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Which, if any, fights are supposed to be unwinnable?

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
1,550
Location
Freeside
Codex 2012
They don't call it an ambush for nothing. Besides, the idea is to kill you for fucking with them, not to let you kill them.

The moral of the story is, if you cross the thieves guild, stay away from the Slums. It's the first of many ambushes and general unpleasantries that will be added in the upcoming updates to reinforce the reputation system. Wait til you cross the assassins.
It's not the idea itself that pisses me off, Vince. It's the tech behind this. So you let me play the slums for hours and do stuff, save, load next day and suddenly every save contains this "ambush". I knew you would come up with the "ambush" argument. And it's true in reality, but this is a game. You want the player to do what? Say "fuck it" and reload a save fom 2 hours before? That's what i did and it sucks.

How about the ambush is triggered somewhere instead of being "on gameload" for a location. That way, if the fight is too hard, i accept it and don't go there. Of course, i could reload and be prepared... But allowing some metagaming is better than saying "FUCK YOU". Also if the ambush triggers on load - i would just do everything there and don't reload there. That is my plan right now.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
The save thing is a side-effect, not the intention. I assume the game checks your rep/event (why you cheeky cunt...), checks the locations (really, Slums? after what you did?), and loads the ambush. In a new game it wouldn't be a factor and the ambush would be triggered when you enter the Slums next time.

Either way, we'll definitely look into it because it wasn't our intention.
 

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
1,550
Location
Freeside
Codex 2012
In a new game it wouldn't be a factor and the ambush would be triggered when you enter the Slums next time.
Didn't get this. You mean you'll fix it to work that way - i.e. on "Location entry"? Or should it work that way?

Anyway i am all for challenge, but consider critical path locations during design please. Otherwise the game could suddenly switch to ironmode just because of the C&C, which probably is not your intention either.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
It should NOT be triggered when you load a game. Only when you enter a location.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
Got into same ambush too. I welcome extra fight and new challenge but it's another of those "your 10 Perception / skills / whatever doesn't matter, go FITE on enemy territory with archers and carts surrounded from everywhere". Didn't have lots of skills tho except very high Critical Strike/Crafting/Alchemy, but I doubt you get spider sense from stats/skills or any means to counter it, judging by old Hermon fight and how developers add ambushes and fights first, and then have to figure out how to let various builds to handle them later.

And doesn't that sort of a fight break Thief quest because you won't be able to walk to Levir into a Temple?

The moral of the story is, if you cross the thieves guild, stay away from the Slums.
So they ambush you in a place that is known to be most dangerous in a city where player is not supposed to travel around much anyway? They're not very good ambushers then. It's better to ambush player while he is resting in a tavern at night, sticking dagger into his neck and whispering lovely words into his ear, or while he travels between cities.
Or when he is fixing bridge with the gem, or ambush him and trader who aquired gem (actually, trader begging player for help later and selling him into an ambush to save his skin would be most logical consequence).

Without options, players are left to reload and metagame. They will just return with tons of potions and skill points turning fight back onto itself. It is a lot better to give options/stats/skills to deal with things instead, encouraging players to search for them (like how Aurelian outpost is designed).
 
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Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
So what exactly is the deal with Agathoth? I've never actually tried fighting him, but now that I do, I learn:

(1) ~100 Dodge seems to do absolutely nothing, making it 2-3 turns max with 35HP/regen/12DR;
(2) Fire, bombs and the artefact bomb can potentially do up to 100 damage in that time if stocked up with max neurostimulants and such, I guess?
(3) Block character can at least block the attacks, but ~140 weapon skill translates to a ~25% max THC?
(4) Seems to have some kind of regen?

What else? Just trying to get the parameters.
 

hivemind

Guest
It's the first of many ambushes and general unpleasantries that will be added in the upcoming updates to reinforce the reputation system.
:bounce::bounce::bounce:
Are you doing something with loyalty/prestige/combat/peacemaker reputations too ?
 

Cazzeris

Guest
It's scary how many people couldn't handle the tutorial fights. Some people even cited it as a reason for refund - "died in the terrible tutorial". Some people (including reviewers) were upset that they failed at something during the vignettes because they were firmly convinced that failing at something so early is bad design.

I've just finished the three training fights just by repeatedly clicking on "Fast Attack". The game's systems are so much more forgiving now (specially for the early game). I can't understand how anyone would have troubles with it.
 

