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What did New Vegas DO WRONG? / Would isometric New Vegas with finished content be GOAT?

Trashos

Arcane
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3,413
Yeah I completely forgot about the Attribute upgrades. Oh well, whatever, it's not I haven't danced this tango before. I did notice that Sawyer mod apparently changes weight formula because even with my herculean STR of 10 I can only carry a pathetic amount.

I approve :D

BTW, does Dead Money's city area count as "outdoors" for purposes of that Trait which gives you bonuses if you're outside, and additionally inside OWB and DM is it daytime or night-time (for same purposes; the time-of-day trait).

I've never used those before and I kinda wanna make a really crazy build, but if the game doesn't really even react to those traits (i.e. they are de-facto, inarguable wastes of a pick with zero benefits), then I won't bother.

I considered Four Eyes... does the +1 PER from Four Eyes stack on top of 10 PER if you have it?

I haven't used the day/night & inside/outside perks, so I can't comment. Ilitarist answered for the 10 cap in SPECIAL. With 4-eyes, be mindful that your PE is going to drop by 1 point for purposes of perk requirements, while the glasses bonus to PE does not count towards such requirements. This is only important if you are planning to get perks that have PE requirements.

For example, I start with PE 6, take 4-eyes so my PE drops to 5, and then wear glasses and a hat for +3 PE. My final PE is 8, which later becomes 10 with Lucky Shades and the PE implant. However, when I try to get a perk with a PE requirement (eg, Better Criticals has a requirement of 6), I can't take it until I get the implant, because the game considers my base PE to be 5.
 
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aweigh

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Trashos

What simple yet logical tweaks would you make to F:NV's itemization, and other easily-editable things like damage values and VATS values and stuff like that? I have nothing to do till mid-Jan when I leave so I want to spend the following weeks doing something absolutely autistic that only myself and MAYBE one or two other people will even bother "using", and it dawned on me: Mod/tweak every single adjustable numerical value possible in FNV, on NPCs, on Factions, on Checks, on Gear/Loot/Items!

I ride the Spectrum like the Silver Surfer rides the cosmic waves, so I will do it.

Aside from the stuff I mentioned previously: reducing by 25% flat substraction any/all shots to the HEAD while in VATS (this is very easy to do, takes less than 2 minutes). Why? Make "go for crits to thead" slightly less powerful (i mean you can 95% enemy heads by like, level 10, jesus christ), and thus...

...opening a viable choice in instead going for arms/legs by making cripple effect 2x or more pronounced: default leg-crippling slows enemy down by 33 %, which as you know is barely noticeable in-game especially when you have a swarm of fuckers on you, and to top it off arm/leg crippling is kind of hard to accomplish because Obsidian gave the appendages a surprisingly high amount of HP:

- reduce arm/leg HP by half
- increase crippled leg debuff to 75%, make those fuckers feel them crippling legs all crippled and shit
- increase the value which controls the chance % of whether or not arm-crippling will make enemy drop their weapons to 100%

- ...but balance that by making VATS shots to arms receive a 50% penalty to accuracy, flat value. Probably give a 25% penalty to VATS-targeting legs then.

Reduced backpedal speed is already in Sawyer mod which I found surprisingly insightly from Sawyer, didn't think he was that smart, so no need for that. Other than that, what else could one tweak? Obvious things like raising explosive damage, I guess, but on that account I think increasing their radius instead is much better, and the clincher that will make Explosives 100% legit is:

- make Explosives have 75% chance to cripple whatever parts of enemy it hits (frankly I wanna make it 100%).

This way the grenade/mine will do the vanilla damage, but its radius will be much bigger (making it more dangerous to the player as well) and whoever it hits they're gonna come out with arms/legs crippled, with the above debuffs.

Any thoughts/ideas?

Oh, I think halving all Companion's Attributes by 50% across the board would also be a good tweak. They are simply too good in default game and since there is no way to fix the main issue companions bring to this game:

- that enemies always/most-of-the time will focus their attentions on your Companion instead of you the player, thus making a lot of FNV's combat somewhat trivial is you take this into account and abuse it.

