Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Which feauture did you always miss/want in Fallout1/2?

Discussion in 'What Remains' started by Surf Solar, Nov 27, 2011.

  1. kaizoku Arcane

    kaizoku
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    Ok, to get everything clear, there are 2 different gaming aspects here: (1) terminate the fight by the having a faction surrender and (2) terminate the fight by having someone (party leader? everyone in the party?) knocked out.
    I was talking about (1), not (2).

    In (1) this can happen anytime and it's independent of the weapons involved.
    For example: bank robbers inside bank and police outside. In reality both of them just want the conflict to stop, the difference being robbers want to leave with the money and police wants to lock them up. Different scenarios can happen here: robbers surrender unconditionally? robbers surrender after 1 of them gets shot and dies? etc, etc, etc

    Whereas in (2), you win the conflict and get to choose if the opponents live or not, independently if they wanted to surrender or not. It wasn't clear for me, but I guess what you're asking for in the game is to be able to deal non-lethal damage. Is that it?
    Ok, it's true that using knifes and guns to get someone knocked out and survive is not very realistic. But I'm not aware of any game that is realistic combat wise. My perception is that in real life when you get shot in 95% of the cases you stop there (no moving around, no shooting, etc) and if you survive or not is a different story.
    But cRPGs are very combat centric. If you remove the combat mini-game (ie, set the victor to be the one who's able to shoot and hit first), most people will twitch their nose on it.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm interested in this as well. I'm just not sure if it can work.
    For anyone interested, threads on RPGs without combat:
    http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=63256
    http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=63838
    http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=971108
    But I digress here.
    I'm ok with non-lethal damage being delivered in any form: with all types of weapons OR with just unarmed combat + non-cutting melee weapons (clubs, knuckles, hammers, electric cattle rods, whips, etc).
    The latter would definitely put more pressure and make some quests/encounters more interesting. But it would still be prone to a small exploit: shoot at few rounds first to drain most HP and then finish it with a[​IMG]
     
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  2. Spooky Skellington Arcane Shitposter

    Spooky Skellington
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    Oh, OK then. I don't really care about having a totally slick, streamlined interface for the inventory/shopping/looting. So long as it is functional without being annoying, which I remember is the only thing that annoyed me in FO1/FO2 on a technical basis (other than unintentional bugs).

    On non-lethal combat: I agree wholeheartedly. Getting into a fight with some miscreants in a tavern should not end up with anybody dead. Getting attacked by raiders in the desert, however, is a different story.
     
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  3. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    The inventory is made much bigger horicontally and vertically so you can see all your items on one glance (atleast if you don't have A FUCKLOAD of items in the inventory)

    As for non lethal combat, I have included non deadly ammo already (slugshots for shotguns for example) - they have a +90 Damage Reduction modifier at the enemy (shots mostly deal 0 hp damage), but very high knockdown chance. The same will be done for unarmed/melee weapons ("special attacks" - especially crucial for sneaker/diplomat characters).
     
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  4. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

    Quetzacoatl
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    Will being diplomatic have actual benefits to your character that a combat player won't get?
     
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  5. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    This is the idea, yes, ideally it should be a totally different gameplay than with a combat character. So far, it works really good, but keep in mind I'm not finished with the game, so I can't promise to have "it is possible to totally avoid combat!". ;)
     
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  6. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

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    Just don't pull a Chefe please.
     
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  7. Gorawala Educated

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    Totally avoiding combat is a must. Anything else is :decline:.

    Joking aside, What's the middle ground between a completely diplomatic character and a purely combat oriented one, e.g. one that can't always talk their way out of a situation nor beat up the whole playground? Why not make endurance a useful stat to invest in as a check to outrun random encounters? Say, an endurance of 6 combined with an agillity of 5 will see you outrun a pack of radscorpions when you reach the edge of the map but not a pack of feral dogs, which requires 7 in both stats? Perhaps a high agility stat will see you scale a wall, whereas your opponents cannot.

    Another example. You come to a bandit camp surrounded by trees or shrubbery, and the foundation is broken concrete with a semi-clay foundation. Talking to the guards won't work, nor will you win a shoot-out. A high outdoorsman skill will see you cut through a thinner bit of shrubbery (with a blade in hand) to the back of the camp. Then you may see a weak spot in the concrete along the way, which if you are equipped with a shovel (and strong enough) you can tunnel into the camp and complete your objective. If not, you carry on to the back door but maybe you have to plant a trap which completes your mission but compromises the reward.

