Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Decline Where my Bubbles Gone?

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by HoboForEternity, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. ᚱᚨᚷᛖᚠᚢᛈ Educated Queued Shitposter

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    But Obshitian didnt so wont shill for it.
     
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  2. Lhynn Arcane

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    This is the single most stupid statement you have made, the system is always the single most important and defining element in a campaign, even in narrative heavy campaigns, because the mechanics dictate the possibilities of the actors. A campaing played in AD&D, Aquellarre or Vampire will play wildly different simply because of the rules. It literally dictates how you interact with the world you stupid fuck, even implying that it has diminished importance because the campaign doesnt use its systems as often is equally retarded. Important still have to be rolled, the duration of a players round still has to be taken into account, the tools/skills you have at your disposal are completely different from system to system.
    Its just a very stupid and ignorant thing to say, and you should be ashamed for saying it.

    Why? put forward examples.
    Maybe for you, but then again you liked poe :lol:, so what do you know of fun.

    It doesnt tho, if you actually played the system once youd know that all relevant information is on the characters sheet and that the un-intuitive arithmetic is merely a problem of substracting instead of adding. Just swich the - with a + and you just fixed it, you retarded monkey.
    The DM had his own screen with his own relevant tables and rolls, that the players didnt need to see or know.
    And modern systems are? :lol: The whole idea behind the systems efforts to abstract is to get to the fun part of adventuring.

    Why not? you rolled the die to see what stats you got, and it was perfectly valid to go with a strong and smart warrior or a nimble and resilient warrior. The strong and smart warrior had advancement possibilities that the nimble and resilient didnt. The nimble and resilient warrior had better chances of surviving in group fights than the strong and smart one and quests like finding the legendary belt of frost giant strength to cover for a character weakness were genuinely good plot hooks that would keep the campaign rolling with the DM having to dictate its course at all times. It felt much more organic.
    I rather have no choices than choices that come down to "you pick the optimal option for your build or you ruined your character, see you on the next level up".


    Thats dumb, even at the same table we could have 4 fighters and all 4 played completely different, because the system wasnt minmax heavy it encouraged exploring options. And even then you had paladins, who had to balance a good charisma and wisdom scores with the scores that were actually relevant to their class, so while they were clearly a more powerful class choice, they also presented clear drawbacks. If the party had 4 fighters you could find a smart fighter(for int maybe future dual classing, extra non weapon proficiencies, a skilled and educated man with a lot of possibilities), a charismatic fighter (laid back kind of guy with a magnetic personality for example, maybe even a poet on his free time) , a wise fighter (strong willed, perceptive and sharp), and nimble and smart fighter (a cowardly one that didnt want to be at the front, that relied on proyectiles, crossbow would work particularly well for him) depending on what the player cared about the most. Stat distribution made a whole lot of sense while it was kept grounded.

    Wasnt tedious, and again, you only did it once, so it could be as complex as needed. It also made a hell of a lot more sense than systems like 3.5, where it takes more experience to become a level 2 mage at level 5 than at level 2, while gaining the exact same benefits. These were generally character defining elements that dictated who your character was, classes were more than just a pack of skills and abilities, they were an ethos.


    Wasnt quite about balance, it was simply to signify the human spirit ever reaching new heights. This has been kept alive in every edition of DnD and in almost every system inspired by it in one way or another. Be it with an extra ability, a bonus to exp, etc. Was an optional rule either way.

    which ones?

    True.

    Untrue, actually in AD&D everything had a fairly low HP pool.

    I enjoy rolling lotsa dice, dont you? Anyway, anyone that has played a wizard for long enough can tell you that statistics dont matter when its time to roll your fireball to see if your enemies die or dont die, low rolls can fuck over strategies while high rolls could solve encounters, it also was your only 3rd level spell for the longest of time, but it was a great one that you were always looking forward to using.
    Nowdays you can cast a fireball every 15 seconds and the damage is about a 10-15% of the enemy max hp.

