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What old (pre-1995) cRPGs stand the test of time?

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aweigh

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Dark heart even utilizes WASD for movement. talk about ahead of its time. (yes i know Wiz used WASD as well).

kinda makes you wonder why most devs switched to retarded arrow keys for movement in the 90s/etc.

and yeah, dark heart of uurkul has some of the best writing in any rpg i ever played. 100% recommended, and doctor sabatsu p. won this thread by mentioning it.
 

Fowyr

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kinda makes you wonder why most devs switched to retarded arrow keys for movement in the 90s/etc.
Because without mouse it was not a big deal, aslo many people used numpad arrows.
Right hand on the arrows - left one presses key commands.
I'm playing Albion right now using such method.
 

Lady_Error

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aweigh If you didn't like Wizardry 8, you probably won't like Wizards & Warriors either. Both are pretty similar with free movement and turn-based combat. W&W could have been a great game, but unfortunetaly it is kind of uninspired and formulaic in my opinion, at least when compared to Wizardry 6 and 7. One major point of decline in W&W were the towns which were just a 2D screen, so you could not walk in them.
 

V_K

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While Wizards&Warriors are rather formulaic in terms of setting and story, it's anything but in terms of gameplay. At least I can't name another game that combines some Wizardry aspects (party-based blobber, dungeon crawling) with some Ultima aspects (mostly seamless open world, highly interactive environments), though admittedly they don't fit all that well together (especially given the limited 3D technology of the time). I would go as far as to say that I enjoyed it more than Wiz8 though because of better level design (its dungeons are some of the best dugeons in any RPG ever), more and better puzzles, and the fact that battles didn't take forever to finish. Although, I suspect, for these very reasons aweigh would enjoy it even less than Wiz8.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

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aweigh If you didn't like Wizardry 8, you probably won't like Wizards & Warriors either. Both are pretty similar with free movement and turn-based combat. W&W could have been a great game, but unfortunetaly it is kind of uninspired and formulaic in my opinion, at least when compared to Wizardry 6 and 7. One major point of decline in W&W were the towns which were just a 2D screen, so you could not walk in them.

Few games pull off towns or settlements properly. I like the idea of the concentration of gameplay being elsewhere.
 

Deleted Member 16721

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Wizardry is typically just a 2D screen for towns, though, so that's not really a big change. W&W does have awesome dungeons, and yes, tons of world interactivity. THere are switches, levers, locks, elevator platforms, swimming sections, boat sections, you can ride a horse, there's lots of unique puzzles in the dungeons and items to pick up, often puzzles need a special item, etc. I remember a flame pit in one dungeon that I spent an hour if not more trying to figure out how to get past. Turns out there were several ways to do it, some of them really clever that I didn't realize were possible. Let's just say you can even do phsyics-type things in the puzzles to solve them. I think overall the game is a great one but definitely different than Wizardry. Don't go in expecting the same type of RPG and I think you'll enjoy it for the elements I mentioned.
 

Serus

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Of all metioned pre-1995 i would recommend two as still very playable and fun (not that my recommendations are worth much - my experiance with anything older than ~1992 in crpg genre is very limited). And i know those 2 were mentioned many times and are well known but i feel like writing something a this moment:

Darklands (1992)
- many brilliant ideas and game systems, weaker execution but still very fun to play today (i did it for the first time in the 2000s when the game was already dated as fuck by technical standards and had a blast). Sadly this sub-type of crpg was mostly abandoned (an actual historical setting mixed with fantasy elements that are included in a smart way in the mechanics - like alchemy/prayers in place of magic, semi-realistic combat mechanics, heavy reliance on text). A few indie game devs claimed to be influenced by Darklands in last few years (SoTS devs, i think Vince mentioned it too in context of AoD) but not a single game trying to copy or improve the whole formula was ever made to my knoweldge. Battle Brothers are (somewhat surprisingly to me) the closest thing you will get*.