    Back on topic, small features I would like to see added, hmm. Is there a way to avoid pixel hunts (like the rifle in vault 15) by having a click and drag search box covering an area, that highlights any interactive objects? Of course, this could be limited by distance from PC, enemy proximity or slight time usage to stop exploits or abuse.
     
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  8. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    The random encounters are a bit different than those you know from Fallout 1/2, they aren't that numerous, but are much bigger. It won't be that you spawn in the middle of the map with people surrounding you - they are rather big maps with 3-4 paths through it. So depending on your character, you don't have to outrun them at all. ;) Though your suggestions sound nice, I'll see if I can include some extra rolls somewhere.

    As for the examples you gave, that's exactly how it works. Find a different path to reach your goal and so on. It works like a "choose your own adventure" styled game, taking your example of the fence to cut through, you click on that weak looking spot on the fence, a dialog pops up and basing on your stats/skills/perks and such, you get different ways to solve that issue (or you get locked out if none of your stats is appropriate). I believe this is more interesting than the "combat character=solve everything through fighting - Diplomat=Instawin when clicking on dialogue node XY" - instead each skill can be useful somewhere, particullary for secondary skills like Doctor, First Aid, Repair and such, now there are much more uses for them instead "just" healing/repairing etc.

    As for the Pixel Hunting Issue - this is adressed, there will be a hotkey to show interactable items/objects in your Field of View (it was much needed in the original Fallout too, imo). Speaking of the Field of View, I planned to include Fog of War in the game. It gives some sort of accomplishment for exploration, and also helps seeing areas you have not visited on rather huge maps (most of them are twice/thrice as big as the original Fallout maps). What do you think about the Fog of War?
     
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  9. Gorawala Educated

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    It seems that you have some sound ideas going on there. :salute:

    With respect to the fog of war, are we talking permanent fog of war where you only see the field of view (a la Fallout: Tactics but blackened out originally), or the reveal stuff permanently once discovered type? It would make the sneak skill for a thief/espionage character very worthwhile but my major concern would be the double-edged sword that is perception. I would presume it would be coded so that perception gives better LOS and put blobs in hidden areas where sound is detected. It would make the sneak skill very useful, presuming the AI gets the same bonus/penalty as the PC does, but getting caught (by enemy or trap) usually = frustrated people reloading (except with well-planned limited saves). Would people pick perception as a must-have every time to avoid getting caught, or a stat they can avoid thanks to loading?

    Also, is your game world static or is it randomised a little for each playthrough (if that's possible)? What is your ethos on replayability with regard to the fog of war? That's the only concern with the exploration bit, otherwise I think it's a good idea.
     
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  10. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    About the fog of war, I've made some little mockup to see what I mean.

    [​IMG]

    The area around the character(s) is brightly lit and shows his FoV based on Perception - but I thought the default standard one is too low, so I made that second circle around the basic one. This should be a bit better than the tiny default. The area around the FoV will be (if already discovered) blacked out as you can see. In the southeast, there is undiscovered (=the actual fog) area. Basically, it's just the same as it was in all the Infinity Engine games. And yes, it majorly helps sneaking, it was one of the reasons I wanted that - although I hate to say - there is currently no sound detection for players/enemies, as the engine doesn't know that characters can "produce" sound. Eventually, we will have footsteps maybe (it's on my wishlist atleast ;D ) so it's maybe possible some day.

    About the randomization - yeah it increases replayability. But I think I will wait to set randomized things till I am done with everything - so I don't screw anything up in the process, and small stuff like critter placment, or placing items etc. is prone to change during development.

    As for the saving system - we use a similar one like you described, it's in the same subforum here. ;)
     
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  11. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

    Quetzacoatl
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    Will being an evil bastard not fuck you over as badly as it did in Fallout 2?
     
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  12. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    I personally don't really like the "lol evil!" stuff Fallout 2 had, aswell as that silly Karma meter. Such stuff is more depending on the situation, being evil just for the sake of being evil makes no sense and feels too gamey for me. So yeah, there will be occasions you can be a real asshole, but not on the cost of the "credibility" or "4 the lulz". The closest to such situation I currently have is buying/enslaving a child to be a mule and carry all your equipment in your party.
     
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  13. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

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    See if you can even make that situation ambiguous. Like having the alternatives for the kid be arguably worse.
     
