Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

World of Whorecraft: Battle for Asseroth

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,626
"Deaths of Chromie" is some fun solo content that doesn't depend on your gear. (The boosts you need to finish it are time-gated, although you don't need all of them.)

To understand artifact weapons and other recent design decisions you need to understand who made those systems and what their objectives were. Unfortunately, the days of designers interested in creating games they themselves find fun to play are over. These days the designers are motivated by two things: a meta-game that they play instead of the actual game that involves trying to coerce player behavior, and reducing their current and future workload.

The latter motivation is pretty easy to understand. It's why you see the push for single-expansion features such as the garrison and artifact weapons. It's also why you see the removal of features like reforging (which complicate stat and item balance), and older features like crafting treated as an afterthought. The fact that your character will lose abilities and an entire talent tree when the next expansion comes out is viewed as a positive thing by the designers. It allows them to hand out the same goodies again instead of designing new ones.

Since the designers don't play the game for enjoyment, their motivations are perverted towards other ends. For example, it was observed that dungeons were only run a couple of times in WoD. Designers decided or were told that making players repeat dungeons dozens of times was desirable, so they created mythic+ and a currency with intentional hyperinflation (artifact power) to insist that players repeat the dungeons long after they stopped enjoying them. Internal verdict: successful design.

Ivory tower design theory/psych says gambling is fun and people respond positively to random rewards. This is how you end up with an abomination like the legendary system that they have been constantly patching since Legion's launch. It's a system to meet the designer goals of people using a variety of items instead of "best-in-slot" and the consumption of all max level content by all types of players (not just what people find fun). The repeated anemic attempts to 'fix' the player backlash by trying to convince people they weren't royally fucked by a random number generator just highlight how out of touch the designers are.

WoW needs two things next expansion: a combat shakeup (preferably via the introduction of a 4th role), and challenging content that doesn't have multiple easier difficulty settings.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,022
Location
Platypus Planet
The artifact weapon is a neat concept but the execution is quite poor. I'm on day 4 of being level 110 and I'm already just starting to feel logy. Leveling up alts is on the table, but I dunno if I'd bother leveling them up through Legions. Once you get the artifact weapon itself that's when all progression ends. Taking your character to level 110 doesn't actually change the game in much of a meaningful way. Grinding your weapon for percentual damage upgrades isn't exciting. I don't mind doing it now on my Warlock, but I can't see myself doing this again with another character.

Regardless, I read on the WoW forums that there are some evidence that point out that Artifact weapons will be gone come next expac. Blizzard dropped a cryptic hint that people with Artifact weapons can use them as transmog skins in the future. Whether or not this means that they will flat out remove them entirely and leave anyone who missed this mechanic in the dust is a mystery.
 

Hoaxmetal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
9,157
Can't wait to exchange my artifacts for green quest reward weapons in the next expansion's second zone.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,626
The artifact weapon is a neat concept but the execution is quite poor. I'm on day 4 of being level 110 and I'm already just starting to feel logy. Leveling up alts is on the table, but I dunno if I'd bother leveling them up through Legions. Once you get the artifact weapon itself that's when all progression ends. Taking your character to level 110 doesn't actually change the game in much of a meaningful way. Grinding your weapon for percentual damage upgrades isn't exciting. I don't mind doing it now on my Warlock, but I can't see myself doing this again with another character.

Regardless, I read on the WoW forums that there are some evidence that point out that Artifact weapons will be gone come next expac. Blizzard dropped a cryptic hint that people with Artifact weapons can use them as transmog skins in the future. Whether or not this means that they will flat out remove them entirely and leave anyone who missed this mechanic in the dust is a mystery.
There's nothing cryptic about it. Those items will be replaced. The AP currency grind may stick around in some other form, perhaps attached to a new item, but they aren't going to let you carry progression from one expansion to another.

They don't even like people carrying progression from one patch to another.
 
Self-Ejected

buru5

Very Grumpy Dragon
Patron
Joined
Apr 9, 2017
Messages
2,048
If anything, they'll make the artifact weapon a transmog and that will be the end of it.

The problems with Artifact Weapons have already been pointed out, so no need to go over that again. Next expansion I'd prefer a focus on more character trees and actually viable skill customization options instead of the cookie cutter bullshit they have now.
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
Jun 3, 2016
Messages
2,815
Location
inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
The artifact weapon is a neat concept but the execution is quite poor. I'm on day 4 of being level 110 and I'm already just starting to feel logy. Leveling up alts is on the table, but I dunno if I'd bother leveling them up through Legions. Once you get the artifact weapon itself that's when all progression ends. Taking your character to level 110 doesn't actually change the game in much of a meaningful way. Grinding your weapon for percentual damage upgrades isn't exciting. I don't mind doing it now on my Warlock, but I can't see myself doing this again with another character.