    Wow, just wow, you really are retarded. First, there was a priority, from first to last. If the saving throw was from a wand but the effect would instantly kill you, you still rolled against death, because it was the highest priority save. Second, the fact that saving throws were fairly static meant that you actually got better against magic. Unlike nowdays where mages make it harder to save as they go up in level you actually developed effective defenses against a threat. Third, every class had lower saving throws against things they were expected to know or handle the best at the start.
    There were plenty of dragon breaths by the way, some could outright kill you, some could stop time for everyone affected, etc. Stop being so god damn ignorant.
    I frankly loved the system, having a 5 against death was a big deal, getting an item that lowered that to 4 was a big deal. It wasnt a big deal at level 8 but bad at level 14, it was a BIG DEAL ALWAYS, you were plain good at it. Especially considering just how plagued of nasty effects the game got as you leveled up. That meant that while it was easier to save the stakes were higher.

    You could, and i would obliterate every stupid point you ever make, you ignorant twat.

    Everything makes sense.

    Not really, you cant be a rules lawyer in AD&D, it was all so clear cut that it was impossible to misinterpret them, unless you didnt read the rules and tried to force your ignorance on others. Ive DMed AD&D as soon as 2015, to players that only new 3rd edition, cyberpunk and other newer systems, they loved it.

    No, you are incredibly ignorant of the subject matter and should just shut the fuck up like the bitch you fucking are. The lying, conniving bitch you have been from day one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
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  3. Prime Junta Arcane

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    Nice wall of text. I notice you didn't answer the two simple questions I put though, Lhynn.
     
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  4. Murk Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    You think that's a wall of text?

    ... you really are the harbinger of decline.
     
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  5. Lhynn Arcane

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    I powergamed the shit out of the system, it had nothing to do with minmaxing tho. Every system ever designed can be powergamed, thats never been an issue, the issue is wether its fun to powergame it.

    I did a couple times, throwaway characters. The DM did have me start the story as the same level character than the party, i was one of the two enemies theyd have to face to beat it. My stats were awful, i didnt have a chance in hell of beating the party statistically speaking, and the DM knew it, we (me and a friend that also got there late and didnt have characters in that campaign) were supposed to be a distraction. A lot of things came into consideration with my awful throws, ended up being a fighter, ended up picking sword and shield and a crossbow, the heaviest armor i could afford, and because we knew where the fight would take place, we set up a small ambush to wear them down before attacking them.
    Put up a good fight, it was us 2 vs 4 of them and i was the last one to fall, only 1 of them made it out of that fight concious. (we could have killed a couple but i was aiming to win the fight, not harm the party permanently).
    We were fighting against characters that rolled 4d6, drop the highest and reroll 1s, so they had a yuge advantage. I did remember getting a couple crits in a row in that fight, and saving when i really needed to, overall had a blast.

    But it is, really fun. you just dont get to play what you want to play. But it can still be extremely fun, and in a way its a great feeling, making a character concept on the fly, and running with it, being constantly aware of your weaknesses and compensating for them.

    Thats fair enough, comes down to your own preference tho, the manual gave you several options to handle it.

    Nope, its p. great. Not the greatest ive ever seen but it gets the job done and adds a lot to the game.
     
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  6. Prime Junta Arcane

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    Lhynn you still haven't answered those two questions. I don't think a meaningful conversation can be had until you do. It'll just be "no you're wrong" back and forth.

    Thing is, I have a clear idea of what I want from a PnP RPG system. Until I know if you do too, and what that idea is, we have no basis for discussion. Thus far I'm not able to infer any general principles from what you've been saying, other than that you like rolling lots of dice.

    What do I want from a PnP RPG system?
    1. Simplicity. Rules should be simple to understand, easy to remember, and simple to apply.
    2. Parsimony. The minimum number of rules should cover the maximum range of gameplay situations.
    3. Consistency. Rules should build upon each other and work the same way whenever possible.
    4. Intuitiveness. Rules should produce results that feel intuitively right, and should not produce results that violate common sense.
    5. Focus. A system should know what its core gameplay is, and make that as fun, interesting, and fluid as possible. Secondary areas should be addressed by general guidelines that allow for arbitration and improvisation.
    How about you?
     
