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What are mmos with non shit character development?

Self-Ejected

vivec

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Oct 20, 2014
Messages
1,149
Tom Baker's Arse

What's wrong with Eberron?
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
If it lacks any permanence
It has the permanence the player gives it. Like any of the hundreds of rpgs with a respec function or cheats. You spergs are thinking about this way too much.

Such as? That is utter nonsense. That is like saying putting on a bib and putting on a tuxedo...
No, its like saying that a square soap and a round soap are the same. mechanically they mean the same thing. Everything else does not matter.
Stop trying to give new definitions to terms already established, or if its an important enough difference to you disclose it on the OP so i can cater to your very special type of retardation when i make my recommendation.

Your analogy is not even close to anything we have been saying. It is literally the worst analogy I've ever seen. You are saying nothing means anything because you say so. I am saying there is a whole world out there that proves you wrong. Apply your core statement to P&P systems, or finance, or retail, or sports, or literally anything and you don't just have a stupid opinion, you have a scientifically stupidly easy to prove wrong opinion. I can say my bottle of urine is worth a billion dollars, but value is defined by science (this case applied calculus in finance) says value is what the item last sold for (market or market independent). And that is the most basic example. When we get into more complex types of transactions, such as property or debt management (including mortgage debt) its just more systems with more factors that require more choices.

I like my rpgs, including mmorpgs to actually be rpgs. It seems a large amount of you are the fucking bottom feeders that destroy most mmorpgs because you whine and whine until all significant choices are removed and then whine because shit is still not even balanced and never will be unless you play the natural result of your incorrect assessment on basic reality - and play a game like Unknow Player or H1Z1 where everyone is exactly the same. My brother in law told me everyone complains and whines about various things still in those games. His big gripe is Chinese and some sort of remote server or something in H1Z1 where they could easily kill you but you couldn't kill them because of ping. I thought ping worked the other way and gave the advantage to the person with lower ping but he claims otherwise. That is why he is playing the new Unknown Player game more and more.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
I like working within the confines of a system. Where every decision has a steep opportunity cost of not allowing you x and y and z. And when there are hundreds of decisions is when things get interesting, especially if there is a stiff price of time or resources to change or make adjustments.
Which is reasonable enough, except that in the MMO environment where all your choices are locked in as such, there's basically no useful way to make a decision that isn't guaranteed to be wrong, because even if you're right, the developers will see to it that it becomes wrong, just because you were right.

This is not true at all. There are no wrong decisions, there are better and worse decisions. Saying a decision made was wrong could only happen by mistakenly selecting something you did not mean to. You have no way to know if you made a good decision until your build was fully realized amd you could ample time to test it extensively in various scenarios. Or you may only care about performance in specific scenarios or scenario.

Your assertion that the devs will nerf it as a certainty is also wrong. This is why
1) You are looking through the focus of a major mmorpg and none of them currently has any choices to make of any significance.
2) I'm sure you are talking about a raiding or large scale pvp environment where lots of people are present and some sort of ability is used by all the members of the class (since all major mmorpgs out now all have classes). Using an ability in an mmorpg without choices is not a choice.
3) Any game I play for a while has lost of choices and I exploit the system and tell no one and it is no surprise to me it is never nerfed. Why? It isn't wide spread, or else I wouldn't be using it. I specifically go against the grain by nature and never even consider doing what the sheep do. I don't get advice from my betters. I am the better and I do not give advice to my lesser. People often report me for cheating since they think they should be me since I am often outgeared since I rarely play a game long enough to have the best gear, or they think there build or cloass build should always beat mine because of the forum and theorycrafting and what their betters told them and they are the best current flavor. And still no nerfs. Why? Because if the game is active enough it has tier 1 players that can rip my ass open no matter what. They can beat anyone. They are freaks. Also, whoever checks to see if I was cheating is checking for cheats, not my build. Lastly, metadata on whatever the devs use to determine what to nerf is not effected by just me. If it isn't prominent and no one is whining about it ad nauseam on the forum no dev gives a shit and isn't going to nerf anything. Really lastly, a long of games are build to be so complex with so many moving parts only something egregious will get nerfed and usually after a long time, and usually along with a bunch of other changes that open up new doors of opportunity. A major example of this was wow vanilla through WotLK.


Now, look at wow - since they removed all significant choices since after WotLK, has all the whining and nerfs stopped? No. So if a game that went way out of its way to remove any meaningful choices still isn't balanced, what was the point? And can you guys see you are wrong with just this one game example?
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
Apply your core statement to P&P systems, or finance, or retail, or sports, or literally anything
Thats just retarded, they have nothing in common with the subject matter.

and you don't just have a stupid opinion, you have a scientifically stupidly easy to prove wrong opinion.
Im not the one making up two definitions on the fly.