One of the cool things about the way the game is designed now is that you really don't need to do anything you don't enjoy.

If you don't want to grind your artifact or ilvl or whatever then don't do it. If you get sick of some stupid questline then just drop it. It's not like you're getting locked out of any content or anything.

The grind is there for the people who actually enjoy grinding (I know that sounds crazy but those people exist). The only reward you get from grinding is the grind itself and if you don't enjoy it then don't do it.

Anyway, if you haven't tried it yet I recommend soloing old raids or even grouping with a friend and running some old raids. Some of the bosses (especially from MoP) are even challenging for a lvl 110 to solo and the raids are really cool to see and you'll get some badass transmog and pets from the bosses.

Also try out pet battles or mount collecting or garrison building or xmog collecting etc.. There's tons of fun "side" stuff to do that people just ignore because they have some illusion of maxing out their character or whatever. But there's no point in maxing out your character because in a month they'll just release a new patch and reset the grind so you should only get into that if you enjoy that grind.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,022
Location
Platypus Planet
One of the cool things about the way the game is designed now is that you really don't need to do anything you don't enjoy.

If you don't want to grind your artifact or ilvl or whatever then don't do it. If you get sick of some stupid questline then just drop it. It's not like you're getting locked out of any content or anything.

This is quite true. I don't feel pressured to do any kind of massive grind to get to some enjoyable parts. Getting a suitable ilvl for raids is easy. I unlocked all the basic skills for my Artifact and now it takes millions to level up. Instead of spending a lot of time running after Artifact XP I'm just going to quietly level up my AK so I can level up faster when I want to. I'm mostly grinding my Artifact at this point so I can get the mounts. I feel suitably powerful with it otherwise.

Anyway, if you haven't tried it yet I recommend soloing old raids or even grouping with a friend and running some old raids. Some of the bosses (especially from MoP) are even challenging for a lvl 110 to solo and the raids are really cool to see and you'll get some badass transmog and pets from the bosses.

Also try out pet battles or mount collecting or garrison building or xmog collecting etc.. There's tons of fun "side" stuff to do that people just ignore because they have some illusion of maxing out their character or whatever. But there's no point in maxing out your character because in a month they'll just release a new patch and reset the grind so you should only get into that if you enjoy that grind.

Yup, this is what I'm doing now. I'm trying to get the Felheart set from MC for mogin cause I think it's still the dopest Warlock set. Collecting pets and mounts from ZG and then I'll move on to Cata, MoP and WoD content once I've looked into what drops I can get there mount and armor wise.
 

Wulfstand

Prophet
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
2,209
Currently I see the game as more of a matchmaking game in the veins of Counter Strike or Left for Dead. Literally i could spend hours just doing higher keystones with guildies on discord, with proper affixes +15 and higher are very fun, boss fights feel like you're in a mythic raid. A lot of Legion's dungeons are very good, quality wise, and the new one (seat of the triumvirate) looks gorgeous and fun too.
Now that I've all my legendaries, I feel like I don't have to do fuckall besides a weekly 15 key and heroic/mythic ToS in order to stay competitive. They should have made the game feel that way from the beginning. Calling it now, if they get rid of the rng behind itemization and legendary drops, next expac will be easily among the best.
There are currently 6 maps (of various sizes), with 3 more coming along in a month. Content galore.
I haven't played an alt in months, have been mainly sticking to Marksmanship throughout the whole expansion, and it was definitely worth it imo, very fun spec especially with legendaries that fit the encounter types. I've been playing a bit on a Cata private server lately too, just to see how the hunter played back then, and cata's marksmanship was/is super fun, I can now see why a lot of hunters have been bitching about the pruning that's been done on the spec(s).
As for artifacts, they'll 100% be gone next expac, and most of the core passives/abilities tied to them will just be baked into their individual specs, I can guarantee.
What I also hope is that the devs add another column of talents with esentially 3 of each spec's bis legendaries' effects. That and/or add a 4th row, I'd be down with that.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,022
Location
Platypus Planet
Leveling up alts feels a bit tiresome in Legions because you have to go through the same Artifact weapon tango each time. It was a lot of fun the first time, but not so much the second. Also, Elemental Shaman is so awful and shitty to play. Hope Death Knight isn't as crap since I plan on leveling that class next and I'd really like to have a tank class at max level.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,626
Leveling up alts feels a bit tiresome in Legions because you have to go through the same Artifact weapon tango each time. It was a lot of fun the first time, but not so much the second. Also, Elemental Shaman is so awful and shitty to play. Hope Death Knight isn't as crap since I plan on leveling that class next and I'd really like to have a tank class at max level.
Frost is okay. Blood has a lot of buttons that don't really do much.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,022
Location
Platypus Planet
My level 60 Blood Death Knight is a whole lot more complex to play than my level 110 Shaman with his Artifact weapon. This is ridiculous. Shaman is so fucking bad.

