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What's the point of randomness?

Snorkack

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Chess can be fun if you enjoy strategy
While the underlying mechanics of chess are deterministic, the actual game isn't, since you're playing against a non-deterministic enemy (Many chess algorithms employ monte-carlo simulations, which is basically taking RNG to the fullest). A more fitting example would be Solitaire (not the Windows card game; this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solitaire_01.jpg ), which is boring pretty fast, at least for me. Or a rubik's cube.
 

DraQ

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A lot of randomness needs outright ironman or at least a sufficient disincentive for reloading to truly shine.

(A lot as in "lot of cases", you don't want a lot of randomness at once - thankfully putting a lot of randomness together results in things becoming less random.)
 
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Craig Stern also hates RNG. He wrote A LOT about this, and his Telepath Tactics game have no randomness.
I have read a number of his articles on randomness and rpg combat systems. In general, he is wrong. Usually either because he invokes an outdated straw man like THAC0 to argue against or because his unique tastes blind him from the bigger picture.

In addition to what others have mentioned, taming randomness is often one of the most interesting and rewarding aspects of character/deck building. It also allows for variation in AI behavior.
We're all blinded. We all want XYZ and think everybody else is that way or should be. Or maybe we feel alone, so we argue accidentally in the attempt to find like-minded people. Maturity is when you accept others are different and your first impulse isn't to retaliate angrily any longer, as a general rule. Don't go into Dairy Queen and complain they have ice cream (or don't have pizza) if you got other options! If ice cream eaters annoy you, don't go into Dairy Queen. Or get over it. Just don't expect them to change. The world doesn't work that way. You have to have some resilience.

You'll find this is true for almost everything. People are different. We're not products off the assembly line.

EDIT: My take on randomness is I could care less what bigtime companies or eveb indies do. I'm confident if there's anybody who likes randomness it'll find an audience and a place somewhere. I can even code it myself. There're multitudes of already existing games with randomness. I feel no great urgency to be anxious about its future.
 
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vean

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Randomness is bad. If I can execute a set of moves twice and have both a win and a loss then the game is meaningless.

Games aren't reproductions of reality. There's no duty to "represent the hidden factors" with dice rolls. A video game is just a themed puzzle or reflex challenge (or both) and adding randomness is nothing more than very lazy game design.
 

felipepepe

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If you win or lose depending on a dice roll, then your strategy is weak.

Planning is important, but being able to quickly react to a bad roll and get the upper hand is an equally important test of skills. That's the point of randomness.
 

Ninjerk

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I agree vean. You should be able to execute the same series of moves and trivialize any game.
 

vean

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If you win or lose depending on a dice roll, then your strategy is weak.
No, if you have enough redundancy in player force that you can win despite "dice loss" it means the level isn't balanced.

Planning is important, but being able to quickly react to a bad roll and get the upper hand is an equally important test of skills. That's the point of randomness.
It doesn't matter. We can invent lots of tests of skill.

A FPS where the mouse moves randomly. An adventure game where your character has a 10% chance per hour to die of heart failure. What makes this any less meaningful than chance-to-hit randomness?

Because it's not.
 

adrix89

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In a tactics game you are supposed to think like a commander.

A commander gives orders to his units but does not control the outcome of the individual fights. This is why he has to make contingency plans.

Even in a fps or action game no player is 100% perfect(except quake 3 players) and that is what randomness simulates.
 

Alchemist

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Randomness is bad.
Joined: Jan 3, 2016
:M

Without randomness, your game universe is peopled entirely by predictable robots and doesn't have any resemblance to the physics in our known universe. That sounds boring as fuck!

Chaos is fun, and it's a core part of RPGs. One of the best times I ever had with a tabletop RPG campaign was playing Dungeon Crawl Classics, and that system is swingy / random as all hell.
 

vean

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You two desperately need to make a bigger effort to read and think or this is going to be frustrating for everyone.

A commander gives orders to his units but does not control the outcome of the individual fights. This is why he has to make contingency plans.
You don't need randomness for that. You make contingencies because you don't know what your enemy will do. If the game is so limited that it's always obvious what the enemy will do then that's a bad game and no amount of randomness is going to fix it.

Without randomness, your game universe is peopled entirely by predictable robots and doesn't have any resemblance to the physics in our known universe. That sounds boring as fuck!
Are you drunk?

Chaos is fun, and it's a core part of RPGs. One of the best times I ever had with a tabletop RPG campaign was playing Dungeon Crawl Classics, and that system is swingy / random as all hell.
Let me suggest that the enjoyment didn't come from the randomness of it.
 

felipepepe

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If you win or lose depending on a dice roll, then your strategy is weak.
No, if you have enough redundancy in player force that you can win despite "dice loss" it means the level isn't balanced.
On the contrary - if you have a battle where victory is only possible by perfectly executing a strategy without a single miss, than your game is an unbalance mess that leaves no room for player input. Gameplay shifts from "try to beat this" to "you'll only win if you figure out what the devs want".