Betrayal at Krondor (1993) - this one is actually so modern-(ish) to be in many ways "popamole" even considering its age. Only 3 characters in a party, simple (but mostly fun and not overdone) combat, very simple character system (all you can influence,iirc, is which skills have priority when learnt), no party building - only pre-made characters that change from chapter to chapter without player input. All the above says: DECLINE (in 1993!). On the other hand it has a semi-interesting story (possibly one of the few early crpg that can be enjoyed by a storyfag), solid writing and good exploration + world building. Overall, a game is fun to play today even by people not strongly into old stuff. Ok, i admit, you have to be able to live with low-res photos of guys in wigs as your party member's avatars but otherwise - very easy to get in.


*And yes - "historical" crpgs are sort of my favourite subject - sadly there are literally(!) not enough of those to fill a "TOP 5" list as long as you want only pure CRPG and not hybrids (strategy with rpg elements like Crusader Kings series, action/rpg like some add ons and mods for Mount & Blade, an obscure roguelike or two - UnReal comes to mind, etc...). And i am not even kidding (sad).
 
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MF

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On the other hand it has a semi-interesting story (possibly one of the few early crpg that can be enjoyed by a storyfag), solid writing and good exploration + world building. Overall, a game is fun to play today even by people not strongly into old stuff.

Midkemia as a setting is love it or hate it (I love it personally, it's a guilty pleasure). The story is meh. But it easily has the best writing in any CRPG ever. Solid writing is an understatement. Give Neal some more credit, the stuff he wrote reads better than Feist's novelization. Oh, and the soundtrack is nothing short of stellar.



I'd like to add the original Darghul to the list. It's still fun to play with the crisp ultima-style graphics, a steady pace and simple gameplay. It also taught me German.
 

Sigourn

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Since I have some free time before going to bed, what would you guys say are the best dungeon crawlers ever made? For the purpose of this question, let's remove Wizardry and M&M, as well as Dungeon Master (obviously) and Legend of Grimrock (as I plan to play all of those).

So far I've heard of many games:

- Eye of the Beholder series
- Ravenloft series
- Ishar series
- Menzoberranzan
- Anvil of Dawn
- Stonekeep
- World of Aden: Thunderscape
- Black Crypt
- Dungeon Hack
- Escape From Hell
- Bloodwych
- Hexx: Heresy of the Wizard

What are the best dungeon crawlers from this list, and why? I wish I could change the thread title to "post an RPG and the Codex gives their opinion on it", because at this moment it's basically what I am using it for.
 

octavius

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Black Crypt is the best on that of the ones I've played. My favourite real time blobber after Dungeon Master and Chaos Strikes Back, and Raven Software's first game. You'll need an Amiga emulator for it, though.

I liked Eye of the Beholder back in the days, but replaying it the AD&D systems felt just too shoehorned into the FPP real time engine.

Anvil of Dawn is pretty good, but rather dumbed down with only one character, and no free movement 3 years after Ultima Underworld.

Rest of the games are meh, or look and sound meh.
 
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aweigh

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Lady Error

Wiz 8, believe it or not, (remember that I am a johnny-come-lately to 'crawlers), was my very first ever "dungeon crawler" !

I played it on release and I liked it well enough, but at that time in my life I preferred games similar to the type of RPGs coming out in early 2000s alongside Wiz 8, such as... Baldur's Gate and all that jazz.

Fast-foward to almost exactly 15 years later, and two things happened:

- First, I read through Crooked Bee's unbelievably amazing Let's Play thread about Wizardry 4. She wrote about the game so beautifully I began looking at the pictures, and imagining myself inside the dungeons that were described within; and the atmosphere! Wow, it put to shame modern RPGs.

- And then, secondly, I was browsing RPGWatch and guess what? None fucking other than fluent had that very published on the Watch's front-page his glowing review of Elminage: Gothic, which, obviously, was therein described many times as a Wizardry "classic" made for the future generations.