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
1,550
Location
Freeside
Codex 2012
I've just finished the three training fights just by repeatedly clicking on "Fast Attack". The game's systems are so much more forgiving now (specially for the early game). I can't understand how anyone would have troubles with it.
You could start with lower weapon skill and just always miss. It's very much doable to die. If reroll and start with a decent skill, you basically cannot lose, unless unlucky. But we probably talking about an average player here - and they are not accustomed to the fact that stats/skills immediately matter.
Most games start with a forgiving encounters and let you some room to get into the game. I.e. if you notice your THC is shit after a couple of fights, you upgrade it next ASAP. AoD just let's you die right at the start and this kind of immediate failure frustrates lesser beings.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,841
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
So what exactly is the deal with Agathoth? I've never actually tried fighting him, but now that I do, I learn:

(1) ~100 Dodge seems to do absolutely nothing, making it 2-3 turns max with 35HP/regen/12DR;
(2) Fire, bombs and the artefact bomb can potentially do up to 100 damage in that time if stocked up with max neurostimulants and such, I guess?
(3) Block character can at least block the attacks, but ~140 weapon skill translates to a ~25% max THC?
(4) Seems to have some kind of regen?

What else? Just trying to get the parameters.
Yup, seems about right. He has a ranged attack that poisons you if you move away, although it is quite a bit inferior to his melee attacks(no knockdown for one, seems to have lower THC too)

Pretty sure the best way to kill him is to have alchemy 6 and just spam a bunch of bombs at him.
 

hivemind

Guest
My only build that actually killed latest version full power Agathoth in a 1v1 me nerd type of a fight had 170 attack and 149 def along with 37HP and 10 DR and 12AP unbuffed.(used a two hander so no power armour)

The easiest way is to just hope to survive his first hit then pop an eagle eye neurostim and spam aimed arms, but it's also possible to simply fast attack spam him(that's how I actually did it for the first time cause I thought he'd be immune to aimed effects) if you have enough stims + shroom pots.

According to the THC info thingy that pops up when I hover over him with an attack selected he has 170 defense. Not sure about his attack but I feel that it's roughly similar.

EDIT: It's probably a lot easier if you have high alchemy for better stims/shrooms - I used either the 6 alch versions or the ones you get from quests/merchants
 

Raggg

Novice
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
28
So what exactly is the deal with Agathoth? I've never actually tried fighting him, but now that I do, I learn:

(1) ~100 Dodge seems to do absolutely nothing, making it 2-3 turns max with 35HP/regen/12DR;
(2) Fire, bombs and the artefact bomb can potentially do up to 100 damage in that time if stocked up with max neurostimulants and such, I guess?
(3) Block character can at least block the attacks, but ~140 weapon skill translates to a ~25% max THC?
(4) Seems to have some kind of regen?

What else? Just trying to get the parameters.
You can overcome his absurd defense with bolas to the head. That + the super bomb from Hellgate and bolter spam with 14 AP (dex 10, RA, neurostim) let me take him out with a hybrid. I bumped my crafting to make blue steel bolts but maybe more alchemy for some kinda fancy bomb would have been better. Kinda a shame that the crossbow passive and poison don't do anything.

Oh, and the sedative or whatever you inject him with beforehand of course.
 

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
1,550
Location
Freeside
Codex 2012
Got into same ambush too. I welcome extra fight and new challenge but it's another of those "your 10 Perception / skills / whatever doesn't matter, go FITE on enemy territory with archers and carts surrounded from everywhere".
Well, i played my older save and now came back. On my (now first) entry to the slums the ambush triggers. So how it supposed to work this time.

That fight cost me 3 fire liquids, 1 bomb and 1 net - having the best uber armor from being Arena Champion, Potion of Regen from Monastery, +23% THC Gladius and 7/10 weapon/block.

My strategy was to move to the carts, shove the guy there behind them, pass through and block the passage behind me with liquid fire.
The way to this state is doable, but only by keeping your fingers crossed, that the two-hander guy does not get a good swing at you and crossbowmen don't hit (too) hard.

Ignored the shoved guy for the most part and went for a crossbowman (i went to the right). Then run around the corner. Killed melee guys while retreating/behind cover from xbow. Then kited to full HP around the house and killed the last crossbowman.