I don't know how one could possibly change enemy AI enough to not do that, and since after 6 years of game being out there still isn't an Enemy AI mod which does this... I think it's safe to say at this point it's for all intents and purposes impossible to change that enemy behavior.

So... the band-aid fix is just nerfing Companions a lot so that they still remain useful (i.e. they're automatic meat shields and even with -50% Attributes/Skills, they will STILL be better than 90% of the game enemies), but they'll be weak enough to (probably) go down fast if tough enemies target them thus eliminating their meat-shield property for tough encounters.

EDIT: Also I would love to find some way to make movement speed remain unaffected by armor types. I'm not a fan of having to go slow as a fucking turtle everywhere just because I want to wear some Desert Ranger gear.

Instead of heavier armors affecting movement speed (which has little-to-no tactical value for purposes of combat because of VATS; it only serves to make the game tedious and annoying because you have to switch to fast-movement gear to move fast to next location and it has no meaningful bearing on what it was supposed to have bearing: the combat)--

--instead, make med/hev. Armors give maluses of some sort. Probably I'll do each one individually, not something across the board. Like, for example, the base game has stuff like the Metal armor that gives a malus to AGILITY.

That is what they should have run with instead of making them affect movement speed and thus make the game tedious; one can extrapolate from that concept. I mean, it's not exactly rocket science.
 
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aweigh

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Yes, Fallout NEVADA mod is absolute casual gamer cancer. That mod is so shit when someone says it makes FNV "the game it was meant to be!" you know that person has Zika virus.
 

Master

Arbiter
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Reduced backpedal speed is already in Sawyer mod which I found surprisingly insightly from Sawyer, didn't think he was that smart, so no need for that.

Wasnt that added later by the "UltimateJSawyermod" modder?
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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1) Regarding the VATS changes, I especially like what you did with headshots, and I am probably going to use it in my next playthrough.

2) Yes, I agree with nerfing companions, I just don't nerf them myself because I don't use companions anyway. Note that the JSawyer Ultimate mod has already nerfed their carrying capacity to match the PC's decreased weight limit.

3) If you 'll be using YUP, know that YUP decreased the Hand Loader perk requirement to 50 Repair (from 70). So I 'd restore that back to 70, if they haven't already restored it due to complaints.

4) Also, personally I would cut the XP gains in OWB to 80% of JSawyer current values (both quest XP and kill XP). The JSawyer Ultimate mod has already made such changes with respect to vanilla OWB, but they are not enough, imo.

5) Your armor type vs speed wishes are pure decline. :P Anyway, if you want to move in that direction, consider giving medium and heavy armor drawbacks to Agility OR Sneaking, drawing/holstering, and Reloading. Note that with the JSawyer mod there are some really cool medium armors available in stores (eg, at Novac), so be careful that you don't make them a no brainer.

6) Your explosives changes to crippling make sense, but they are going to make explosives builds overpowered. So handle with care. There are already perks that increase explosives radius, so I see no point in that.

7) The Survival skill needs a lot more skill checks badly. The same goes for Charisma.

8) I do not have many gripes with weapon efficiencies myself. Here are a few changes I would make:

- I would try to make pistols a viable choice by increasing their critical bonus. Maybe +5% or something like that.
- If other mods have not fixed it yet: Elijah's advanced LAER does not split into 3 beams when you apply the prismatic lens mod to it (while the normal LAER's beams gets split by the same mod). This makes the weapon ridiculously effective against armored opponents, so I would correct that.
- I might tone down the Riot Shotgun's effectiveness a bit, so that it is not a no brainer in comparison to other shotguns at short range. Note that it already has huge spread, so be careful that you don't make it useless.

9) As i mentioned in my criticism post, I would nerf the Skilled trait and the Comprehension perk. In particular:
- Skilled would give +3 to skills instead of +5.
- Magazines would give +8 to skills and Comprehension would raise that to +12. Right now the respective numbers are +10 and +20.