After experiencing the mind-melting life-journey that was Bee's Wizardry 4 LP, I honestly did not feel like actually playing it, but the dim memory of Wizardry 8, and the fact I nejoyed it more than a lot of other RPGs that Codexers here place above in superiorty; this resurfaced: I remembered that I had actually once before, 15 years earlier, already played a Wizardry game. It had an 8 in its title.

And now I had just read the best LP of all time concerning another Wizardry, this one with a 4 in its title, and the final cog in the machinery became fluent's well done review of E: Gothic. I decided that it would be my first "true" turn-based Dungeon Crawler.

EDIT: And the funny thing is, now that I actually know... a LOT, about dungeon crawlers, I have in recent times/years revisited Wizardry 8 and I now consider it one of my favorite Western CRPGS. I have learned to appreciate a good RPG/game for what it *is*, and not what I want it to be.

Obviosuly, it is not "true Wizardry", but is it a good RPG? It is AMAZINGLY good as an RPG. MUCH better than Bradleys weak attempts in the series with titles Wizardry 6 and 7.

Thank god Wiz 8 studio told Bradley to go fuck himself before making the game :D
 

Zboj Lamignat

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If you didn't like Wizardry 8, you probably won't like Wizards & Warriors either. Both are pretty similar with free movement and turn-based combat.
Except that W&W combat is not really like Wiz8 and is not turn-based? Those threads where people give opinions about games they didn't even try much or at all are a bit of a boner killer.
 

Deleted Member 16721

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Except that W&W combat is not really like Wiz8 and is not turn-based? Those threads where people give opinions about games they didn't even try much or at all are a bit of a boner killer.

Wizards & Warrior's combat isn't exactly like Wizardry 8, but it is turn-based.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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No, it's not, it's a weird mix of RT blob combat with some RTWP elements like how spell casting works.
 

Deleted Member 16721

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No, it's not, it's a weird mix of RT blob combat with some RTWP elements like how spell casting works.

Weird, I don't remember that. Loaded up the game just now and it is real-time. Huh. I guess when you cast a spell it pauses until you cast it.
 

V_K

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with some RTWP elements like how spell casting works
Not just the spell casting. Basically, when you enter combat the game hits an autopause until one of 3 things happens: 1) All of your characters have acted and are on cooldowns; 2) You start moving; 3) You open inventory or spellbook. Once one of your characters is ready to act (and you're not moving or browsing inventory), it's autopaused again. Essentially, it's kinda like roguelike-style turn based system only with a party. Personally, I think it works a lot better than either Wiz8 or M&M6.
 

Deleted Member 16721

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Not just the spell casting. Basically, when you enter combat the game hits an autopause until one of 3 things happens: 1) All of your characters have acted and are on cooldowns; 2) You start moving; 3) You open inventory or spellbook. Once one of your characters is ready to act (and you're not moving or browsing inventory), it's autopaused again. Essentially, it's kinda like roguelike-style turn based system only with a party. Personally, I think it works a lot better than either Wiz8 or M&M6.

I knew I remember some weird turn-based-style aspect to it, hah. But yeah, I remember enjoying the system quite a bit, too. The character development, in particular getting stronger spells, was very satisfying, as was hitting enemies with them. :)
 

Serus

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Lady Error

Obviosuly, it is not "true Wizardry", but is it a good RPG? It is AMAZINGLY good as an RPG. MUCH better than Bradleys weak attempts in the series with titles Wizardry 6 and 7.