Followed by some retarded rant about unrelated shit
Stop moving goalpost you shitcunt.
Fact of the matter, no matter how fleeting, a build is a build and a loadout is a loadout, one has to do with character development, the other with gear choice, that some mmos borrow the term to refer to something different doesnt suddenly mean the word suddenly transforms its meaning. Also defining a whole system by how your character may end up after 2000 hours of gameplay is uncharacteristically stupid, even for you.
 
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vivec

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Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
1,149
Faerun, a good campaign setting? :D Granted Eberron is still silly just like all the other D&D settings, but Faerun is the worst offender in terms of internal sense. Eberron at least tries to answer the question what would happen if the setting has magic and some technical inventiveness.
 
Joined
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Location
Georgie's shitter
Faerun, a good campaign setting? :D Granted Eberron is still silly just like all the other D&D settings, but Faerun is the worst offender in terms of internal sense. Eberron at least tries to answer the question what would happen if the setting has magic and some technical inventiveness.

I think you may be getting "technical inventiveness" mixed up with one word - "contrived". Yes, if I had one word that describes Eberron it would be contrived, very much so. And as for your "it is a mystery" rating on my second post regarding Greyhawk -- have you even run a campaign on original Greyhawk source material ?
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
Apply your core statement to P&P systems, or finance, or retail, or sports, or literally anything
Thats just retarded, they have nothing in common with the subject matter.

and you don't just have a stupid opinion, you have a scientifically stupidly easy to prove wrong opinion.
Im not the one making up two definitions on the fly.

Followed by some retarded rant about unrelated shit
Stop moving goalpost you shitcunt.
Fact of the matter, no matter how fleeting, a build is a build and a loadout is a loadout, one has to do with character development, the other with gear choice, that some mmos borrow the term to refer to something different doesnt suddenly mean the word suddenly transforms its meaning. Also defining a whole system by how your character may end up after 2000 hours of gameplay is uncharacteristically stupid, even for you.

Okay. I'm not doing this with someone like you. At least the other guy could comprehend and make rational points. You truly are something special. Very, very special.
 
Self-Ejected

vivec

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
1,149
Faerun, a good campaign setting? :D Granted Eberron is still silly just like all the other D&D settings, but Faerun is the worst offender in terms of internal sense. Eberron at least tries to answer the question what would happen if the setting has magic and some technical inventiveness.

I think you may be getting "technical inventiveness" mixed up with one word - "contrived". Yes, if I had one word that describes Eberron it would be contrived, very much so. And as for your "it is a mystery" rating on my second post regarding Greyhawk -- have you even run a campaign on original Greyhawk source material ?
Not yet. However, I would do so on recommendations.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
I like working within the confines of a system. Where every decision has a steep opportunity cost of not allowing you x and y and z. And when there are hundreds of decisions is when things get interesting, especially if there is a stiff price of time or resources to change or make adjustments.
Which is reasonable enough, except that in the MMO environment where all your choices are locked in as such, there's basically no useful way to make a decision that isn't guaranteed to be wrong, because even if you're right, the developers will see to it that it becomes wrong, just because you were right.

This is not true at all. There are no wrong decisions, there are better and worse decisions. Saying a decision made was wrong could only happen by mistakenly selecting something you did not mean to. You have no way to know if you made a good decision until your build was fully realized amd you could ample time to test it extensively in various scenarios. Or you may only care about performance in specific scenarios or scenario.

Your assertion that the devs will nerf it as a certainty is also wrong. This is why
1) You are looking through the focus of a major mmorpg and none of them currently has any choices to make of any significance.
2) I'm sure you are talking about a raiding or large scale pvp environment where lots of people are present and some sort of ability is used by all the members of the class (since all major mmorpgs out now all have classes). Using an ability in an mmorpg without choices is not a choice.
3) Any game I play for a while has lost of choices and I exploit the system and tell no one and it is no surprise to me it is never nerfed. Why? It isn't wide spread, or else I wouldn't be using it. I specifically go against the grain by nature and never even consider doing what the sheep do. I don't get advice from my betters. I am the better and I do not give advice to my lesser. People often report me for cheating since they think they should be me since I am often outgeared since I rarely play a game long enough to have the best gear, or they think there build or cloass build should always beat mine because of the forum and theorycrafting and what their betters told them and they are the best current flavor. And still no nerfs. Why? Because if the game is active enough it has tier 1 players that can rip my ass open no matter what. They can beat anyone. They are freaks. Also, whoever checks to see if I was cheating is checking for cheats, not my build. Lastly, metadata on whatever the devs use to determine what to nerf is not effected by just me. If it isn't prominent and no one is whining about it ad nauseam on the forum no dev gives a shit and isn't going to nerf anything. Really lastly, a long of games are build to be so complex with so many moving parts only something egregious will get nerfed and usually after a long time, and usually along with a bunch of other changes that open up new doors of opportunity. A major example of this was wow vanilla through WotLK.


