What old (pre-1995) cRPGs stand the test of time?

[Sigourn]

Not saying I agree, but in an abstract sense you can also say that "focusing too much on creating better graphics for the RPG can hurt the other areas of the RPG".

Of course you could. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking solely about graphics, outside of the context of the industr.

Also, better is subjective, so one man's better is actually another man's worse in this case.

In this case, it isn't. "Better" implies better, nothing more. Take your favorite game, give it better graphics (according to what you consider to be "better"), and it will look better.

I'm not about to say that Fallout having "better" graphics means "first person Fallout game". You can still keep the style of the game while giving it better graphics, unless by style one understands "aesthetic" as opposed to "gameplay".

For example, we can all agree that the aesthetic of New Vegas is realism. And as such, better graphics will be graphics that make the game look more realistic. Other games purposely use sprite art, in which case there's not much room for "better" graphics (unless we talk about more complex sprite art).

our dear, dear Lucas is not here to learn. he is here to troll.

I'm sorry that you feel that way old man.

I bring you the best example that graphics make the difference: if Skyrim had Morrowind's graphics, no one would play it, because the game sucks compared to Morrowind, but the graphics add some sparkle that Morrowind sadly doesn't have. Graphics can make the most boring walk through a road actually fun.

 

[aweigh]

i wish i could stab you.

 

[Mozg]

A lot of old games make up for graphics problems by being blazing fast to play. M&M 3-5 play as fast as roguelikes. Gold Box games take seconds to autobattle away a trash fight. If you play M&M or Dungeon Crawl at the speed of thought for a few days and then try to play a Bioware game you will be clawing at your mouse everytime the game takes 2-3 seconds to play a shopkeeper's voice clip or go through a superfluous animation like opening a chest. Or God forbid waiting for your party to walk across the map after clicking in a RTw/P game.

 

[octavius]

A lot of old games make up for graphics problems by being blazing fast to play. M&M 3-5 play as fast as roguelikes. Gold Box games take seconds to autobattle away a trash fight. If you play M&M or Dungeon Crawl at the speed of thought for a few days and then try to play a Bioware game you will be clawing at your mouse everytime the game takes 2-3 seconds to play a shopkeeper's voice clip or go through a superfluous animation like opening a chest. Or God forbid waiting for your party to walk across the map after clicking in a RTw/P game.

Good point.
Even old HoMM 2 suffers a bit from this, with the opening fanfare of each battle, and the Luck and extra attack animations.

 

[Jason Liang]

Graphics can obviously add or detract to your enjoyment of any game, rpgs included.

I enjoyed very much AoD's graphics, especially the death animations. And shooting people in the face with a longbow.

Both Fallout and Arcanum's animations are terrible.

Good animation and good character design should be recognized and valued. HoMM2 and HoMM3 did not become classics by gameplay alone. The animators and character designers deserve a ton of credit for those games.

Infinity Engine real time with pause is the same gameplay as Shadow Sorcerer. If you take away Baldur's Gate's graphics, you'd have an RPG that would tank as badly as Shadow Sorcerer did.

 

[octavius]

Graphics is much more than just the resolution and polygon count. The style is just as important. Which is why the DOS and Apple version of Wizardry 1 have better graphics than the Final Fantasy games.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

At this point my brain isn't wired to recognize animations, let alone good ones vs. bad ones. Maybe that's from playing a bunch of Avernum lately. Who knows.

I guess it's like this. I can't play an RPG that has gameplay that is uninteresting to me no matter how amazing the graphics are. But I could play a stick figure RPG if it has the right gameplay.

 

[aweigh]

what fluent said (and many, many others) have said: graphics are nice, but if the game uh-SUXX, then it doesn't matter because graphics don't do anything for RPGs.

take a game that DOESN'T suck, such as AoD, however if i am forced to watch the same long-ass animations over and over the entire game I would deduct points from its review score.

and on this, i am not alone! example: the huge outcry for animation speed sliders for that game! so it is not some sort of grognard thing, and btw, i fucking hate that word. I prefer to be called a tr00 RPGer, thank you very fucking much.

why did people get tired of AoD's lovely, amazing, technical feats of animations? BECAUSE GRAPHICS HAVE JACK SHIT TO DO WITH GAMEPLAY.

 

[Sigourn]

what fluent said (and many, many others) have said: graphics are nice, but if the game uh-SUXX, then it doesn't matter because graphics don't do anything for RPGs.

His opinion doesn't invalidate mine. On the contrary, my opinon includes that of him: that some people can't simply forget about graphics, and others can. Because of this, some people find graphics important when it comes to judging how fun a game is.

 

[aweigh]

your ability to continue posting doesn't invalidate your missing chromosome.

 

[Sigourn]

your ability to continue posting doesn't invalidate your missing chromosome.

Your ability to post doesn't invalidate your lack of common sense.

 

[aweigh]

dude, you made this thread basically, in essence, asking for RPG recommendations.

"what rpgs..." blah blah.

you have had EIGHT FUCKING PAGES of not only EXCELLENT recommendations but also an unbelievable, for codex standards, outpouring of goodwill with people both lecturing you about the history of rpgs AND taking time out of their day to also psuedo-review some of the RPGs recommended.

what has been your reaction? to shit on everything people have recommended and give the most asinine, retarded troll-reasons for why their recommendation sucks.