Thank god Wiz 8 studio told Bradley to go fuck himself before making the game :D

No it is not "AMAZINGLY good". "Good" - i tend to agree, but certainly not "amazingly". Very clearly to me Wizardry 7 (interface issues aside, anyway both games have some problems in this area) is the superior game.
Wizardry 8 has many major flaws - and the really big one (i am really surprised that You Aweigh of all people ignore it) is total lack of difficulty once you are past the early game. The feared Arnika Road is the peak of difficulty, after that it goes down quickly and past level 10 it becomes a joke. At least Wizardry 7 throws at you some challenges as the game progresses if you don't make a party of 6x "knows every skill and spell" guys. And even if you do - if an enemy hits you, you will still feel it. In W8 late game enemies tickle you instead of hitting.
In W8 you get immune to almost anything enemies throw at you by mid-game. Magic ? Pfff... just cast high level anti-magic protection spells (magic screen off combat and the others in 1st round) and all your party memebers will have 100 or close to 100 all res, enemies can barely do a few points of damage past this and they almost never land any status effects. Melee - is a joke too past early game, the only situation where a party memeber dies is when your pure casters - mages/psionics/alchemists/bishops are tageted - and they aren't most of the time sitting safely behind fighters/rogues/samurais/etc...

I wont even mention the dungeons - sure in Wizardry 8 some are are nicely designed using 3D with proper use of height but the puzzles in them ? mostly a joke again. Traps - what traps ?

The main storyline then ? Ok so you learn quickly you need to collect the 3 great artifacts. Sounds awfully ambitious for a party of no-ones, after all they are the most powerful artifacts in the universe used to create the universe itself but ok, story aside you expect it to be hard... right ? To be forced to defeat some devious dungeons and powerful boses. Let's see:
Razuka Boss: "hey guys, i have this Astral Dominae thingy for you for a few bucks, and if you don't want to pay i'm standing practically alone here !",
Mooks: "Yes, we have one of those, want to look at it ? Perhaps touch it ? Or maybe swap it for the fake artifact Dark Savant just left you for no fucking reason ? Or maybe you want to kill a few mooks to take it by force, its your choice !"
Only Destinae Dominus requires a bit of what i described and what should be expected (minus challenging boss).
Compare to W7 where you at least need to explore several (more challenging) dungeons and if you are too slow chase after a NPC who took the map first... And those are only some "maps" with clues not artifacts sought after everyone in the universe.

Did i mention the fact that the game drowns you with hundreds if not thousands of consumables ? And if this is not enough you can make thousands in gold in a few minutes and buy all consumables in the world. I never use any expect a few healing/status removing potions early in game, there is no need but thanks to all those redundant consumables you can easily buy every good item that is for sale in the game... if this isn't a bad design i'm not sure what is.

Sure W8 has some things done better - mostly the character system fucked up in W7 if you want to use its weakness to the maximum is in W8 slightly more solid. On the other hand it is also easily abused because of its "skills grow when used" nature. So only a small advantage here. Other good things are the added combat options like more detailed party positioning inside the blob, certainly an interesting evolution of blobber formula (evolution that sadly never happened). The gameplay itself however ? The winner is clear in my opinion.

I think You are simply prejudiced against Wizardry 6 and 7 because they are not Wizardry 1, 2, 3 or 5 - and you love those and find them superior. They might be, i never got into older Wizardries (and i need to at some point), they might be better but this is W6~7 vs W8 we are talking about not versus Wizardry 1 to 5.

TL,DR:
Wizardry 7 > Wizardry 8

To be perfectly clear and not cause butthurt:
I like W8 - i wouldn't be playing it for the 2nd time if i didn't. I won't finish it (again) because going past dozens of Rapax warriors and casters who occasionally tickle you with their mighty blows/spells of ~10 damage against 150hp guys is too tediosu... :( Otherwise a good game, i like the weird mix of SF/fantasy, the silly creatures/races, the world, hell even the low polygon graphics are pretty. Exploration is fun. I like the character building part most - just sad it is not really needed because the game doesn't challenge your party builds enough past early game.
 
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V_K

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Since I have some free time before going to bed, what would you guys say are the best dungeon crawlers ever made? For the purpose of this question, let's remove Wizardry and M&M, as well as Dungeon Master (obviously) and Legend of Grimrock (as I plan to play all of those).