10) If you care enough to try to fix the energy weapon headshot achievement bug, people will be grateful. Afaik, it has not been fixed yet, with the exception of a mod that simply disables the achievement.
 

Sigourn

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Yes, Fallout NEVADA mod is absolute casual gamer cancer. That mod is so shit when someone says it makes FNV "the game it was meant to be!" you know that person has Zika virus.

Project Nevada has a lot of neat features... the Core module, at least. New Vegas is a first-person shooter and it should play like one, but keep the RPG elements as well.

If one could deactivate all of Project Nevada's feature so that they didn't override/conflict with mods that change the same elements, it would be one damn amazing mod. Sadly it doesn't provide that, and it also forces you to install a lot of shit modules (cyberware, equipment) just to install the "upgrade" that lets you tweak a lot of other formulas.

I like the changes you posted above, honestly my design philosophy when it comes to modding is "keep it real, but try not to sacrifice the role-playing aspect".
 

laclongquan

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- That one mod (I think one among several) which basically adds a fuck-ton of civilian (and optionally/additionally) also: guards of all factions, caraven NPCs, prospecters, etc, etc. I tried using that shit on my previous AMD piece of shit machine and thing almost blew up, but I might as well try it out now! I mean...

There's just nothing better than murdering your frame-rate for the sole benefit of having a shit load of NPCs that contribute no dialog, quests or meaningful interactivity and serve only to traipse around the game world and (sometimes) doing something cool like fighting each other (and then glitching the fuck out because duh, modders gonna mod).

PLease make note of your experience with this in near future because I am curious about that. In my runs, several years ago, I tried to increase the number of caravans but the game wipe them when they refresh cells, I think

Anyway, another good way to murder your frame rate is to increase your party's number. Since their pixels are better than the generic one, so the demand of graphic increase, I suppose.
 

Trashos

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Do you want me to start copy/pasting discussions from your own forum that shows your complete cluelessness, dude? Let me have my opinion and let it go. I tried to be as polite as possible, given that you guys don't even grasp the concept of what a bug is.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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Do you want me to start copy/pasting discussions from your own forum that shows your complete cluelessness, dude? Let me have my opinion and let it go. I tried to be as polite as possible, given that you guys don't even grasp the concept of what a bug is.

There's nothing wrong with YUP because it fixes bugs, glitches, inconsistencies, oversights, and the like. A rebalancing mod is a mod that changes the health of items for no fucking reason. YUP, if anything, changes the value of certain stuff to make it inline with similar stuff. That's not "rebalancing", that's correcting the game. I don't mind these corrections as long as they are corrections. I do mind, on the other hand, rebalancing for the sake of rebalancing, which YUP is not.

JSawyer, on the other hand, is a mod that both fixes bugs, glitches, inconsistencies, oversights, and the like, AND also rebalances the game to make it more difficult.
 

Trashos

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That's not "rebalancing", that's correcting the game. I don't mind these corrections as long as they are corrections. I do mind, on the other hand, rebalancing for the sake of rebalancing, which YUP is not.

That would be the case, if the YUP team actually had any idea of the game's internal logic. Unfortunately, they don't have the slightest clue.

Look. I respect the fact that I have nothing to lose (since i am not a NV modder) if we fight here, while you guys have a lot to lose. But if you want me to be able to recommend YUP in good faith to innocent players, you have to get your shit together, and actually try to understand the design of the game you are modding. Until then, don't get me started.
 

roll-a-die

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That's not "rebalancing", that's correcting the game. I don't mind these corrections as long as they are corrections. I do mind, on the other hand, rebalancing for the sake of rebalancing, which YUP is not.

That would be the case, if the YUP team actually had any idea of the game's internal logic. Unfortunately, they don't have the slightest clue.

Look. I respect the fact that I have nothing to lose (since i am not a NV modder) if we fight here, while you guys have a lot to lose. But if you want me to be able to recommend YUP in good faith to innocent players, you have to get your shit together, and actually try to understand the design of the game you are modding. Until then, don't get me started.
YUP changes very little about the balance of the game.

xEdit is a super easy to use and to read tool .

