sadly, you are pointing out correctly why historical settings aren't popular: they require too much effort and are too constrictive. Even those who try, however clumsily, to make a "different" kind of fantasy (Morrowind and its alien geometries or the pitiful attempts in DA: O "HEAR HOW COOL THE WORLD HIS OUTSIDE GENERIC ANGLOSAXON SHITLAND YOU HAVE TO PLAY IN") after a while realized that it is useless (Oblivion), as few of us care about historical accuracy or fascinating ideas. And we get back to the canonical problem that most video game "writers" are inadequate, even more nowadays.

As for the success of CK2, I would truly love if someone smarter than me could do a comparison in sales and connect it with its marketing and gameplay. CK2 is a game that almost plays by itself at a basic level, and it is in my opinion the easiest Paradox game. If its setting was Generic Fantasyland probably it would sell the same, sadly.

Regarding the possible bandwagon effect, we can only hope. I would love even chopped up historical pseudo fiction like Nethergate: it was at least an attempt.

 

[Lyric Suite]

This thread went into GD territory pretty quick.

Ha yes. GD. The latest "l1brul" (lol irony) scare word.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Another example of how moderntards fail to understand medieval society. For them, everything is about class, which fails to explain how somebody could be born a peasant and still become a renowned scholar and eventually even Pope:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sylvester_II

Its cause church acted as adoptionist corporation fishing from talents in all societal stratas? And until Renaissance it was not uncommon to be knighted by King in Potatoland for war heroism or other valuable services for crown; funny cause L1berals keep telling us that Medieval ages kept commoners down.

That's because they are fed the bullshit marxist version of history which is utterly retarded and based on herp and derp. 100% of history is class struggle and the powerful keeping the poor down, and religion has always just been a way to blind people from the truth, be it the ancient cults with many gods or the medieval Christian and muslim churches. In Marxist world view there is no place for spirituality and idealism, it is all just about bullshit materialism and people never do anything for reasons higher than themselves.

A huge crock of absolutely retarded bullshit that doesn't apply to any historical period ever.

Thank you.

 

[Grinolf]

As for the success of CK2, I would truly love if someone smarter than me could do a comparison in sales and connect it with its marketing and gameplay. CK2 is a game that almost plays by itself at a basic level, and it is in my opinion the easiest Paradox game. If its setting was Generic Fantasyland probably it would sell the same, sadly.

No. Massive appeal of Paradox games that they set in the real world with really existed countries (or at least having basis for existing) and characters. And ability to play as Vikings, ERE or some godforsaken insignificant country (from which player happened to be) and to kick asses of it's pesky neighbours is definitely not the same as some "Generic Fantasyland." That's why there was a masive hype of vikings in pagan expansion in CK 2 or ERE consistently receiving significant amount of content even in periods when they barely mattered.

 

[oscar]

History is one of those topics that everyone and their dog thinks that they know a lot about even if all they've ever done is watch a few History Channel pieces and sit through shitty high school classes (which are often decades behind present historical consensus and theories).

I'd be content with more low/no magic, history-based (though please show some creativity, directly importing fantasy counterpart Vikings, Romans, Mongols etc is usually pretty boring) worlds. The early Song of Ice and Fire series for instance (more fantasy influences start creeping in over time).

The hardest strictly no magic historical RPG I've played would be Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome. A shame the game the guy's working on now has such a lame plot about stopping an evil orc horde by acquiring magical artifacts.

 

[FuriousGamer87]

It's truly shocking that most people enjoy games more for their gameplay and not for their fluff.

 

[Johannes]

In case you haven't noticed, Ass Creed isn't really about historical events in any way, unless you think the time-transcendening conflict between Templars and Assassins is real.

Ass Creed do have historical settings regardless of whether you like their spin on it or not.

 

[Telengard]

Question: if historical setting would be so unpopular, why is Ass Creed so popular?

In case you haven't noticed, Ass Creed isn't really about historical events in any way, unless you think the time-transcendening conflict between Templars and Assassins is real.

Also, ninja assassins are super-cool. As are pirates. And samurai. And gangstas.

Super-cool things sell. The setting for Ass Creed is just a backdrop for being a super-cool ninja-assassin with special powers. It could be anywhen (as they have so mightily illustrated) without changing the story in the slightest. And as long as you get to be a super-cool ninja-assassin and the history doesn't intrude at all, is only what "everybody knows", people are cool with it. Get all real, though, and you're in tumbleweed territory.

Yet, a simpler illustration can be found in shooters. WW II FPSs are also popular. That's historical. But that doesn't make Western FPSs popular, despite the Old West being semi-popular. And it really, really doesn't make Vietnam FPSs popular. And then it's even worse for Korea or WWI. Now, imagine going up to a suit and saying you want to do a serious hisorical FPS (a popular genre) set during the Crimean War. And they go, "Craymeean what?" You've got to sell that idea to that ahistorical bugger, even though there's no cool factor. Nothing in there that goes whoosh, parkour, super-slash.

You're dead in the water before you even began. And that's with a popular genre. Now try and do it with an RPG, which is already niche. Tell him how many copies you're absolutely certain you can sell, and why he should invest in that instead of Dragon Age 7, where he can be assured of a multi-thousand dollar payday. And the only data you've got are the sales numbers for Expeditions: Conquistador and Gladius. Tell him how many tens of thousands of copies you might sell, and how that's going to make his day, when he could invest in something guaranteed to sell millions.

 

[Valestein]

Sadly, I don't think a single example of a Korean war FPS exists. A really underutilized (or rather, nonutilized) setting for gaming in general. You'd think WW2 (and post-WW2) American and Soviet hardware going at it would give it instant appeal but unfortunately not.

 

[Athelas]

That's because it isn't a 'glorious' war like WW2 (in terms of being an undisputed triumph and shades of grey).