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  14. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    One vote to any semblance of an enemy AI (though the non-combat stuff you described sounds great). FO combat was likeable even if it was primitive and broken, and even basic AI would multiply the fun factor - take cover, flank, rush, target weaker/threatening. Perhaps each NPC can have a combat personality rather like how the FO party NPCs were coded... but even if that's too hard, generic routines would still be great.
     
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  15. tiagocc0 Arcane

    tiagocc0
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    There's one thing I liked in FOT that didn't had in FO1 and FO2, a big pool o characters you could use and be able to use more than one companion! Instead of doing companions hard-coded into the story you could spawn some randomly at bars for example so if one die you just get another and you won't have to worry about saving and loading like hell because the stupid companion got himself killed.
    Another would be able to start as anything other than human.
    But since you said minor changes then maybe those two suggestions may not fit.
     
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  16. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    tiagocc0 - look in the "How do you like your companions?" thread - based on the feedback there, the thing you suggested will be in. ;)

    As for the "starting game as something other than human" - a story subplot revolves around something similar to that, you can choose it at the beginning too. I'm proud to say that the character creation so far is almost 2-3 times as elaborate as the original, there are really many things you can customize your character both on looks as on the stats. Can't wait for you guys to see that when I release a demo. :p

    Some ugly sideproduct of testing new "races" is this (fail) here (just to bring some screenshot in ;P )

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. tiagocc0 Arcane

    tiagocc0
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    Oh, I will read this thread then!

    That's great, I will be sure to play the demo when you release it.
    That's the part I like the most, character creation, some games I would spend half the time playing just creating chars.
     
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  18. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

    Quetzacoatl
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    Will races be balanced? Will it affect reactions even more than races in Arcanum did ?
     
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  19. covr Cipher

    covr
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    In FO/FO2 I miss huge, badass monsters. You know, there are ghouls, deatclaws, supermutants, by they've got similar size (I suppose due technical reasons). So, why there was no gigant-mutated crature that stalks cities/sewers, etc.?
    I also miss more interactive use of weapons. For example, during conversation you could shoot someone, or hit with a gun. Locked door? Shotgun lockpick. Have to destroy computer, or scare somebody? Use shotgun.
     
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  20. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I think that to avoid such exploit, lethal and nonlethal damage should be kept separate and lethal damage should be large enough to seriously risk killing a person on effective hit with lethal weapon, so no whittling away bloated HP.

    All weapons should deal both types of damage, except nonlethal weapons would only deal measly amount of lethal damage. Melee weapons could typically have lethal and nonlethal attack modes.
    Lethal weapons could deal varying amount of damage - for example a large calibre pistol is much more likely to incapacitate someone even if the shot happens to not be instantly lethal than a small calibre one.

    Of course there is one more thing that could be used to shorten such exploits - bleeding. If you shoot someone up then knock them out, the game should keep tracking bleeding. If the character bleeds out they should count as killed by the player. Depending on whether player attempted to stop bleeding and stabilized the character (variable set by using first aid or doctor on victim - will those two be merged?) it might fall somewhere between nonlethal and killing the character in COLD BOLD (at least you've tried to keep the guy alive), or worse than just killing the character (wounding someone and leaving them to die slowly).
    I dislike Fog of War as it makes the exploration a chore and makes sight distance unrealistic.

    I think the way to make Fog of War I could like would be to make it occlusion based.
    For PE = 10 the distance shouldn't matter at all and for any PE >= 5 only the extreme distances should ever matter for spotting people, creatures and other large objects .

    Fog of War as pictured (widened area) could only work for PE = 1, else it would just be dumb.

    American Hare?
     
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  21. Quetzacoatl Liturgist

    Quetzacoatl
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    Yes.
     
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  22. Cassidy Arcane

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    I know you will most likely not implement it, but for me it is being able to control multiple PCs in a party. Field of view could be fun too, and another thing Fallout surely lacked was having all its skills useful and eye shots not being terribly overpowered.

    Also, requiring action points to maneuver and put a weapon in a ready to fire position... nevermind you can't have the best of both worlds.
     
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  23. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    But all this is exactly how it'll be ingame. :P (sans the eyeshots, they are taken out)
     
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  24. Cassidy Arcane

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    I think you know what I meant more specifically: the best of Fallout and Jagged Alliance 2. That is just technically impossible to implement in any reasonable timeframe.
     
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  25. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    Ah, yes this is true. The combat in JA2 is just much more fluent and tailored to the game, it, eh "flows" different if you get what I mean. What I am trying to do is to add more depth and tactical possibilities to What Remains, but ofcourse it will never be as good as JA2.
     
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