What are mmos with non shit character development?

[YES!]

As the title says.

Tier 1 (Tons of systems, free form selection, meaningful and significant choices not dependent on gear)

1) DDO. King of character development with tons of choices that are meaningful and significant. Regular 3.5 D&D ability, skill, and feat allocation, along with tons of skill trees per class, race, and in general. Also, a post 20 system of regular leveling up and a ton of new trees and a whole new system to choice from. All free form and open choice other than the normal 3.5 leveling up which is controlled by the 3.5 rules for classes for the most part.


Tier 2 (Choices matter less and have a less significant impact on how your character plays compared to other characters of the same class or to perform the same function)
1) Anarchy Online - lots of options but not of the significance level of DDO. Itemization plays as large a role of making a character perform differently as the class was intended. Free form building in all ways besides research.

2) EQ2 - On release this game had pretty much zero character development. Since then through AA it has added more and more systems. For the most part classes perform as intended with choices being not so much flavor but of less significance than would be needed to make this game a tier 1 game

3) Wildstar - Free choice of what abilities to use, limited points to upgrade abilities, and a sort of skill tree circle with free selection. This systems' impact is lessened by the roll you want your class to play as various roles use different stats and hybrid building is not effective as a true free system.

4) Rift -Tons of skill/ability trees, but very formulaic and boils down mostly to almost flavor. Also, a system to improve your character at max but not very impactful, but free form distribution.

5) UO - Skill based level up with skill caps. Can change to other skills and not locked into build.

6) Pathfinder Online - An amalgamation of the P&P system where you "equip" feats. Decent level of customization with both significant-ish and meaningful-ish choices.

(Not really an MMO but there are some servers for aat least NWN2 that could belong here such as Something Baldur's Gate and Trinity servers, as well as a Planescape Server. Probably others. Probably NWN1 servers too).


Tier 3
Games that have mostly flavor choices and all characters of the same class perform pretty much the exact same way. These games are usually significantly gear dependent for performance. ESO, FF whatever, Warcraft, Neverwinter Online, SWTOR, etc are in this catagery. The skill trees in LotrO are too closed off without enough choice involved to be seriously considered for a higher tier.

Skill based progression games usually belong here as all of the ones I know about allow you to max out everything on the same character leading to complete homogenization and the only choice being what function you want the character to perform at that specific time. Examples being Ryzom and Runescape.

Games such as all the ones not listed above are in this category.


Did I miss any that should be tier 2? Project Genome may be the only one that could be tier 1 when it comes out. But most likely will be tier 2. We can hope. There are definitely some solid tier 2 games to look forward too.

 

[buru5]

I think the problem here is that you're looking for MMOs with non-shit character development.

 

[thesheeep]

I doubt there'll ever be an MMO with such a great character building as DDO.

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

Too bad it is Eberron <shudder>

LOTRO's skill trees are not as shitty as people make them out to be. There is a "somewhat" open element to them when first building your spec. It is at that point you can borrow from other trees. In other words I can have a Hunter who traits Blue with a touch of Red, or a Champ who traits Yellow with a touch of Red.

 

[YES!]

Too bad it is Eberron <shudder>

LOTRO's skill trees are not as shitty as people make them out to be. There is a "somewhat" open element to them when first building your spec. It is at that point you can borrow from other trees. In other words I can have a Hunter who traits Blue with a touch of Red, or a Champ who traits Yellow with a touch of Red.

I agree, but the options are very limited, and it locks you out of the non-primary color's gained abilities besides counting twice as much per point. It is more flavor than a system of any significance. There is one main choice - which tree to pick. I would relate it to the skill trees of wow in Cataclysm. You had one real choice, and then everything after that was obvious or flavor. WotLK, BC, and vanilla wow trees would have been a solid tier 2.

LotRO could be Tier 2 if they ever open up the trees to free form and and free selection of the same cost. Will it make it harder to balance? Certainly, but also would give it meaning and purpose and open up true hybrid builds like wow WotLK and prior.

 

[YES!]

I doubt there'll ever be an MMO with such a great character building as DDO.

Have you looked into Project Genome? It could possibly have the potential. Also, did you know DDO is getting another expansion this year? Word to your mother.

 

[thesheeep]

I doubt there'll ever be an MMO with such a great character building as DDO.

Have you looked into Project Genome? It could possibly have the potential. Also, did you know DDO is getting another expansion this year? Word to your mother.

I know, they keep on developing DDO. The original devs afaik just recently reaquired it, which is good.