Edit: Sad to see that threat management in tanking is completely gone. Not exactly sure how tanking works now, but it seems that as long as you have the Tank role in the party, you shit out tons of threat just by doing any kind of damage. On the other hand it seems that having a tight rotation to improve your survi seems to be the name of the game now, which I'm fine with.
 
Last edited:

SerratedBiz

Arcane
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
4,143
Tanking has its rather unique level of difficulties that come from threat management in raids, ie dispersing boss attacks between you and the other tank. It's not rocket science but it makes boss fights a little more interesting, and DBM takes a lot of the effort away.
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
Jun 3, 2016
Messages
2,815
Location
inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
DBM takes about 90% of the effort away from every raid, period.

Yeah but you post an opinion like that on Blizz forums and you get downvoted to oblivion, called a troll, mass reported, and your forum account gets a time out.

Similar to posting that the game's too easy and the responses you get are like:

WELL Y HAVENT U BEAT MYTHIC +40 DUNGEONS AND ALL MYTHIC RAID BOSSES?!?!?!

LOL LOOK @ UR LOW ILVL OBV TROLL ID NEVER GROUP W/ U NOOB HAHA

HAHA IF SO EZ Y U DONT HAVE X/Y/Z ACHIEVE REPORTED!

It's like, yeah, i'm sure that the top of the top of the top of content is kinda tough but in order to even attempt that you need to spend a few hundred hours mindlessly grinding content that a bot could do.

So if 99.999% of the game is boring ez af grind, we can just ignore all that as long as ONE current raid is tough?
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,010
The other difficulty would be in trying for world/server first boss kills, but even on those the DBM is done weeks ago in beta anyways, so it's basically a matter of getting a guild of no-lifers to get leveled and geared enough to make the attempts before anyone else. You need good execution too, but it's nothing compared to trying to puzzle out the mechanics and strategies in the first place.
 

rashiakas

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
818
Pathfinder: Wrath
Blizzard designs mythic encounter with bossmods in mind. While I agree that most of the content in wow is piss easy, mythic raiding is definitively not.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,022
Location
Platypus Planet
I wish the normal pleb content was more challenging. TBC really was the best expac for having raider and casual content that was still challenging on all fronts.
 

Zetor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
1,706
Location
Budapest, Hungary
For all the shit I gave MOP earlier, they got that part right with challenge modes, brawler's guild and even proving grounds if you were pushing titles or records.

also, prenerf LFR Garalon whaaaaat
 

Wulfstand

Prophet
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
2,209
Heroic's difficult enough, and it's previous expansions' normal mode. Mythic+ can be as hard/easy as you want them to be.
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
Joined
Jun 3, 2016
Messages
2,815
Location
inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
Heroic's difficult enough, and it's previous expansions' normal mode. Mythic+ can be as hard/easy as you want them to be.

I've been saying that they need to get rid of gear progression and leveling entirely and balance 100% of the game around a hero's base stats.

But everyone hates me when I say that because I guess they feel proud of themselves when they get some RNG titanforge stat upgrade after smashing their heads against a wall for a few dozen hours.

I mean that argument may have been persuasive back in 2006 but these days progression is basically a meaningless time dump and it resets every 3 months.

You ever watch someone stream this game? Streamer sees someone with 30 lower ilvl than the max and thousands of people spam "LUL 880 NOB HA HA" as if no-lifing on WoW forever is some sort of moral virtue.

Well, that's the community for ya.
 
Self-Ejected

buru5

Very Grumpy Dragon
Patron
Joined
Apr 9, 2017
Messages
2,048
I've been saying that they need to get rid of gear progression and leveling entirely and balance 100% of the game around a hero's base stats.

But everyone hates me when I say that because I guess they feel proud of themselves when they get some RNG titanforge stat upgrade after smashing their heads against a wall for a few dozen hours.

I mean that argument may have been persuasive back in 2006 but these days progression is basically a meaningless time dump and it resets every 3 months.

You ever watch someone stream this game? Streamer sees someone with 30 lower ilvl than the max and thousands of people spam "LUL 880 NOB HA HA" as if no-lifing on WoW forever is some sort of moral virtue.