Maybe learn about the game and mods you are using yourself before complaining and trying to start a fake controversy.

You are literally taking observed evidence in a single case, and applying it to an external variable.

This is the equivalent of saying, "The sky turns orange in the evening because of the con-trails turning the frogs gay."

It makes no sense. You look worse for saying it. And everyone else who has any knowledge, and can examine the evidence of with independently created tools, knows you are trying to stir shit where there is no shit to stir.
 

Trashos

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So, now we have gone from "pure bug-fixing" and the other lies on YUP's description page to "correcting the game", and "changes very little". Nice, although we still have a long way to go.

When you talk about tools, you are just proving the point that I made initially.

I do not have to prove anything to any well meaning RPG fan. With YUP, players get Bethestards "correcting" an Obsidian game. That's my main point, and I don't see anyone disputing it. I believe fellow non-Bethestards have the right to know, and make of that what they will. I wish I knew, before I tried YUP.

Now. If you guys are determined to make me mad, I can get mad. But I do not want to. Let it go.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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That's not "rebalancing", that's correcting the game. I don't mind these corrections as long as they are corrections. I do mind, on the other hand, rebalancing for the sake of rebalancing, which YUP is not.

That would be the case, if the YUP team actually had any idea of the game's internal logic. Unfortunately, they don't have the slightest clue.

Look. I respect the fact that I have nothing to lose (since i am not a NV modder) if we fight here, while you guys have a lot to lose. But if you want me to be able to recommend YUP in good faith to innocent players, you have to get your shit together, and actually try to understand the design of the game you are modding. Until then, don't get me started.

What is your suggestion then? "Enjoy your buggy game because YUP a shit"? You speak as if YUP was some sort of Mission Mojave-clusterfuck of features and REBALANCING for the sake of rebalancing. Mission Mojave indeed is the worst attempt at "bugfixing" to grace any Bethesda or Bethesda-based game, as it is not what it advertises as.

There's no reason not to use YUP other than "I don't mind playing a broken game".
 

Trashos

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What is your suggestion then? "Enjoy your buggy game because YUP a shit"? You speak as if YUP was some sort of Mission Mojave-clusterfuck of features and REBALANCING for the sake of rebalancing. Mission Mojave indeed is the worst attempt at "bugfixing" to grace any Bethesda or Bethesda-based game, as it is not what it advertises as.

There's no reason not to use YUP other than "I don't mind playing a broken game".


If my main objective were to play a bugless game, I would have been playing Tetris.
I do not expect other players to make the same decisions that I did. Here is my initial post, that started all this conversation:

Personally, I don't recommend YUP until they get their shit together (they are Bethesda fans, and sometimes I wonder if they have played the game at all or just look at tis code), but be prepared that you may need individual fixes if you don't use it.

Pretty balanced, given my opinion of YUP, wouldn't you say?
But I do think potential users have the right to know. Later I wrote:

I believe fellow non-Bethestards have the right to know, and make of that what they will.

So I let people know and then wash my hands. I could be copy/pasting discussions from the YUP forum to support my points, but such things disgust me (even if I were told above that "I don't look good" with some of my claims hanging in the air). I let informed (or at least warned) people make their own choices. Whether they care is not my business.
 

Sigourn

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Personally, I don't recommend YUP until they get their shit together (they are Bethesda fans, and sometimes I wonder if they have played the game at all or just look at tis code), but be prepared that you may need individual fixes if you don't use it.

This is the opposite of "informed". "Individual fixes", are you fucking kidding me? You don't even bother providing concrete examples of "here YUP fucked up". Only three random examples that prove that YUP did nothing wrong, and an isolated case that couldn't be replicated by a fellow Codexer (because YUP literally changed nothing about geckos that would affect their combat prowess).

You are allowed to have your opinion, but as we all know, someone opinions are retarded or simply wrong.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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On an unrelated note: couldn't New Vegas be modded into having a Gothic-like progression when it comes to its world? Hand-placed enemies that block progression, forcing the player to explore around and so on. Unique item placement everywhere, meaningful level progression, you know the drill.
 