But I have played the starting areas so often that I just cannot stomach starting another character. Nor do I want to use one of those "start your new character at level X" actions, as it would rob any sense of achievement - plus, getting there and leveling up is most of the fun.
I have almost 0 interest in end-game content or guilds. Instead, I just play new characters until a certain point, then start again with something else.
It doesn't help that in the beginning, 50% of quests are in fucking sewers

Project Genome... hmmmm. Wake me up in 2 years or so.

 

[YES!]

I doubt there'll ever be an MMO with such a great character building as DDO.

Have you looked into Project Genome? It could possibly have the potential. Also, did you know DDO is getting another expansion this year? Word to your mother.

I know, they keep on developing DDO. The original devs afaik just recently reaquired it, which is good.

But I have played the starting areas so often that I just cannot stomach starting another character. Nor do I want to use one of those "start your new character at level X" actions, as it would rob any sense of achievement - plus, getting there and leveling up is most of the fun.
I have almost 0 interest in end-game content or guilds. Instead, I just play new characters until a certain point, then start again with something else.
It doesn't help that in the beginning, 50% of quests are in fucking sewers

Project Genome... hmmmm. Wake me up in 2 years or so.

I find it impossible to not start a lvl 15 class. You skip the shit and have enough points and levels to make your character really yours and see a good part of your build emerge. It is pretty easy to get to level 15. Just broing to me. The real game starts at lvl 20 so you only have to suck up a little noring till you get to the good stuff. If you give it a try and get a character to max, tell me there is no sense of achievement and I will eat my words.

 

[J1M]

This is a strange ask. I understand the fun of character building. (It is most of the enjoyment for something like NWN.)

For an MMO, where the time to build a character is 100x higher, and you have to rely on other people's build choices, I am not sure why you'd want build choices at all.

Progression along different axes? Sure. Ability to switch role? Sure. A bevy of character choice traps for the people you need to play with? No thanks.

Corollary: the higher the number of options, the less differentiated and interesting each option can be.

MMOs are better games when the focus is on party building instead of character building.

 

[Mangoose]

Anarchy Online is back on Steam, I haven't played it yet but I plan to.

J1M Party building requires roles, and roles come from character builds. It's the grinding/leveling process that is annoying.

YES! Depends if you mean character development in terms of method of leveling, or you just mean variety/interestingness of builds.

For the latter,
GW1 is good I think,
Warhammer Online doesn't have free-form selection in terms of build but great class mechanics so in a way class choices matter a lot and playing your role well in PVP is more important than gear in general (content sucks of course),
Most games that are skill-choice based rather than class-based or if classes exist at all.

Also DDO is like PNP with graphics so that's cheating lol.

I think it's hard to find the type of games - even games outside of MMOs - that apply to this topic outside of games that heavily depend on tactics and/or strategy.

 

[YES!]

This is a strange ask. I understand the fun of character building. (It is most of the enjoyment for something like NWN.)

For an MMO, where the time to build a character is 100x higher, and you have to rely on other people's build choices, I am not sure why you'd want build choices at all.

Progression along different axes? Sure. Ability to switch role? Sure. A bevy of character choice traps for the people you need to play with? No thanks.

Corollary: the higher the number of options, the less differentiated and interesting each option can be.

MMOs are better games when the focus is on party building instead of character building.

This is pure hogwash. I've never once relied on anyone else's build. I analyze, test, devise, and destroy. You cannt build a party in any mmo besides some wile Doofus, STO, and that 3d TB one focusing on party building. You can group with other people, sure. But that is not building a party, but grouping.

If an mmo does not have character building it isn't worth playing in my opinion. If I am exactly like everyone else, minus equipment, I do not have character. I have the dev's character, which everyone who selected my class does as well. 90% of the fun of rpgs to me is character building. I do not post or share my builds, and only pick apart the socallec cookie cutter builds of others. Like when wow tanks used to not put the two points into the skill that reduced magic damage by 2% per point (2 points total) because of contradictory reasons of their other choices and main stated goal of their build.

Cookie cutter only works in a vacuum where the combat is scripted. Outside tof that it falls apart. Any sort of raid boss encounter that required people to react to the situation instead of set scripting will require different considerations. Cookie cutters usually focus on nonsense and not real life situations such as maximizing time on target. people trying to force themselves to try and play the arena like the best of them only helps me. They don't know how to deal with me and my build customized for me and my strengths. This isn't counting the fucking freakishly good high tier 1 players that can kill me easily no matter what I do. No one can beat them unless they are one of them. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar. The adapt without even thinking, never seem to waste a GCD or fall for the most well devised tricks. They destroy without effort.

I actually need to make a correction. I think party building is possible in AO since people used to run around with 6 of their own characters hotboxed.