And doesn't that sort of a fight breaks Thief quest because you won't be able to walk to Levir into a Temple?
This what i meant with "suddenly switching to ironmode". That sort of thing can be game over, even if you can reload anytime.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
I didn't expect bolas to work with him, I thought nets and bolas don't really work with any constructs.

My hybrid was having trouble on about 10 reloads just on the mathematical level of surviving for more than 2 turns.

Also, is it true that when someone is standing on fire, a further fire bomb will not harm them? That is my experience. Behaviour with fire is a little weird sometimes, e.g. if you hit them and their immediate retreat is blocked by another critter they will just stand where they are, but sometimes, if you hit them and they're surrounded by fire, they'll move 2-3 squares automatically!
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
Liquid fire is all sorts of bugged. But I am pretty sure you can damage critters with it that are already standing in a fire tile. At least that was possible before new update.
 

Raggg

Novice
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
28
I didn't expect bolas to work with him, I thought nets and bolas don't really work with any constructs.

My hybrid was having trouble on about 10 reloads just on the mathematical level of surviving for more than 2 turns.

Also, is it true that when someone is standing on fire, a further fire bomb will not harm them? That is my experience. Behaviour with fire is a little weird sometimes, e.g. if you hit them and their immediate retreat is blocked by another critter they will just stand where they are, but sometimes, if you hit them and they're surrounded by fire, they'll move 2-3 squares automatically!
IME liquid fire won't harm people standing in a fire tile, which I assume is a bug. There are some fights you can exploit this as a ranged character, throw a flask in front of yourself and stand in the fire and plink away.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
Tigranes probably meant the spike damage you get by throwing bomb to begin with, not a DoT. If Liquid Fire had DoT mechanic (getting damaged if you stand in a fire tile), it would destroy game balance because enemies can't run through it. It seems to work like a blocker-tile.
I assume engine just can't handle environmental damage tiles like a fire wall or a gas cloud. Even in Thief's D&D dungeon these are made by hand-placed script activators I believe.
 
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Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Yeah. I'm OK with how liquid fire works, but when an enemy is 'stuck' standing in a fire tile (maybe because they have nowhere to flee), and you throw another vial in their face, it does zero damage - which shouldn't be the case, I think.
 

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
1,550
Location
Freeside
Codex 2012
So tried non-weakened Agathoth with 10/10 sword/block, no mind shield.

Reloaded a couple of times to try to bolas + headstrike/armsstrike him to get into melee flow. But no dice, even if i do 2 head strikes first, he just slaps the crap out of me. Melee against him seems pretty much suicidal.

So switched to alchemy (7 with the last SPs), spamed liquid fire and strong liquid fire, acid, bombs. His ranged attack is very much blockable, but had to pray for him NOT to use his mind attack. Got him killed with very last few bombs and i mostly did not use much alchemy products in the playthrough - so definitely tough with resources available in the game (bought all oil/powder beforehand in Teron/Maadoran).

Edit: Alchemy route reads easy - but i reloaded like 10 times.
Edit2: Tried weakened Agathoth: +AP/Bolas, then 2x Aimed: Head + extra Aimed: Arms. Repeat 2-3 times. His melee is very much blockable.
 
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Eyestabber

Arcane
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Jan 15, 2015
Messages
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HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Dude, alchemy 10 + power armor + canister and you can kill him in the first turn with a little luck.

Also, anyone going melee needs eagle eye to be really effective, even at skill 10 + dreamweaver.
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
New slums ambush seems a bit out of place. The thieves guild shouldn't have that kind of muscle available to them.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Yeah, just ran into it, and my dagger/CS build who was steamrolling every other fight (literally, steamrolling) came to an abrupt stop. It's kind of weird that I've been able to basically kill everything in Maadoran except the Zamedi demon and Al-Sahir, and this fight... i.e. it is up there with the toughest fights. Very strong accuracy by those guys and a bad starting position.
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
Same thing happened to me. I don't want to be a pussy but it's a bit too much. I would suggest removing the trowing net in the beginning so the player has a chance to maneuver. As it is now, a crossbow knockdown in the first 2 rounds is an automatic reload and at 4AP per square movement you're just left praying to the RNG god...
 

hivemind

Guest
I like the difficulty.

Don't cross the mob and then walk on their turf if you want to live unless you are the hardest motherfucker in the world.
 

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