Trashos

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How is this for a fuck up? (from one of my posts above)

If you 'll be using YUP, know that YUP decreased the Hand Loader perk requirement to 50 Repair (from 70). So I 'd restore that back to 70, if they haven't already restored it due to complaints.

Anyway, as I said, I am not going to start copy/pasting other people's posts in other forums to prove my points. My opinion is what it is, I warned people, they may choose not to take me seriously, and that's the extend that I care. If anyone cares, YUP's forum is publicly available.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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How is this for a fuck up? (from one of my posts above)

The fuck up is Obsidian's. A Perk that requires a 70 to achieve has a recipe that only requires 50 in Repair. It doesn't make an sense. It can be argued that "well, then make those recipes require 70 Repair instead", but when you look at the progression chart you realize it makes more sense to drop down the level of Repair, because you are making fairly simple and common bullets, as opposed to the much rarer .44.
 
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aweigh

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Sigourn

Why yes it could be modded in such a way! There's a catch though:

You're essentially saying, hey wouldn't it be cool to make an entire game???

The astronomical amount of work involved in what you're referring to (obviously this is assuming such an endeavor would was undertaken seriously) is without any hyperbole whatsover the equivalent task to simply just making a game, and you can even make one using existing engine/assets, so, yeah... doubht that shit's gonna happen.

Even with the (admittedly huge) benefit of this proposition NOT requiring making new actual game areas, just completely reshaping every single little detail of the existing assets, I do concede it is *possible* a group of highly-autistic Spectrum Warriors would devote 12 years to making this kind of Total Conversion type of project; with the obvious and inevitable "modder drama!" slowly building up until in year 13 they all die mysteriously!
 
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Trashos

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The fuck up is Obsidian's. A Perk that requires a 70 to achieve has a recipe that only requires 50 in Repair. It doesn't make an sense. It can be argued that "well, then make those recipes require 70 Repair instead", but when you look at the progression chart you realize it makes more sense to drop down the level of Repair, because you are making fairly simple and common bullets, as opposed to the much rarer .44.

We went through this, the recipes have indivual, handpicked Repair-requirements. 70 Repair was a dev oversight.
You got any actual examples of malicious gameplay tweaks in YUP?

This is exactly was I talking about, so I am stressing my point one last time, and I don't think I will need to make point clearer after that. You guys are so clueless, that you think you can actually judge what's going on in the game and in the code, while you have absolutely no idea what is going on. This is, of course, my personal opinion of your ability to understand the game. Either I am clueless or you are, and I will let everyone decide for themselves.
 
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aweigh

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BTW, coming back to F:NV "tweaks and thaaangs" discussion:

- it is absolutely ridiculous that Repair is not only mostly superfluous but that they pay-walled one of the game's best perks, Jury-Rigging, behind a sky-high Repair requirement.

Getting JR perk is the only reason for an optimized min-mazimized baron von munchkin to even consider pumping Repair so high, and JR is indeed completely "OP" (in the sense that it is so good and its benefit is so far-reaching that it is inarguably a 'must-have', with the only reason for not going for JR perk is because the player is intentionally playing sub-optimally for enjoyment/entertainment).

That always bugged me.

Also: Caravan. That shit needs to get more enticing. I don't know how to do this, but I'd like to try finding out how to make caravan games somehow reward unique/"legendary" loot that the player would otherwise only come across very late-game; my initial idea is simply to make a hand-picked NPC, maybe a new one whipped up quickly for this purpose, who has an inventory and (you can do this in GECK) his "attitude" is such that all game items EXCEPT Caravan cards are worthless to him, so the player would be forced to trade/sell his/her Caravan cards to him in exchange for access to his inventory.

Obviously nothing OP, just an idea, as Caravan as it is in-game is like, why the fuck did they even bother. Obviously one would need to also raise NPC's Caravan Game "attitude" in the GECK to 2x from default, probably more, so that actually winning and getting the cards is a major achievement.