 

[YES!]

More Tier 2s I thought of and can't believe I missed but cant edit original post -

Champions online. I can't believe I forgot this game. A great game for character building, free form too. It aalso has skill trees and other systems as well.

Star Trek Online - I know they revamp their system but even before it there were a ton of options. I'm not sure if it is better or worse now. But between crew, ship, class, and skill distribution, and itemization, there is definitely solid tier 2 character building.

Fallen Earth - Free form character development with an open skill system. Attributes cap skills, which caps what abilities can be used (along with faction). This was stripped of some complexity when it went FTP but still a solid tier 2 system.

 

[J1M]

FFXI had a great grouping system, but the only real character build choice you had was class and subclass.

A stark counterpoint to your assertions.

You cant 'character build' your way out of an unexpected situation. By definition that is the strategy that takes place prior. The tactical rush of creatively using the tools you have available is still present when the developer chooses the tools of your class.

Freeform systems regress to a mean of less differentiation than orthagonal class design. It is unavoidable when you cannot rely on other people having access to certain abilities.

 

[buru5]

FFXI had a great grouping system, but the only real character build choice you had was class and subclass.

Which actually gives you a lot of freedom in how you play your character.

I was going to suggest this game. I think it should fall under tier 2. It's based on Everquest but I'd argue that it has more options regarding how you play your character than EQ.

 

[YES!]

If you guys are talking about the new FF mmorpg (not the first FF morpg) then you are both out of your fucking minds. It has almost no choice at all. The only choice it gives you other than class is to grind every fucking class to get the couple abilities you can use with another class. This game is the total anathema to what this whole fucking post is about.

Jim-

I agree in total freeform systems with no character builds that allow fully maxed everything. I do not think you have experience with games with real character builds and talking to you is not productive until you experience games with actual character building.

You keep focusing on shitty, monkey games scruipted for and designed for no surprises. Mass pvp so nothing matters. Easy instances so nothing matters. Just watch a video of someone doing it and you are then a pro. Don't stand in the fire! Monkey shit for fucking idiots.

people who play your type of game do not want surprises. They do not want situations in which they have to adapt and react. You will never get to make a choice of should I go with this talent line that increases my survivability by x amount in these common situations, and also gives me an emergency button in this situation, or take the dps line and this ability and then add some in this line for this and hope these tons of situations don't happen or I can react quick enough.

There are millions upon millions of scenarios your games where not built for. Character building games are about the challenge. Hard character builds with a big cost to change if even allowed to change. What can this character do? How do you manipulate the system to work in your favor. What does not one expect?


As a poor pvm example, in wow BC, there was no dual builds and the cost to reset became more and more prohibitive. Gold was not abundant. I had a druid and I built him for the arena. I only changed specs when I thought I could refine my build for the arena. The tank classes had threat increasing talents that were necessary for pvm, but did nothing in the arena or for pvp.

I wasn't going to waste points on it, and I had to pvm to get certain items for pvp like trinkets, weapon for swapping, etc. Tanks were very rare in BC so I was the tank to get groups and I had to figure out how to hold agro without the 40% increased agro talents. And I did it. I didn't raid much because all the gear I needed wan't in the highest raids. I only needed two raids, I think? Or the coins from them? I'm not sure. I had to raid and in one had to OT. This is besides the point. The point is the fucking arena was awesome and the talent trees up through wotlk were awesome. In BC they even had a dungeon with a boss fight that was 5 guys that was meant to simulate the arena since there was no threat, etc. I loved that fight but the average wow player hated it. Thinking isn't their forte. Watching what their betters are doing in videos and just coping them is what these people like.

 

[buru5]

FFXI is SE's first FF MMORPG, tard.

Haven't played their newest one so I have no comment on that.

 

[Helton]

Try Path of Exile. Its free. Sounds like you're into PvP so maybe won't do it for you, but the character system (and its interplay with the other systems) is pretty amazing imo.

 

[Norfleet]

There are no MMOs with good character buliding, because the very nature of an MMO, that of constant nerfing, is pretty much anathema to any character building. You can't really make meaningful choices in an environment where any good choices you make quickly become bad choices when they nerf into the ground shortly later. Character-building in an MMO can only be really done when the developers finally fuck off, which means the game is dead anyway, so why bother?

If you guys are talking about the new FF mmorpg (not the first FF morpg) then you are both out of your fucking minds. It has almost no choice at all. The only choice it gives you other than class is to grind every fucking class to get the couple abilities you can use with another class.