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  7. Crispy The Sum of All Evils Undisputed Queen of Faggotry

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    You just decribed AD&D.
     
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  8. Lhynn Arcane

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    What do i want from a PnP RPG system?

    I want for it to be fun. What else? Everything else is just a laundry list of shit that doesnt really matter as separate elements. Ive said time and time again that it comes down to execution.

    Why? what does simplicity add? what does it take away? You need to understand that its all a give and take, if you simplify your system something will be lost, if you make it more complex other things will be lost. Finding the balance is important.
    Also a systems complexity can add a lot to a games themes and feel if it resonates with the setting.

    Again, give and take, it makes it easier to keep track of, but every answer to a gameplay situation being the same means that every gameplay situation will feel similar, and you definitely want to avoid this, it needs to feel like an adventure, and nothing destroys that more than repetition. I think this is one of the main reasons that while you almost roll a D20 in AD&D, you sometimes want a high result, and sometimes a low result. When you are trying to bend bars or use thieving skills you use a d100, etc. These situations are unique enough that changing die adds to it.

    What does this even mean? Rules should definitely build upon eachother, feel like a whole, but then again, most subsystems should do this, it adds depth to the game. Work in the same way? not really, changing rules and mechanics if you are fighting in space, or in a lake, or in the middle of the forest, or inside a cave, all these things are fun, they keep the situations fresh. Magic itself should be about changing the rules of the game, or making them work in a different way.

    What does this even mean? sure, rules shouldnt violate common sense, but sometimes you dont need to write those rules, you have a human (or subhuman sometimes) DM there. We are not playing magic the gathering here.

    Sure. But for example you have games like rolemaster which have tons of charts and tables to make every roll result more detailed in a simulationist sense, and while it interrupts fluid gameplay it adds detail. Its all a give and take. Comes down to what you are willing to sacrifice to make something possible.

    Sure, but in this sense most modern systems dont allow this flexibility, this is the reason rules lawyering is a thing nowadays. And that every retard that comes from playing 3rd and 4th edition wants to apply their rule lawyering on 5th edition and find that the rules dont really let them.
    5th edition was a return to simpler time, with more clear but less specific rules that leave a lot of room for the DM to apply his own criteria.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
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  9. Stainless Veteran Arcane

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    I kinda detest point one. Streamlining very often is just dumbing down something, just with a prettier name. Also if you don't want all those pesky rules, you'd better off playing improv.
    Also all this points are great for casual players, but casual players are kind of a cancer to TRPGs. You can argue if you like, but TRPG are extremely nerdy hobby which attracts geeks, nerds, freaks, and trannies. Of all of the above only two later categories sometimes have problems with complex rules, especially if they came to playsession for attention whoring. Do you really need to cater to them though?

    Anyway, it's not like AD&D is so unituitive and horrible that you need changing it. I manged to grasp its fundamentals without knowing much English, just by playing EoBs, Dark Sun and Dungeon Hack. Most of the non-english speakers who were born in 80s, and are posting here, probable were the same.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
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  10. Make America Great Again Infinitron Trade Master Patron

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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
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  11. Gamma Learned

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    So which PnP system best facilitates having sex? Like cyber sex, but with each other... in the same room. Together.
     
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  12. Stainless Veteran Arcane

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    FATAL. Roll for anal circumference.
     
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  13. pippin GOD MOD ENABLED

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    tfw no crpg using the FATAL system
     
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  14. Prime Junta Arcane

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    In that case, we have nothing to talk about, since 'fun' is entirely subjective. :salute:
     
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  15. Prime Junta Arcane

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    It can be, and one design decision that needs to be made is what the right amount of complexity is. Do you abstract damage out as hit points, or do you model injuries? If you model injuries, to what degree do you model them?

    However, in most cases it's not even a matter of streamlining. It's a matter of not putting in complexity for the sake of complexity. For example, there's no actual reason for AD&D's bizarre STR stat that counts up from 1 to 18, then from 18/01 to 18/00, then up from 19 again. The only reason it's that way is historical: somebody thought the original 3-18 spread didn't allow for sufficiently Conan characters, so they added the percentages; then someone noticed that the percentages didn't account for actually superhuman strength, so they added the numbers up from there. AD&D is like this all over the place: the systems are at the same time unnecessarily complex, and that complexity fails to serve any useful purpose. It's all completely arbitrary, just a stack of rules and sub-rules piled one on top of the other.