 

[Dayyālu]

That's because it isn't a 'glorious' war like WW2 (in terms of being an undisputed triumph and shades of grey).

Correct, even if quite simple. If you want to cause a PR disaster, try to suggest a FPS were you can play as the Germans.

TB, strat games and simulations get a free pass (for example the quite good mod I44 for Arma2) because they are for a niche. It is unethical to play as an SS in a custom mission for Arma2? I do not feel guilt, but maybe someone does. Is he overreacting?

There are some "taboos" in what can be represented and what cannot: on the same line during the Vietnam FPS craze there was a single title that gave you the chance to play as the Vietcong (Vietcong 2, if I'm not mistaken). And even in that case, you fought, if I remember right, only south Vietnamese troops. Because they are "acceptable targets". Closer you get to our times, more and more you have to consider "delicate issues". A pity the medium will never be mature enough to tackle them effectively.

Bahh, I'm going off topic. Pardon.

And it really, really doesn't make Vietnam FPSs popular.

There was a Vietnam FPS age, sometimes around 2004-5. Fizzled out for unknown reasons.

Gladius

The description is not that interesting, but Xbox only...why such a waste...

 

[Johannes]

Question: if historical setting would be so unpopular, why is Ass Creed so popular?

In case you haven't noticed, Ass Creed isn't really about historical events in any way, unless you think the time-transcendening conflict between Templars and Assassins is real.

Also, ninja assassins are super-cool. As are pirates. And samurai. And gangstas.

Yet we have next to no RPG's where you play any of those in any setting with any kindof historial backdrop.

 

[vonAchdorf]

It's a mystery I once thought, history nerds were to blame. They'd be the first to be interested in a historical RPG, but would also be the most annoying customers, pointing out mistakes in research to the developer or chastising them for percieved misconceptions in the games "realism". But that turned out to be a wrong assumption, history nerds are really forgiving when the game is good. I mean Paradox, who's CK2 is as much an RPG as it is a grand strategy game (and the upcoming DLC will reinforce that), got away with invading Aztecs and supernatural quest lines with demon spawn or the retired samurai teaching you martial skills, while their forum is filled with people talking about obscure 1 province realms in the hinterlands of Africa or the court politics of the ERE.

 

[Telengard]

Yet we have next to no RPG's where you play any of those in any setting with any kindof historial backdrop.

There's like nearly a dozen Cthulu/Cthulu-inspired RPGs set in the 1920s. There's a few Victoiana RPGs, also pretty much Cthulu-inspired. There's a number of RPGs set in the past of China and Japan, most untranslated, but a few have been brought over to the West. And there's a couple Roman and one Greek.

But a quick glance through these titles will show you super ninjas-assassins, Cthulu lore, anime series tie-ins, and/or high-fantasy mythology. All of these have a historical backdrop, and they are as historical as Ass Creed, often even more historical, even with Cthulu monsters flying around. But the history standard by which people are talking about historical RPGs is much higher than that.

 

[Telengard]

We should probably also establish what Ass Creed is actually about here.

It's about a memory-traveling time-travelling ninja-assassin with superhuman HK* mystical kung fu fighting skills, mad unerring parkour skillz, and the ability to cast a limited number of spells (sense enemy, feather fall, etc). This super ninja dude flits about freely through time in order to assassinate various key figures in a grand and ancient global conspiracy by the templars that will allow them to rule the world, doing so on orders of his templar captors in the far future. Along the way, this dude meets various popular individuals from history who will help him/harm him on his journey to unravel all of the secrets of the ancient templar conspiracy.

This is Da Vinci Code level of history stuff. And that's the kind of history people can get behind. The completely simplistic, unchallenging, and really kind of stupid kind.


* Hong Kong

 

[oscar]

The description is not that interesting, but Xbox only...why such a waste...

PS2 as well so you can emulate it.

 

[Jick Magger]

And it really, really doesn't make Vietnam FPSs popular.

There was a Vietnam FPS age, sometimes around 2004-5. Fizzled out for unknown reasons.

I wouldn't really call it an 'age'. Battlefield Vietnam was released, a bunch of reactionary developers released a host of shovelware in response because Battlefield 1942 was popular, so they thought this was gonna be the next big thing. It fizzled out when Battlefield Vietnam got middling reviews and developers realized that Vietnam was still kind of a sore-spot in the public mind.

 

[oscar]

After googling Vietcong 2

 

[DaveO]

Both of the Worlds of Ultima games do have historical settings. Ultima 2 has different time periods you have to travel to. I am sure there are more examples.

The point I was attempting to make in my previous post is how much history do you want to bring into the RPG setting? Have your player be part of the Spanish Inquisition? Avoid the Black Plague? Touch off a World War?

 

[Night Goat]

Another example of how moderntards fail to understand medieval society. For them, everything is about class, which fails to explain how somebody could be born a peasant and still become a renowned scholar and eventually even Pope:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sylvester_II

Medieval depictions of demons were so much cooler than the banalshitboring ones we get in all the games today.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The presence of magic or advanced technology can be another factor, where many players would prefer to role-play as a character who wins battles through intellectual prowess rather than physical ability (let's face it: RPGs have been long considered a geeky pursuit).

Yeah, all these geek wizards everywhere, casting spells left and right in real life.

 

[Slow James]

I haven't checked to see if this was brought up, but there is a shit Black Isle game (yes, Codex, there WERE shit Black Isle games!) called Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionheart:_Legacy_of_the_Crusader

It was terribad, with medieval/Renaissance figures playing into an alt reality where demons and magic poured into Europe, the players fights as a Crusader against the demons and the Big Bad is a Muslim Hashashin.

Just imagine AC1 writing in reverse, but with demons and magic.