I argue this isn't necessarily a bad idea, since at least your choices don't constantly get the rug pulled out from under them as you can just choose something else when they inevitably nerf it into the dirt.

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

Too bad it is Eberron <shudder>

LOTRO's skill trees are not as shitty as people make them out to be. There is a "somewhat" open element to them when first building your spec. It is at that point you can borrow from other trees. In other words I can have a Hunter who traits Blue with a touch of Red, or a Champ who traits Yellow with a touch of Red.

I agree, but the options are very limited, and it locks you out of the non-primary color's gained abilities besides counting twice as much per point. It is more flavor than a system of any significance. There is one main choice - which tree to pick. I would relate it to the skill trees of wow in Cataclysm. You had one real choice, and then everything after that was obvious or flavor. WotLK, BC, and vanilla wow trees would have been a solid tier 2.

LotRO could be Tier 2 if they ever open up the trees to free form and and free selection of the same cost. Will it make it harder to balance? Certainly, but also would give it meaning and purpose and open up true hybrid builds like wow WotLK and prior.

Good points made, and I do agree, wholeheartedly -- LotRO's skill trees are definitely not a true hybrid system by any means. I could only wish for that. (as if it would ever happen)

 

[YES!]

There are no MMOs with good character buliding, because the very nature of an MMO, that of constant nerfing, is pretty much anathema to any character building. You can't really make meaningful choices in an environment where any good choices you make quickly become bad choices when they nerf into the ground shortly later. Character-building in an MMO can only be really done when the developers finally fuck off, which means the game is dead anyway, so why bother?

If you guys are talking about the new FF mmorpg (not the first FF morpg) then you are both out of your fucking minds. It has almost no choice at all. The only choice it gives you other than class is to grind every fucking class to get the couple abilities you can use with another class.

I argue this isn't necessarily a bad idea, since at least your choices don't constantly get the rug pulled out from under them as you can just choose something else when they inevitably nerf it into the dirt.

No good game with good character building does this to a significant degree. it only impacts fucking idiots going for FOM builds in games with minor choices that don't matter such as all the popular ones. People who actually like rpgs will, without a doubt, want to play mmorpgs with choices. You do not want a character just like every single other character of that class but with different superficial looks.

You guys are promoting a system that is literally anathema to what anything with rpg in its description should be.

 

[YES!]

Too bad it is Eberron <shudder>

LOTRO's skill trees are not as shitty as people make them out to be. There is a "somewhat" open element to them when first building your spec. It is at that point you can borrow from other trees. In other words I can have a Hunter who traits Blue with a touch of Red, or a Champ who traits Yellow with a touch of Red.

I agree, but the options are very limited, and it locks you out of the non-primary color's gained abilities besides counting twice as much per point. It is more flavor than a system of any significance. There is one main choice - which tree to pick. I would relate it to the skill trees of wow in Cataclysm. You had one real choice, and then everything after that was obvious or flavor. WotLK, BC, and vanilla wow trees would have been a solid tier 2.

LotRO could be Tier 2 if they ever open up the trees to free form and and free selection of the same cost. Will it make it harder to balance? Certainly, but also would give it meaning and purpose and open up true hybrid builds like wow WotLK and prior.

Good points made, and I do agree, wholeheartedly -- LotRO's skill trees are definitely not a true hybrid system by any means. I could only wish for that. (as if it would ever happen)

I'm not sure who Tom Baker is, but I am glad his ass and myself can agree on this.

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

Too bad it is Eberron <shudder>

LOTRO's skill trees are not as shitty as people make them out to be. There is a "somewhat" open element to them when first building your spec. It is at that point you can borrow from other trees. In other words I can have a Hunter who traits Blue with a touch of Red, or a Champ who traits Yellow with a touch of Red.

I agree, but the options are very limited, and it locks you out of the non-primary color's gained abilities besides counting twice as much per point. It is more flavor than a system of any significance. There is one main choice - which tree to pick. I would relate it to the skill trees of wow in Cataclysm. You had one real choice, and then everything after that was obvious or flavor. WotLK, BC, and vanilla wow trees would have been a solid tier 2.

LotRO could be Tier 2 if they ever open up the trees to free form and and free selection of the same cost. Will it make it harder to balance? Certainly, but also would give it meaning and purpose and open up true hybrid builds like wow WotLK and prior.

Good points made, and I do agree, wholeheartedly -- LotRO's skill trees are definitely not a true hybrid system by any means. I could only wish for that. (as if it would ever happen)

I'm not sure who Tom Baker is, but I am glad his ass and myself can agree on this.

https://www.tombakerofficial.com/ (best known for being the 4th Doctor in Doctor Who)

 

[YES!]