It doesn't matter. We can invent lots of tests of skill.

A FPS where the mouse moves randomly. An adventure game where your character has a 10% chance per hour to die of heart failure. What makes this any less meaningful than chance-to-hit randomness?

Because it's not.
Don't be stupid. Missing in a game like XCOM presents you a new challenge, as you likely failed to kill an alien and now exposed your troops - so rethink your strategy and deal with it.

In contrast, both your examples are just arbitrary shit that you can't plan not work around.
 

adrix89

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You don't need randomness for that. You make contingencies because you don't know what your enemy will do. If the game is so limited that it's always obvious what the enemy will do then that's a bad game and no amount of randomness is going to fix it.
If two warriors are at each other you as a commander aren't going to do shit from far away.
It's up to the individual skill AND luck to decide who wins.

Wargaming didn't have randomness just because it sounded fun. Risk management and reacting when a plans break is an integral part to the commander experience.
A real world commander can only paint with broad strokes.

Do not be a pussy, be a commander. Randomize.
 

Ninjerk

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Sounds like he is calculating probability distributions on the fly.
 

vean

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If two warriors are at each other you as a commander aren't going to do shit from far away.
It's up to the individual skill AND luck to decide who wins.
Games don't model real life and you don't need luck/randomness for interesting gameplay.

On the contrary - if you have a battle where victory is only possible by perfectly executing a strategy without a single miss, than your game is an unbalance mess that leaves no room for player input. Gameplay shifts from "try to beat this" to "you'll only win if you figure out what the devs want".
That's what games are all about - figuring out the puzzle or beating the reflex challenge. And your strategy doesn't need to be perfect obviously. It just needs to be better than the other player's.

Don't be stupid. Missing in a game like XCOM presents you a new challenge, as you likely failed to kill an alien and now exposed your troops - so rethink your strategy and deal with it.

In contrast, both your examples are just arbitrary shit that you can't plan not work around.
Not at all. Both of them are equivalent to chance-to-hit. Mouse movement can be mitigated obviously, and % chance to die means you're now speedrunning. Sure the RNG could fuck you anyway, but the same is true in XCOM.
 

felipepepe

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That's what games are all about - figuring out the puzzle or beating the reflex challenge.
And having variables like RNG means that the puzzle changes every time - even mid-combat.

Really, all this seems like butthurt from having your solution fall apart after an unlucky roll, nothing more.
 

Alchemist

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That's what games are all about - figuring out the puzzle or beating the reflex challenge. And your strategy doesn't need to be perfect obviously. It just needs to be better than the other player's.
So games should be about either solving puzzles or a reflex challenge? Ok... are you sure you're on the right forum?
 

vean

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And having variables like RNG means that the puzzle changes every time - even mid-combat.
If the RNG keeps changing the challenge then how can the game designer design it? So the "puzzle" then is always the same because the developer can't say which way the RNG will take it. That's garbage. You've just replaying the same thing over and over again.

Really, all this seems like butthurt from having your solution fall apart after an unlucky roll, nothing more.
I guess the argument's over and I've won then.
 

Athelas

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If you win or lose depending on a dice roll, then your strategy is weak.

Planning is important, but being able to quickly react to a bad roll and get the upper hand is an equally important test of skills. That's the point of randomness.
Lack of RNG does not necessarily mean lack of variability though. There's A.I. behaviour, there's the way various game mechanics can interact with each other, there's line-of-sight mechanics obscuring visibility and plenty of other things that can lead to unpredictable combat flow.

Though I'm not sure why this debate is hypothetical. Most RPG's *are* largely deterministic. Japanese RPG's make up the bulk of games in the genre and they typically eliminate variance in damage and hit chances are usually a 100% or close to it.

In recent years we've also had some deterministic offerings like Frozen Synapse, The Banner Saga and Invisible Inc.
 

Ninjerk

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And having variables like RNG means that the puzzle changes every time - even mid-combat.
If the RNG keeps changing the challenge then how can the game designer design it? So the "puzzle" then is always the same because the developer can't say which way the RNG will take it. That's garbage. You've just replaying the same thing over and over again.

Really, all this seems like butthurt from having your solution fall apart after an unlucky roll, nothing more.
I guess the argument's over and I've won then.
As expected, we have someone who does not understand probability and thinks that it's magic that makes him lose.
 

J1M

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Looks like Craig Stern made a new account to push his "randomness is bad" agenda. :lol:
 

J1M

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Looks like Craig Stern made a new account to push his "randomness is bad" agenda. :lol:
Nah, it's potatojohn pushing his "I'm a contrarian asshat" agenda.
Yeah, but I wouldn't say that because I don't know who that is and it isn't as funny.
 

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