BTW, for those who've never poked around in the GECK you can super-easily flag any NPC, any, as any faction you want (they're in a handy list), or alternatively take away their faction property. Food for thought. This would require going by hand thru every single NPC in the game (lolz) but it's very easily done.

I remember I once made a some Deathclaws faction allies to NCR/Legion/etc, I went thru entire list, in the hopes of getting to watch a random Deathclaw fighting those people, and it did happen so it works! Enemies have an "attitude" and a disposition, and for those Deathclaws it was necessary to change/reduce both of those properties from their default "Psychopathic" values to almost making them completely peaceful (I just copy/pasted the values from, say, a Legion NPC if the Deathclaw was gonna be pro-NCR, etc).

Obviously that was just a thing done for fun, but has possibilities. The problem is the amount of work involved going thru NPCs one by one.

EDIT EDIT: to be clear, I forgot to mention I replaced troopers from NCR/Legion with Deathclaws. Remember it was just for fun nothing meant to be good.
 
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aweigh

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My take on the majority of the recipes is that in the beginning they were under-utilized and lacking in creative implementation with "lazy" (they were prolly rushed for time to make Gold master) with lazy/half-assed relativity (sic??) shoe-horned late-development process so that the vanilla game recipes would at least be tied to the game's RPG mechanics core.

However I think the DLCs really fully fleshed out the whole crafting AND recipe thing, and I'd find it hard to find flaws in them... aside from the usual Obsidian flaw of always playing it safe with itemization and spamming the fucking game with tons of fucking recipes with, (here's the biggest sin) most of the DLC added ones being simply too damn good.

The food ones completely trivialize the simulationist attempt they went for with the weakly applied hunger/sleep/thirst attributes, which makes you think: either they should've made better, more unique recipes, or they should have made the hunger/etc mechanic better (or remove it and implement something more elegant).

The DLC-added ammo recipes are atrociously powerful especially the shit for Energy Weapons. Ugh. The second Obsidian flaw present here is the Obsidian hubris of never taking a step back and thining, hey maybe we shouldn't make 150 recipes, and instead make half that number, or less, but each one very creative and unique and interconnected in various ways with ALL aspects of our game!

(The later ammo-crafting recipes basically further complicate, for lack of not saying "butcher" the already tenuous power progression/curve in FNV itemization; ALL weapons were then godlike if you just made dat ammo for them. Ugh).

Instead they did their usual (NWN 2, Kotor 2, FNV, and now PoE are proof) of making a TON OF SHIT, making sure every single build has "something" and a lot of those somethings, and then spending a huge amount of work "balancing" them to the tune of "why?".

Anyway I'm ranting now about something else other than recipes. They never triggered me over-much but only because I always recognized recipes/crafting in FNV as "game breaking" mechanics, so I never went for them or used them. The most I ever did was make Sharon's Whiskey item simply because she's a bae and went thru the trouble of teaching me.

I see stuff I immediately realize is "that shit is too good", I just avoid it.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
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Sigourn

Why yes it could be modded in such a way! There's a catch though:

You're essentially saying, hey wouldn't it be cool to make an entire game???

The astronomical amount of work involved in what you're referring to (obviously this is assuming such an endeavor would was undertaken seriously) is without any hyperbole whatsover the equivalent task to simply just making a game, and you can even make one using existing engine/assets, so, yeah... doubht that shit's gonna happen.

Even with the (admittedly huge) benefit of this proposition NOT requiring making new actual game areas, just completely reshaping every single little detail of the existing assets, I do concede it is *possible* a group of highly-autistic Spectrum Warriors would devote 12 years to making this kind of Total Conversion type of project; with the obvious and inevitable "modder drama!" slowly building up until in year 13 they all die mysteriously!

While I had simpler things in mind, I admit the way New Vegas' world (landscape) was built makes it very difficult to create a Gothic-like game. There would be a thousand ways to avoid most encounters because of the breadth of the game world.
 

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