Now, look at wow - since they removed all significant choices since after WotLK, has all the whining and nerfs stopped? No. So if a game that went way out of its way to remove any meaningful choices still isn't balanced, what was the point? And can you guys see you are wrong with just this one game example?
Given the size of the chip on your shoulder I'm surprised you can operate a keyboard.

It seems like you actually believe you were inventing things instead of just playing in the tiny sandbox the designers gave you.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
I like working within the confines of a system. Where every decision has a steep opportunity cost of not allowing you x and y and z. And when there are hundreds of decisions is when things get interesting, especially if there is a stiff price of time or resources to change or make adjustments.
Which is reasonable enough, except that in the MMO environment where all your choices are locked in as such, there's basically no useful way to make a decision that isn't guaranteed to be wrong, because even if you're right, the developers will see to it that it becomes wrong, just because you were right.

This is not true at all. There are no wrong decisions, there are better and worse decisions. Saying a decision made was wrong could only happen by mistakenly selecting something you did not mean to. You have no way to know if you made a good decision until your build was fully realized amd you could ample time to test it extensively in various scenarios. Or you may only care about performance in specific scenarios or scenario.

Your assertion that the devs will nerf it as a certainty is also wrong. This is why
1) You are looking through the focus of a major mmorpg and none of them currently has any choices to make of any significance.
2) I'm sure you are talking about a raiding or large scale pvp environment where lots of people are present and some sort of ability is used by all the members of the class (since all major mmorpgs out now all have classes). Using an ability in an mmorpg without choices is not a choice.
3) Any game I play for a while has lost of choices and I exploit the system and tell no one and it is no surprise to me it is never nerfed. Why? It isn't wide spread, or else I wouldn't be using it. I specifically go against the grain by nature and never even consider doing what the sheep do. I don't get advice from my betters. I am the better and I do not give advice to my lesser. People often report me for cheating since they think they should be me since I am often outgeared since I rarely play a game long enough to have the best gear, or they think there build or cloass build should always beat mine because of the forum and theorycrafting and what their betters told them and they are the best current flavor. And still no nerfs. Why? Because if the game is active enough it has tier 1 players that can rip my ass open no matter what. They can beat anyone. They are freaks. Also, whoever checks to see if I was cheating is checking for cheats, not my build. Lastly, metadata on whatever the devs use to determine what to nerf is not effected by just me. If it isn't prominent and no one is whining about it ad nauseam on the forum no dev gives a shit and isn't going to nerf anything. Really lastly, a long of games are build to be so complex with so many moving parts only something egregious will get nerfed and usually after a long time, and usually along with a bunch of other changes that open up new doors of opportunity. A major example of this was wow vanilla through WotLK.


Now, look at wow - since they removed all significant choices since after WotLK, has all the whining and nerfs stopped? No. So if a game that went way out of its way to remove any meaningful choices still isn't balanced, what was the point? And can you guys see you are wrong with just this one game example?
Given the size of the chip on your shoulder I'm surprised you can operate a keyboard.

It seems like you actually believe you were inventing things instead of just playing in the tiny sandbox the designers gave you.

I'm almost certain you do not understand what the idiom "chip on your shoulder" means.

I believe I was having fun exploring a system and trying to think of ways to exploit possible holes. What is so difficult to understand about this?

Rae you saying people as slow as you guys should dictate that all rpgs should remove meaningful and significant character development choices since looking up what cookie cutter build your betters tell you to use is too much of a strain on you all?
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
The meaning of your words has been quite plain.

The disconnect is that you consider yourself a god-tier systems analyst, and I can see the puppet strings added by the designer.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
The meaning of your words has been quite plain.

The disconnect is that you consider yourself a god-tier systems analyst, and I can see the puppet strings added by the designer.