So far I've heard of many games:

- Eye of the Beholder series
- Ravenloft series
- Ishar series
- Menzoberranzan
- Anvil of Dawn
- Stonekeep
- World of Aden: Thunderscape
- Black Crypt
- Dungeon Hack
- Escape From Hell
- Bloodwych
- Hexx: Heresy of the Wizard

What are the best dungeon crawlers from this list, and why? I wish I could change the thread title to "post an RPG and the Codex gives their opinion on it", because at this moment it's basically what I am using it for.
The list is missing Legacy: Realm of Terror, though it's more of a haunted mansion crawler. Still, all the genre hallmarks, such as tight resource management and environmental puzzles are in. Also, since it's a horror game, it's approach to combat is not to kill everything that moves but rather escape with your life, which is refreshing. Quite possibly one of the hardest and best crawlers ever made, on par with Chaos Strikes Back.
Also, since Escape from Hell is on the list, I guess you don't mean strictly first-person dungeon crawlers. If so, be sure to check DarkSpyre (the old DOS one, not the console one, note spelling) and The Summoning. They both play as kind of top-down single-character Dungeon Master clones, only DarkSpyre adds to that certain roguelike elements (randomized levels, limited saving), while The Summoning adds NPCs and quests. Then there is the Trazere duology (Four Crystals of Trazere and Son of the Empire) - those have a strategic world map layer, but 95% of the gameplay still happens in huge dungeons which are very nicely designed. Also, these games have one of the best and most original magic systems in RPGs.
 

mondblut

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Since I have some free time before going to bed, what would you guys say are the best dungeon crawlers ever made? For the purpose of this question, let's remove Wizardry and M&M, as well as Dungeon Master (obviously) and Legend of Grimrock (as I plan to play all of those).

So far I've heard of many games:

- Eye of the Beholder series
- Ravenloft series
- Ishar series
- Menzoberranzan
- Anvil of Dawn
- Stonekeep
- World of Aden: Thunderscape
- Black Crypt
- Dungeon Hack
- Escape From Hell
- Bloodwych
- Hexx: Heresy of the Wizard

What are the best dungeon crawlers from this list, and why? I wish I could change the thread title to "post an RPG and the Codex gives their opinion on it", because at this moment it's basically what I am using it for.

Ravenloft for mood, Ishar for eye-candy, Thunderscape for not being a realtime retardofest.
 

Lady_Error

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Since I have some free time before going to bed, what would you guys say are the best dungeon crawlers ever made? For the purpose of this question, let's remove Wizardry and M&M, as well as Dungeon Master (obviously) and Legend of Grimrock (as I plan to play all of those).

So far I've heard of many games:

- Eye of the Beholder series
- Ravenloft series
- Ishar series
- Menzoberranzan
- Anvil of Dawn
- Stonekeep
- World of Aden: Thunderscape
- Black Crypt
- Dungeon Hack
- Escape From Hell
- Bloodwych
- Hexx: Heresy of the Wizard

What are the best dungeon crawlers from this list, and why? I wish I could change the thread title to "post an RPG and the Codex gives their opinion on it", because at this moment it's basically what I am using it for.

Personally, out of those I enjoyed Eye of the Beholder 2 and Stonekeep the most. Land of Lore 1 is also a good blobber.

Much better than any of these is Realms of Arkania 2, which is a blobber in exploration and isometric in fights.
 

Sigourn

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So it's almost been a month and I appreciate every one of your contrbutions. Of all games mentioned here, I think I left about 10 out of my list. You can access that said list through my signature.

That said: I really want to give the roguelike genre another try, but I need your help. Which ones are roguelikes that you think are very, very awesome, or that do really unique things? I was thinking along the lines of NetHack, for example, and UnReal World, too. For reference, the following games are already on my list, of which I cleared all Roguelikes.

- FTL: Faster than Light
- Tales of Maj'Eyal (TOME)
- Ancient Domains of Mystery (ADOM)
 

Deleted Member 16721

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ADOM or Nethack. 2 killer roguelikes with tons of depth.
 

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