Too bad it is Eberron <shudder>

LOTRO's skill trees are not as shitty as people make them out to be. There is a "somewhat" open element to them when first building your spec. It is at that point you can borrow from other trees. In other words I can have a Hunter who traits Blue with a touch of Red, or a Champ who traits Yellow with a touch of Red.

I agree, but the options are very limited, and it locks you out of the non-primary color's gained abilities besides counting twice as much per point. It is more flavor than a system of any significance. There is one main choice - which tree to pick. I would relate it to the skill trees of wow in Cataclysm. You had one real choice, and then everything after that was obvious or flavor. WotLK, BC, and vanilla wow trees would have been a solid tier 2.

LotRO could be Tier 2 if they ever open up the trees to free form and and free selection of the same cost. Will it make it harder to balance? Certainly, but also would give it meaning and purpose and open up true hybrid builds like wow WotLK and prior.

Good points made, and I do agree, wholeheartedly -- LotRO's skill trees are definitely not a true hybrid system by any means. I could only wish for that. (as if it would ever happen)

I'm not sure who Tom Baker is, but I am glad his ass and myself can agree on this.

https://www.tombakerofficial.com/ (best known for being the 4th Doctor in Doctor Who)

Doctor Who was ruined for me as a kid. We had one TV and on the weekends when we were allowed in my father watched this shitty weird talking show with multi-colored blobs of awful special effects, and talking, and more talking, and then even more. Then he watched Benny Hill after which showed real boobs and was silly enough to be funny to my child mind even though I had no idea what was going on. Then was a cop show I can remember the music too but not the name - one guy was called Fish. Then he watched Welcome Back Carter after that. Or Sanford and Son. I forget which was last. Then he would be pretty drunk by then and go to bingo with my mom or out to a bar. The only positive memories I have of these TV watching shows with my old man is Benny Hill and real boobs on TV. Props to England for putting real boobs on TV. It was and still is a great idea. Real boobs make everything better.

I love Sci-Fi and would probably really enjoy Doctor Who now, but my butthurt from childhood still rankles. Also, it was confusing to my child mind to see a white guy with an afro.

 

[Norfleet]

No good game with good character building does this to a significant degree.

Every MMO nerfs.

People who actually like rpgs will, without a doubt, want to play mmorpgs with choices. You do not want a character just like every single other character of that class but with different superficial looks.

We'd all like choices. The problem is that when those choices are fixed in stone after choosing, yet their outcomes are subject to being arbitrarily revised, one month you have a good character, the next month your character is worthless scrap. This sort of renders decisions meaningless.

 

[YES!]

No good game with good character building does this to a significant degree.

Every MMO nerfs.

People who actually like rpgs will, without a doubt, want to play mmorpgs with choices. You do not want a character just like every single other character of that class but with different superficial looks.

We'd all like choices. The problem is that when those choices are fixed in stone after choosing, yet their outcomes are subject to being arbitrarily revised, one month you have a good character, the next month your character is worthless scrap. This sort of renders decisions meaningless.

I disagree. As a wow player in the days when talent trees where very significant, I would hear people whining on the board nonstop about every change made to their class. I adapted and overcame while they whined. The really good arena players did the same. I am not saying I am one of the really good players as these fucking animals could destroy me without effort, as they can destroy anyone but one of their own the same way. People complain about the numbers changing, or one ability's functionality slightly changing. It is the total functionality of the class and how it suites your strengths. It can't be cookie cutted. It can only be grown into and refined. You shore up weaknesses, sometimes at the detriment of strengths. You test, refine, adapt.

As evidence I give you any game I listed with good character development that has been out for a long time with no major class updates, such as AO. New super builds are still being discovered. New things still being tried. You play, learn, see holes, try and exploit those holes, test, refine.

Now, to disprove your point. After WoW's latest expansion my brother-in-law stopped playing wow. After playing it non-stop since shortly before the BC came out.

1) Fact - WoW has completely gutted any important choices characters can make. No decision a character makes regarding the handful of talents, race, glyphs, etc, matter one iota anymore.
2) He picked whatever the new class was.
3) I guess the big DPS spam ability for this class was an AO ability. They thought it was too strong so nerfed it and that made the whole class suck.
4) This does not happen in the games I talk about because you have the option to completely revamp your setup. Your build may revolve around one ability, and if that ability changes you just change your build. Most intelligent players don't have one build in mind, they see lots of holes they want to exploit and try them out over time. A nerf is just a new opportunity to try something new if it even matters, which most nerfs don't in good games. They only matter in shit games for shitheads that hate thinking and just copy what their betters do.