So you are a God? Or a God-tier Geppetto? It seems you think I should not have fun with my hobby? This is why I like rpgs and play rpgs. Should I not enjoy what I enjoy? Well, let me come down off my high horse and join you mortals. I will start hating rpgs just for you. And you know what? As a bonus I too will use idioms that do not apply. When I play a game I will drop of a hat and buy some cheap stuff for an arm and a leg to add insult to injury. Well, since I'm done here I guess I'll head back to the drawing board!
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
This is not true at all. There are no wrong decisions, there are better and worse decisions.
If a better decision exists, then the current decision is wrong. Period.

Your assertion that the devs will nerf it as a certainty is also wrong. This is why
1) You are looking through the focus of a major mmorpg and none of them currently has any choices to make of any significance.
2) I'm sure you are talking about a raiding or large scale pvp environment where lots of people are present and some sort of ability is used by all the members of the class (since all major mmorpgs out now all have classes). Using an ability in an mmorpg without choices is not a choice.
3) Any game I play for a while has lost of choices and I exploit the system and tell no one and it is no surprise to me it is never nerfed. Why? It isn't wide spread, or else I wouldn't be using it.
Well, you're not the only clever person, and there's always at least one with a big mouth.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
This is not true at all. There are no wrong decisions, there are better and worse decisions.
If a better decision exists, then the current decision is wrong. Period.

Your assertion that the devs will nerf it as a certainty is also wrong. This is why
1) You are looking through the focus of a major mmorpg and none of them currently has any choices to make of any significance.
2) I'm sure you are talking about a raiding or large scale pvp environment where lots of people are present and some sort of ability is used by all the members of the class (since all major mmorpgs out now all have classes). Using an ability in an mmorpg without choices is not a choice.
3) Any game I play for a while has lost of choices and I exploit the system and tell no one and it is no surprise to me it is never nerfed. Why? It isn't wide spread, or else I wouldn't be using it.
Well, you're not the only clever person, and there's always at least one with a big mouth.

Better decision for what scenario? Better in what way, for general survivability, oh shit situation, closer, burst, etc, etc, etc.

You don't get it and your kind never will. If this isn't clear to even people like you by this point, further explanation is futile.

You are not a clever person and there are way more than one dummy with a big mouth. For proof check the internet.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
This is not true at all. There are no wrong decisions, there are better and worse decisions.
If a better decision exists, then the current decision is wrong. Period.
Oh, boy :lol:
Do you even remember when you were playing games for fun? Or has it all been replaced by some weird urge to optimize?

I don't want to optimize, but the fun for me is coming up with OP builds. I assume your use of optimize is getting information about what build to use from your betters who claim it is mathematically superior. I disagree with them, the idiots not smart enough to make their own successful build, and the kidification of games due to these idiots. WoW used to be an adult game with complexity - now it is just a child's game devoid of thought.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
It is sad what this entire genre has become. WoW was a dumbed down kiddie version of EverQuest devoid of strategy and consequence, right from the start. Yet today early WoW is looked up to as some sort of golden age, back before all the changes. So if we are now dumbing down games that were already dumbed down to begin with, maybe it is time for the human race to just call it a day. There is only so far a species can devolve until we are a bunch of monkeys pressing keys on a device created by our ancient ancestors.

Also in this thread, it is sad that nobody mentioned the best one... Vanguard. It had the best character development and best classes of any game you could ever find, with the exception of 1 class. The character building was amazing though. For example I decided to 2 box the game, and I built a bard as a tank, and a shaman as a healer/dps. It worked ok and I got to high levels like that, although doing some of the group content was too hard. A pro player suggested I respec the characters, making the Shaman into a Bear Shaman who could tank, and a dps Bard that was much better at dps. The change was enormous. The Bard was clearly designed more to be a dps and making him a tank originally was not really suited, yet what I did worked. But when I changed the stats it became like a completely different class. He became a glass cannon with very few hp and ac, could die easily, but did huge dps. And the Bear Shaman went the other way, his healing was about the same, damage was a bit less, but he could tank as well as most of the dedicated tank classes, huge hp and ac and avoidance. He just lacked taunt which kinda sucked, but I got by.

The game had some great designs though. And you got multiple ability points per level, so even playing for an hour felt like you had made some good progress.
 
Last edited:

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
p.s. Vanguard is being brought back to live by an emulator team. Although it is still several months off by the looks of it.
 

Zarniwoop

TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™
Patron
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
18,650
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I only know of one MMORPGWTFBBQ game that used to have a decent system, and that was Star Trek Online.

Of course, it got infested with millennials who bitched about MUH BALANCE!!!1111!!!1!1!!, everyone played with Escort ships because they BTFO of everything in PVP, so over time it was turned into the grindy, everything-is-exactly-the-same mess we see now and PVP was taken out. :negative:
 

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