    All of it only makes sense from a historical perspective. OD&D is a pretty neat system. It's also highly limited: it's designed to arbitrate dungeon crawls in dungeons built from standard features. There's a feature called "iron bars," so the system has a rule for "bending iron bars." It doesn't allow for iron bars of different strengths, or bronze bars, or steel bars. It doesn't have to, because that's not what OD&D is about. AD&D however is much more ambitious: it's about adventuring in general, not just dungeon-crawling. However, instead of having actual designed systems covering this added scope, it has a pile of modifications and additions on top of the old rules plus a bunch of optional subsystems. It even has two completely unrelated, alternative, and optional systems for resolving non-combat tasks -- non-weapon proficiencies and secondary skills -- neither of which really works. You've got page after page of lists of specific things, and no general rules for arbitrating any situation that's not specifically addressed in the rules.

    Edit: BTW I'm a non-English speaker who was born in the 1970s. I figured out D&D and AD&D too. For a long time I didn't even question the system at all, since there were no other RPG systems available to me -- there wasn't even a store where you could buy the damn things, so whenever somebody went to the US we had a shopping list for them and then passed around the things as Xeroxes. It was loads of fun.
     
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  16. Lhynn Arcane

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    [​IMG] :lol: Indeed.

    Theres no such a thing as a formula to make something good or fun, it always comes down to every individual choice and how it impacts on the game as a whole. People can find faults on fallout 1 systems, but that doesnt change the fact that it is a fun game that holds up perfectly in 2016.
     
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  17. Maculo Savant

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    But then I will have to keep tabs on two threads of drama, instead of one, holistic drama thread.
     
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  18. Prime Junta Arcane

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    No, there isn't a formula. If there was, all games would be fun and good.

    It is, however, possible to do both analysis and design. I have had loads of fun playing PnP AD&D as well as other games, but it's not an undifferentiated muddle of fun. I can point out things that contributed to the fun or detracted from it. For example, I do not like it when looking up or applying rules unnecessarily interrupts the flow of the game, or when a player has misunderstood the rules and I have to stop and explain how it works, or when the group wants to do something that's not covered by the rules and there are no general guidelines to help resolve it. I mean sure, you can improvise, but if you have to do that a lot, what's the point of having rules in the first place?

    You know what I dig most about AD&D? The notion of the multiverse linked together by the Planes. It gives everything a big, overarching, deep logic that lets me resolve all kinds of weird situations in ways that remain consistent and true to the setting. There's room for literally anything there, and if you like, it's possible to link all of it together. Now that's a structure that's simple, parsimonious, elegant, and rich. Al-Qadim wouldn't be the same without the connection to the Elemental Planes -- the vortices, traveling to the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire, all the rest of it. And it has fuck all to do with the mechanics -- which die you roll against which check in which situation. That's the kind of logic I want to see in a system as well.
     
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  19. ᚱᚨᚷᛖᚠᚢᛈ Educated Queued Shitposter

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    PnP is not games, morans.
     
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  20. Make America Great Again DarkUnderlord Bringing that old Raptor magic.

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    Meh, it's the Codex. No way this thread was going to survive without getting hilariously derailed into autism.
     
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  21. Excidium II Arcane

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    When is Prime Cunta getting ejected?
     
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  22. tuluse Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    When will people admit AD&D sucks
     
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  23. Harg Harfardarssen Erudite Patron

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    Wasn't AD&D 1E made, in part, to knock Arneson off the cover (and royalties)?

    Wasn't AD&D 2E published to limit Gygax's royalties after he was ousted from TSR?

    Live by the sword I guess.
     
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  24. Make America Great Again Kz3r0 Arcane

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    Please donìt interfere with their autism by pointing out that commercial enterprises follow business logic not nerd logic.
     
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  25. Lhynn Arcane

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    Who here is denying that?
     
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