- rogue-likes are unplayable because they use letters instead of "graphics". (btw, ASCII = graphics).
- old games are all shit and ppl who say old games are good are trying to perpetrate some sort of Illuminati agenda in convincing the world they should play them.
- old game mechanics are all too primitive and simple to enjoy.
- saying over and over that if a game doesn't have good enough graphics then it is "incomplete".

etc, etc.

dude, you have your game recs.

FUCK OFF

 

[Sigourn]

dude, you made this thread basically, in essence, asking for RPG recommendations.

"what rpgs..." blah blah.

you have had EIGHT FUCKING PAGES of not only EXCELLENT recommendations but also an unbelievable, for codex standards, outpouring of goodwill with people both lecturing you about the history of rpgs AND taking time out of their day to also psuedo-review some of the RPGs recommended.

what has been your reaction? to shit on everything people have recommended and give the most asinine, retarded troll-reasons for why their recommendation sucks.

This hasn't been the case with 95% of the games people have mentioned, and guess what: those games have nice looking graphics. The remainder 5% is either too obscure, very few people can actually vouch for their quality, and those games generally belong to an era where the games simply weren't "complex" and the gameplay usually revolves around doing the same repetitive tasks over and over again.

Also, get that sand out of your vagina, dude.

 

[deuxhero]

A big issue with many older games for me are interfaces (bad UIs on some modern games notwithstanding).
I can stand even older 3D graphics (although obviously 2D is preferable there), but many older UIs are detrimental to the fun for me.

Bad and unremapable control schemes are even worse.

You can setup Dosbox to swap the functionality of keys (D registers as right arrow) and TES1 is far more playable with this (there's even an option to make things work normally when holding some key so you can enter text normally), but this doesn't fix absolutely retarded stuff like Ultima's "every key does something" scheme.

 

[pippin]

but this doesn't fix absolutely retarded stuff like Ultima's "every key does something" scheme.

 

[aweigh]

you can also use a program called AutoHotkey which allows you to remap any keyboard key to any other device function.

for example i play a lot of japanese-developed Wizardry clones, (such as the recent Stranger of Sword City), and that game does not allow remapping keyboard keys. (japs...).

with AutoHotkey you can make a simple script which allows you to specify that it should only activate when a specific software is active (in this case the game) and you can set one key to equal another one.

Example of an AHK script:

LEFT::A

SPACEBAR:: MB6 (great for switching RTwP game's pausing key to normally inaccessible keys like your gaming mouse's key #6, which most games won't recognize inside the options menu)

RIGHT:: D

(no space is involved after the :: but this posting shit automatically transforms them into emoticons)

etc. You can make one that only triggers when the DosBox executable launches. it is a FANTASTIC piece of software.

You can do waaaaaaaaaaay more with its simple script "language" than merely remapping keyboard keys, btw. You can do stuff like make, for example, SPACEBAR be "rapid fire", or make a key like TAB toggable.

- I use an AHK script to make Infinity Engine game's object highlight key toggable.
- I have another AHK script which makes CONTROL + ALT + UP/DOWN raise or lower the Windows volume, and it works inside full-screen applications.

 

[deuxhero]

but this doesn't fix absolutely retarded stuff like Ultima's "every key does something" scheme.

Half of them could be condensed into other commands with no issues or minimal rework.

Separate keys to go up and down stairs? You could either ask the player which way they want to go, or replace the handful of stairs that go up and down with adjacent up and down stairs with no issue.
Every spell has a separate key prompt in the cast menu? I remember you had mix the regents beforehand so I have no idea why they couldn't just have a menu.

 

[aweigh]

deuxhero

read my post, it adresses your first issue with control mapping.

however i 100% agree with unnecessary hotkey bloat. I'm the kind of guy who prefers a simple list-type inventory over having to play Tetris inside my fucking inventory in order fit a fucking broadsword.

remember devs: K.I.S.S. !!

EDIT: btw, with AHK you can make a script (or rather, you can Google for it and replace the example keys with the ones you want to use)-- you can make a script that makes the "go up stairs key" and the "go down stairs key" remapped to 1 single key.

when you press said key it will perform both commands. In order to avoid the chance of them cancelling each other out, you can make it first execute the "go down" key, and half-a-second later, perform the "go up" key.

problem solved!

 

[deuxhero]

I know you can do that, but it doesn't work all the time.

 

[dagrims]

That's not RPG mechanics. This is:

I hardly even noticed any effect from gaining levels in Ishars. Or from going from sword tagged +10 to sword tagged +12. Those respawning bandits you grind half the Ishar 3 still take the same amount of hits to kill.

Pardon my ignorance, but what game is this?

 

[aweigh]

right click on image

click where it says "search google for this image"

result: "Balance of the Planets"

 

[pippin]

right click on image

click where it says "search google for this image"

result: "Balance of the Planets"

Mine says "playhouse strippoker"

 

[mondblut]

right click on image

click where it says "search google for this image"

result: "Balance of the Planets"

Lamers

Right click on image

Fucking read the url saying twilight-2000-dos-screenshot

 

[mondblut]

Pardon my ignorance, but what game is this?

Twilight 2000.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

That said, beautiful graphics are great, too. But like the famous saying goes: "A man should be able to play a story RPG, a gameplay RPG, a turn-based RPG, an action RPG, a grid-based blobber RPG, an RPG from the '80s, an RPG from the '90s, a modern RPG, a visual novel RPG, a JRPG, a graphically impressive for its time RPG..etc." Err, maybe it's just me that says that.

"visual novel RPG"?