Well, that's the community for ya.
That would take out any semblance of customization left in this already lifeless game devoid of character, unless they added a robust skill tree system or something. Plus they'd have to add content that wasn't purely rng grinding, which means actual effort on the developer's end. Revamping the entire game? Adding fun content that has meaningful rewards without gear progression? Throw away their Pay to Level services? Never going to happen.

But I see your point, the game does devolve into "get these legendaries and this ilvl and then pick this one specific build to do well" for almost every class. They might as well do what you're suggesting, but that would remove the whole time sink aspect of the game and thus it would tank even more than it already has.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,022
Location
Platypus Planet
Heroic's difficult enough, and it's previous expansions' normal mode. Mythic+ can be as hard/easy as you want them to be.

I've been saying that they need to get rid of gear progression and leveling entirely and balance 100% of the game around a hero's base stats.

But everyone hates me when I say that because I guess they feel proud of themselves when they get some RNG titanforge stat upgrade after smashing their heads against a wall for a few dozen hours.

I mean that argument may have been persuasive back in 2006 but these days progression is basically a meaningless time dump and it resets every 3 months.

You ever watch someone stream this game? Streamer sees someone with 30 lower ilvl than the max and thousands of people spam "LUL 880 NOB HA HA" as if no-lifing on WoW forever is some sort of moral virtue.

Well, that's the community for ya.

I wouldn't mind it. Like I said before, or maybe I didn't, but the character progression from 100 to 110 is wholly irrelevant. You gain nothing in that time and the way level scaling works your character keeps getting more and more powerful as you accumulate weapon levels and better gear until you hit 110 whereupon your characters performance dips down hard, even vs mobs you used to blast easily, until you get a minimum of full dauntless gear, finish your class hall questline for the 3rd relic slot and get your artifact level into about 40. It's a bit irritating and has made me look less forward to leveling up to 110 with each alt I've leveled up. It doesn't feel rewarding to me to get to 110 as all the content I just did is going to get significantly more irritating until I wait out a few Legion assaults to get enough currency to get my feet back on the ground. Getting rid of this shit seems to be the best option. It's not like Blizzard will go back in time in terms of design and fix this problem so the best we can probably hope for is for them to amputate the problem.
 

Lurker47

Savant
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
721
Location
Texas
It's odd seeing how the balancing around new features in games (monks) tend to be a lot better though-out than a lot of the rebalances which are a mixed bag.

There are of course exceptions. Most importantly, Artifact Weapons, which are a pretty messy edition to the game though a step in the right direction. A system that'd reward players for doing literally anything (that's also not just exp) is a nice implementation and if it could make characters diverge into different paths based on what they do with their time, that'd be interesting to see. But this has so clearly pissed off the comp raiding scene that Blizzard has been pandering to for forever now and it's clearly not going to last long.

Making comp players feel obligated to grind their asses off isn't exactly a fair trade-off for the minor uniqueness the system gives to casual players (reminds me of the old talent system with all the +2% to x's- a system equally as underwhelming but now with zero choice as well). They should try to add more RP in their RPG but not at the expense of a huge sub-demographic. Really, what I'm trying to say is that Blizzard needs to completely revamp the game to make your character growth feel like anything more than their class. Because at this point, their steadfast focus on the endgame content has begun to eat at the game's life expectancy and quality.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,022
Location
Platypus Planet
It's not just hardcore people that suffer but people like me who just wanna play casually with multiple alts. It's a huge pain in the asshole to play with a different spec because you have to get the weapon, grind XP for it, do quests to unlock its full potential and get three item drops to bring up its effectiveness. And then you need to repeat this as many times as there are specs per class that you wanna play. I miss the time when having a weapon or weapon + off hand drop was enough.

On a happier note I finally unlocked flying in the Broken Isles.
 

Lurker47

Savant
Joined
Jul 30, 2017
Messages
721
Location
Texas
It's not just hardcore people that suffer but people like me who just wanna play casually with multiple alts. It's a huge pain in the asshole to play with a different spec because you have to get the weapon, grind XP for it, do quests to unlock its full potential and get three item drops to bring up its effectiveness. And then you need to repeat this as many times as there are specs per class that you wanna play. I miss the time when having a weapon or weapon + off hand drop was enough.

On a happier note I finally unlocked flying in the Broken Isles.
I forgot to mention that but that too, yeah. Offspeccing is a weird-ass balancing concept to me and I kind of wish the stat/item management of it was streamlined so it could truly be "everyone can basically jump into these stock roles/rotations" though also alongside a reworked skill tree so there's actual uniqueness and repeatability in your character class.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom