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KickStarter Wellspring: Altar of Roots - tactical RPG inspired by JRPGs (formerly Bevontule)

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Hi all! As you know, we're down to the wire on Kickstarter, with around 5 days left. Nearly 3 years of blood, sweat and tears have gone into Bevontule and here's a small montage of the work that we've put in!
 

MTG_Derek

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Hi all! As you know, we're down to the wire on Kickstarter, with around 5 days left. Nearly 3 years of blood, sweat and tears have gone into Bevontule and here's a small montage of the work that we've put in!


Zero sound MTG_Derek


Twas intentional. A lot of these clips come from really old sources, many of them have commentary. I could've muted, then overlaid one of our audio tracks on it, but the video was somewhat of an afterthought, based originally on this post: https://imgur.com/gallery/PIuEn
 

MTG_Derek

Multithreaded Games
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All right, everyone--regardless of what happens with this Kickstarter, I just wanted to thank everyone again for their feedback and comments. The game is not and will never be dead and we'll do what we have to in order to continue its development (animal sacrifices, petty theft, busking--it's all on the table.)

One of the first things--and I think we can all agree here--is that we ultimately need to change the title of the game to something a little more... uh... memorable and 'relevant'. I figured I'd look here first for input, as you guys have generally been pretty good about that.

Just a bit of background: a large amount of the backstory and plot is based on geographical locations called 'Springs', which are kinda like the 'Cenotes' (didn't realize this connection at first) of South America. Briefly, these were used by the original settlers of the main story's continent to dispose of their dead and other 'objects.' Unlike traditional cenotes, however, these 'springs' give back 'something' in return. So to bring the name more in line with one of the larger plot elements of the game, we wanted to use the term "Wellspring", as I think I've mentioned before. The question then becomes, what should the title actually be? Just a bit more info: Wellspring, as it pertains to games, doesn't appear to much in Google searches--notably, in the game Rage and as a casino game (and a few other, really old, circa 2009 searches), so I think it's relatively 'unsullied'--until we get ahold of it of course. I'm not a marketing whiz necessarily, but I've done searches for all of these names--in general, the less results that pop up for each result, the better--I think. This would mean that someone that happened to search for the word would be more likely to see ours. But I could be wrong about that and it might not matter that much at all.

Here are a few suggestions (and by all means, if anyone knows how to turn this into a poll, that'd be awesome):
  1. Wellspring: Altar of Roots (400k results) / Nice, concise and flowy
  2. Wellspring Story: Altar of Roots (1.7m results) / The term 'story' could help searches
  3. Wellspring Saga: Altar of Roots (200k results) / The term 'saga' is referenced a lot, might get sued tho
  4. Wellspring Chronicles : Altar of Roots (200k results) / This is a direct name of a book series--not sure if this should be used at all, but curious nonetheless. I think it sounds great, but a little lengthy (just like this opinion)
  5. Wellspring Tactics: Altar of Roots (20k results) / Some merit to having the term Tactics in the title--not 100% sure on it though. I don't want to pigeonhole the game--Could use some input?
  6. Don't budge! Keep the Bevontule name, ya pansy!
  7. "These all suck" (44m results)
Thanks!
 

Mustawd

Guest
I like 1 and 3 the most. Also like the idea of simply Wellspring Chronicles.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I have tried for months to come up with a better title for my own game and utterly failed, so I cannot help you much.
Changing title is tricky because it makes you lose a lot of the awareness you built with the KS campaign.
I would definitely try to leave Bevontule somewhere in the name.
So something like Wellspring: chronicles of Bevontule could work IMO.
 

MTG_Derek

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I have tried for months to come up with a better title for my own game and utterly failed, so I cannot help you much.
Changing title is tricky because it makes you lose a lot of the awareness you built with the KS campaign.
I would definitely try to leave Bevontule somewhere in the name.
So something like Wellspring: chronicles of Bevontule could work IMO.

While I do see what you mean, we'll have an opportunity to 'bridge' over backers to our other social media pages where they can follow us. It will suck, I'll admit, having to change so many of our different platforms' 'titles', but as far as I can tell, it should be possible with everything I've tried: Steam, GameJolt, Facebook, Twitter, etc. We'll certainly lose some of our previous media 'coverage', but to be honest, I don't think a 'soft reboot' would be such a bad thing necessarily. An example that comes to mind is the ARPG "Wolcen: Lords of Mayhem." Apparently that game used to be called "Umbra" (not sure why they changed it), but they were even funded before changing the name.

Anyone that follows us on Kickstarter will also be able to see that we've previously created a project--not to mention, we can include the name "Bevontule" in other places in our previous pages, even if we have to include a snippet like "Previously known as Bevontule" just for search results. I'm just not sure that leaving Bevontule in the title is necessarily a great thing, since people will still struggle to pronounce it. I do see your point though, and it's something we'll mull over. Thanks for the feedback :)
 
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It HAS to have Tactics in its name so people can easily make the connection as to what this game is. When people see Bevontule, they think it will be another RPG Maker piece of trash and close the window. However when they see Tactics, they envision a spiritual successor to Final Fantasy Tactics and it immediately captivates their interest.
 

Vault Dweller

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Random thoughts:

1) Bevontule tells me absolutely nothing. Companies with massive budgets and media attention can turn a word like Skyrim into a household name but you can't so don't go for it. It doesn't matter what appears in google searches these days, what matters is your visibility on Steam. I'd suggest to drop wellspring and go with The Altar of Roots since that's the name you like the most.

2) Don't waste money on PR hacks.

3) Your KS is your pitch not an info board. Every word should be selling the game. If it doesn't, remove it.

Bevontule is an eclectic fusion of Western, Japanese, and strategy RPGs, with stunning 3D visuals and challenging tactical combat.​
I have no idea what eclectic fusion is but I suspect it might give you aids and thus best to be avoided. Branding your game as a a mix of two vastly different genres won't have a strong appeal to either camp. No indie game has stunning visuals so don't oversell it. Your game looks great, let the screens speak for themselves.

Multithreaded Games consists of a core team of two lifelong friends and Portsmouth, Ohio natives, Derek Bradley and Andy Fenton.​
Don't start your pitch with about us. Imagine you're trying to strike up a conversation with a girl. Would you start it with "So... about me..."? Sell me on your vision first, then tell me about yourself.

If you wish, you can now pledge a higher amount to get additional rewards.​
You're killing me here. I want to know about the game and you're talking about yourself and extra pledges.

Bevontule is a tactical role-playing game that occurs primarily on the surface of the continent of Onich, a vast and isolated landmass surrounding a central ocean known as the Inner Sea. Discovered some 1,500 years ago by a number of refugees fleeing their own war-torn homeland, it quickly becomes clear that – despite its welcoming appearance – Onich harbors dark and deadly secrets that were presumably left alone for good reason.​
No. No, no, no. I don't care when it was discovered and what dark secrets it harbors. I (as in your average KS backer) want to know if I should give a fuck about the game and giving me the brief history of the world is not a good way to go about. If it's mainly a tactical game, then start with tactics. What do you offer to the tactics lovers? If it's a story game with tactical combat, then start with the story. Sell me on it.

In present-day Onich, the continent is slowly being ravaged by a blight known as the Kelvari: an expansive, semi-sentient and root-like network of unknown origin and composition that has already “claimed” nearly 60% of the surface of Onich – primarily in the north and west. At the same time, grotesque creatures known as “Rootsouls”...​
More history. Rootsouls is a bad name. It has to go.

:great concept art:​
Finally! Something exciting.

A gif showing a town devastated by Kelvari​
Not a strong selling point. It looks cool but not cool enough to sell the game.

The player takes control of Bodom, a mysterious person that appears along the western shores of the Inner Sea, allegedly hailing from the northernmost regions of Onich. Claiming the ability to destroy the Kelvari, he quickly finds himself a valuable asset in the ensuing struggle against them – as well as a pawn to the political machinations of regional and continental players. Will you stave off the looming calamity... or unwittingly hasten its arrival?​
I like the hint at choices, the pawn bit, political machinations, etc. Suddenly, the game doesn't seem to be a kill rootsoul monsters action rpg. It's exciting but I had to work very hard to get to that first truly interesting bit of info. I didn't like all that "mysterious person, allegedly, claiming" stuff because it's my character. Either I'm from that region or not, have the ability to destroy or not. It's not a book, so I demand full control over my character's options. I might claim that I can do things I really can't but this should be my choice, not something forced on me by the developers.

Key Features​
Finally. Should have started with them and explained them one by one.

Anyway, you did pretty good. Managing to get 35k isn't a small thing. Now try again and I'm sure you'll do better.
 

MTG_Derek

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First off, thanks for the analysis, really appreciate you taking the time to do so.

Random thoughts:

1) Bevontule tells me absolutely nothing. Companies with massive budgets and media attention can turn a word like Skyrim into a household name but you can't so don't go for it. It doesn't matter what appears in google searches these days, what matters is your visibility on Steam. I'd suggest to drop wellspring and go with The Altar of Roots since that's the name you like the most.

Altar of Roots isn't really the name we like the most--our PR company suggested that we add a subtitle, which made sense. If anything, Wellspring, to us, is a much better name. To be fair, most games tell you next to nothing about the game itself, but admittedly, Bevontule tells you absolutely nothing, y'know, since it isn't even a real word.

2) Don't waste money on PR hacks.

Point well taken--and what a waste it ultimately was.
3) Your KS is your pitch not an info board. Every word should be selling the game. If it doesn't, remove it.

Bevontule is an eclectic fusion of Western, Japanese, and strategy RPGs, with stunning 3D visuals and challenging tactical combat.I have no idea what eclectic fusion is but I suspect it might give you aids and thus best to be avoided. Branding your game as a a mix of two vastly different genres won't have a strong appeal to either camp. No indie game has stunning visuals so don't oversell it. Your game looks great, let the screens speak for themselves.

Point well taken.

Multithreaded Games consists of a core team of two lifelong friends and Portsmouth, Ohio natives, Derek Bradley and Andy Fenton.Don't start your pitch with about us. Imagine you're trying to strike up a conversation with a girl. Would you start it with "So... about me..."? Sell me on your vision first, then tell me about yourself.

If you wish, you can now pledge a higher amount to get additional rewards.You're killing me here. I want to know about the game and you're talking about yourself and extra pledges.

While I'll definitely take credit for things done wrong on our end, the 'About Us' section was not initially at the top of the page--it was only moved there at the behest of our PR company, in an effort to 'tell our story.' And thus, you come to the crux of what makes this so fucking difficult/frustrating--everyone has a different opinion on the relative importance of different pieces of information. We have the camp that wants to know about why we made the game and who we are--we have the camp that wants the plot. We have the camp that wants the tactics/combat, et cetera. We don't show enough concept art--we don't show enough gameplay. We should be as appealing as possible--we should only appeal to tiny subsets. Where does it all end, man?!! This is mostly just me ranting btw, but hopefully, you can see where I'm coming from here in that every single person has a different idea of what the 'selling point' is, and we've learned very quickly to take anything levied at us as an 'absolute' with extreme skepticism. Well, OK, we get a PR company on board, we expect that they should know what they're talking about--right? But then a lot of people will outright say that they're worthless. Not a mistake we'll make again as we've seen it firsthand. Add-ons were not originally there either (we only introduced them midway through the campaign), but having studied a LOT of campaigns, this tends to be generally where they're placed. And don't take this as me saying you're wrong, by any means--you definitely know your shit.

The player takes control of Bodom, a mysterious person that appears along the western shores of the Inner Sea, allegedly hailing from the northernmost regions of Onich. Claiming the ability to destroy the Kelvari, he quickly finds himself a valuable asset in the ensuing struggle against them – as well as a pawn to the political machinations of regional and continental players. Will you stave off the looming calamity... or unwittingly hasten its arrival?I like the hint at choices, the pawn bit, political machinations, etc. Suddenly, the game doesn't seem to be a kill rootsoul monsters action rpg. It's exciting but I had to work very hard to get to that first truly interesting bit of info. I didn't like all that "mysterious person, allegedly, claiming" stuff because it's my character. Either I'm from that region or not, have the ability to destroy or not. It's not a book, so I demand full control over my character's options. I might claim that I can do things I really can't but this should be my choice, not something forced on me by the developers.

Everything else you've said in between was spot on, but I have to reiterate that this isn't the type of game where you are 100% in control of every aspect of your character. (cRPG) It just isn't. It's certainly interactive in the way that a book isn't, but the emphasis here is on a larger plot. And again, you then run into the central problem of presentation of information. This is a plot point that you, personally, found interesting, but you also mention that the background/history is a bad starting point.

Key FeaturesFinally. Should have started with them and explained them one by one.

Agreed.
Anyway, you did pretty good. Managing to get 35k isn't a small thing. Now try again and I'm sure you'll do better.

Appreciate it. If nothing else, we've learned way more from running this campaign than practically any other possible thing we could've done. We certainly aren't the only campaign that's failed initially and we'll use what we've learned (including your analysis) to come back stronger in the future.
 

Vault Dweller

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Altar of Roots isn't really the name we like the most--our PR company suggested that we add a subtitle, which made sense.
I'd operate on the assumption that your PR company knows nothing but means well. I assume you don't pay them tens of thousands of dollars, which makes them bottom-feeders (with all due respect). Anyone who actually knows the business and is good at it would be working for bigger companies and earning a lot more than what you're able to pay.

While I'll definitely take credit for things done wrong on our end, the 'About Us' section was not initially at the top of the page--it was only moved there at the behest of our PR company, in an effort to 'tell our story.'
It works when you sell some crap infused with your own story that makes it more desirable for hipsters or when you're an industry veteran and your name is the main selling point. You're selling entertainment, not your personal story, so don't open with it.

And thus, you come to the crux of what makes this so fucking difficult/frustrating--everyone has a different opinion on the relative importance of different pieces of information.
That's what makes game development so much fun.

We have the camp that wants to know about why we made the game and who we are--we have the camp that wants the plot. We have the camp that wants the tactics/combat, et cetera. We don't show enough concept art--we don't show enough gameplay. We should be as appealing as possible--we should only appeal to tiny subsets. Where does it all end, man?!! This is mostly just me ranting btw, but hopefully, you can see where I'm coming from here in that every single person has a different idea of what the 'selling point' is, and we've learned very quickly to take anything levied at us as an 'absolute' with extreme skepticism.
Exactly right. Everyone is an expert on the internet, present company included. Anyway, now that you see the camps clearly, you need to figure out how to proceed and which camps to target. You can't please everyone, of course, and nobody knows your game as well as you do. Do you want everyone to love it? Do you think it will appeal to everyone? Then make it as appealing as possible. If not, target your niche audience and speak their language. Do you want people to like your game design and be pleasantly surprised to discover that you have a cool origin story or the other way around? Fall in love with the origin story and like the game design because of it? Does your game have both strong tactics and strong plot? Then show both. See, it's actually quite simple :)

This is a plot point that you, personally, found interesting, but you also mention that the background/history is a bad starting point.
Essentially, there are two kinds of RPGs: games where you kill monsters (and the backstory/history hardly matters) and games where you actually play a character (where the backstory matters a lot). Until I hit that bit of info, I assumed it was the former.

If you were to tell me about Conan or Spider-Man, you wouldn't start with a lengthy historical overview, would you? You'd sell me the hero first and what makes him different and interesting. Same here, only in the context of what I'd able to do in-game.

If nothing else, we've learned way more from running this campaign than practically any other possible thing we could've done. We certainly aren't the only campaign that's failed initially and we'll use what we've learned (including your analysis) to come back stronger in the future.
It's the only way to learn and yes, many campaigns failed at first but did much better on their second try. You should post your pitch here and we'll go over it line by line. It will be chaotic and violent, but in the end you'll have a great pitch.
 

MTG_Derek

Multithreaded Games
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Altar of Roots isn't really the name we like the most--our PR company suggested that we add a subtitle, which made sense.
I'd operate on the assumption that your PR company knows nothing but means well. I assume you don't pay them tens of thousands of dollars, which makes them bottom-feeders (with all due respect). Anyone who actually knows the business and is good at it would be working for bigger companies and earning a lot more than what you're able to pay.

While I'll definitely take credit for things done wrong on our end, the 'About Us' section was not initially at the top of the page--it was only moved there at the behest of our PR company, in an effort to 'tell our story.'
It works when you sell some crap infused with your own story that makes it more desirable for hipsters or when you're an industry veteran and your name is the main selling point. You're selling entertainment, not your personal story, so don't open with it.

And thus, you come to the crux of what makes this so fucking difficult/frustrating--everyone has a different opinion on the relative importance of different pieces of information.
That's what makes game development so much fun.

We have the camp that wants to know about why we made the game and who we are--we have the camp that wants the plot. We have the camp that wants the tactics/combat, et cetera. We don't show enough concept art--we don't show enough gameplay. We should be as appealing as possible--we should only appeal to tiny subsets. Where does it all end, man?!! This is mostly just me ranting btw, but hopefully, you can see where I'm coming from here in that every single person has a different idea of what the 'selling point' is, and we've learned very quickly to take anything levied at us as an 'absolute' with extreme skepticism.
Exactly right. Everyone is an expert on the internet, present company included. Anyway, now that you see the camps clearly, you need to figure out how to proceed and which camps to target. You can't please everyone, of course, and nobody knows your game as well as you do. Do you want everyone to love it? Do you think it will appeal to everyone? Then make it as appealing as possible. If not, target your niche audience and speak their language. Do you want people to like your game design and be pleasantly surprised to discover that you have a cool origin story or the other way around? Fall in love with the origin story and like the game design because of it? Does your game have both strong tactics and strong plot? Then show both. See, it's actually quite simple :)

This is a plot point that you, personally, found interesting, but you also mention that the background/history is a bad starting point.
Essentially, there are two kinds of RPGs: games where you kill monsters (and the backstory/history hardly matters) and games where you actually play a character (where the backstory matters a lot). Until I hit that bit of info, I assumed it was the former.

If you were to tell me about Conan or Spider-Man, you wouldn't start with a lengthy historical overview, would you? You'd sell me the hero first and what makes him different and interesting. Same here, only in the context of what I'd able to do in-game.

If nothing else, we've learned way more from running this campaign than practically any other possible thing we could've done. We certainly aren't the only campaign that's failed initially and we'll use what we've learned (including your analysis) to come back stronger in the future.
It's the only way to learn and yes, many campaigns failed at first but did much better on their second try. You should post your pitch here and we'll go over it line by line. It will be chaotic and violent, but in the end you'll have a great pitch.

We'll post it here, but only if you promise that there will be violence!

All joking aside, I really appreciate your insights. You raise a good point about the PR company and how, just like everything else, it's tiered. It's just remarkable to think that we could've done the same thing ourselves for a fraction of the cost--seriously, there are so many websites out there that will push your press releases. We certainly got bamboozled, but as you said, I wouldn't chalk it up to malice necessarily--just the nature of it all.
 

HoboForEternity

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I agree with PR company, especially those who dont have experience promoting niche products.

It is not exctly that they are a scam, but it is really easier to promote something like call of duty than an indie RPGs. Like there is probably not enough source of knowledge on how the market generally workss. hell they might not know what the hell an RPG is. they might have an experience promoting video games, but promoting candy crush is alot easier that promoting age of decadence. also conducting a research of its own is costly and time consuming.

I believe they are just as stumbling in the dark as you would be trying to promote this. A nerd developer have an advantage though, you know your RPGs, you know what kind of people generally play these games. It may be an anecdotal knowledge, but it is still knowledge. "Streetwise" as they said.

Focus one thing on what you think gonna be a selling point, and try to aim the bullseye.

I think alot of advice VD wrote are pretty solid. Well, i can only wish u guys luck and i really want to see this game become a reality.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The PR company certainly means well, it just might be that their frame of reference might not include games enough to understand how to pitch them.
 

80Maxwell08

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A quick word of minor advice. I would avoid putting Saga in your game's name like that example because it may be within striking distance of Square Enix's lawyers. Probably better not to risk that one. Good luck to you guys. If/when you relaunch, I'll give it another look.
 

Mustawd

Guest
One thing I'll also mention is that you need a longer ramp up in terms of hype. People need time to hear about your game and digest that it will be coming to KS. I'd say a good two months of posting some upcoming devlogs prior to the KS is a good rule of thumb. For me, this campaign came out of nowhere.

It can be anything. Maybe start out with an announcement that your game will be coming back to KS. Then show some progress since then...but not all..just a tease. Really, what you wanna do is build awareness of your game. Then the KS will build credibility as well as excitement of your game.

In terms of the KS campaign, remember that the biggest part is building credibility. You want to show a level of professionalism that will convince ppl that you're studio is ready to deliver. I'd look at some successful recent kickstarters to get ideas. Even campaigns that are super above your league can offer glimpses of advice. For example, a lot of the very well done KS campaigns had very polished kickstarter videos. Look at the original PoE pitch for example.

Reallocate expenses form using a PR firm to spend it on some quality camera work. Make it look more professional. Remember, you're not pitching to seasoned professionals, where glitz and glamour are unimportant. You're pitching to everyday consumers. They need to believe in your competence to deliver something professional. So a professional pitch is essential IMO.

Also, this might be controversial advice, but I say ditch the demo. I think Vault Dweller might back me up on this because KS campaigns are all about pitching the potential. Again, backers are not professional developers. Many do not understand the workflow of developing a game. Giving them a demo that is years away from the actual product might sound like an act of goodwill. But in fact all you're doing is giving the impression that your final game will look and play that way.

Finally, I'd say really do your homework on who your potential audience is, and target them accordingly. Sales a lot of times is about volume. Try to reach as many people as you can. Just don't compromise your vision. What I mean is let's say you identify 10 rpg forums or websites. Maybe 2 or 3 are your target audience. However, targeting the other 7, however different they might be, can create word of mouth through sheer numbers. And if your pitch is tightly designed enough, it might attract a few backers here and there, even if the main audience of said forum isn't your typical backer. Of course, for forums that might take a year to join (recetera and Neogaf come to mind), it might behoove you to start that joining process now.

I'll end by saying this. You got around 30k in your campaign, regardless of some stumbles. That is good. Really. Imagine if you have a more polished and focused campaign (and with a better game name). Imagine if you had cast a wider net. Imagine if your pitch video was just a few levels more polished. Imagine if you had built hype up to where a KS campaign wasn't something that felt random for me, but something I was looking forward to. I think if you make some adjustments, the next pitch will go much better. Good luck, regardless.
 
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MTG_Derek

Multithreaded Games
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A quick word of minor advice. I would avoid putting Saga in your game's name like that example because it may be within striking distance of Square Enix's lawyers. Probably better not to risk that one. Good luck to you guys. If/when you relaunch, I'll give it another look.

That's a good point. And not only that, but this whole debacle with Banner Saga / King.com--not really sure if that's something we want to get involved with.


One thing I'll also mention is that you need a longer ramp up in terms of hype. People need time to hear about your game and digest that it will be coming to KS. I'd say a good two months of posting some upcoming devlogs prior to the KS is a good rule of thumb. For me, this campaign came out of nowhere.

It can be anything. Maybe start out with an announcement that your game will be coming back to KS. Then show some progress since then...but not all..just a tease. Really, what you wanna do is build awareness of your game. Then the KS will build credibility as well as excitement of your game.

To be fair, if you follow us on other plaforms (FB, Twitter, GameJolt, etc.) the campaign was hinted at several months in advance and announced about a month/month and a half beforehand--probably still not long enough. That being said, I do agree with you--we already have our eyes on potential launch/end dates, close to September. Not sure if we should start announcing it quite yet, but the sooner the better, you're right.

In terms of the KS campaign, remember that the biggest part is building credibility. You want to show a level of professionalism that will convince ppl that you're studio is ready to deliver. I'd look at some successful recent kickstarters to get ideas. Even campaigns that are super above your league can offer glimpses of advice. For example, a lot of the very well done KS campaigns had very polished kickstarter videos. Look at the original PoE pitch for example.

Reallocate expenses form using a PR firm to spend it on some quality camera work. Make it look more professional. Remember, you're not pitching to seasoned professionals, where glitz and glamour are unimportant. You're pitching to everyday consumers. They need to believe in your competence to deliver something professional. So a professional pitch is essential IMO.

I agree with this as well. Our biggest mistake was spending resources on a PR firm--it's money that could've been better spent elsewhere. That being said, there are a LOT of really bad Kickstarter trailers and the campaigns still end up smashing, so it's certainly not everything. But with a game like ours (and RPGs in general) we don't really have that 'natural appeal', say that a game like Starmancer has, just because of its pixel artstyle and premise. We certainly need to work on the trailer--for our next launch, we'd planned on not showing nearly as much gameplay, and actually showing a Kelvari 'rampage' from the outset. But I really think that trimming the fat on our pitch will be useful--"electic mix etc." is a disaster. Why not just "plot-heavy tactical, turn-based RPG?" Short, to the point, and describes it without trying to appeal to all camps.

Also, this might be controversial advice, but I say ditch the demo. I think Vault Dweller might back me up on this because KS campaigns are all about pitching the potential. Again, backers are not professional developers. Many do not understand the workflow of developing a game. Giving them a demo that is years away from the actual product might sound like an act of goodwill. But in fact all you're doing is giving the impression that your final game will look and play that way.

To some extent, I certainly see what you're saying, but I am firmly in the camp that demos are a good thing. If people can't figure out that 'pre-alpha demo' means that it isn't the final product, then I'm not sure what we could do. And I'll be a little egotistical here, but our demo is pretty damn polished/lengthy for a pre-alpha. Sure, things will change and improve, but the way it 'plays' is pretty established already. And for better or worse, the demo's already out there and it isn't like we can take it away. That being said, having a demo has several tangible benefits:
  1. People know you aren't just blowing smoke when there's something they can play.
  2. We had a lot of backers stumble upon our Kickstarter through playing the demo itself (we had links embedded at certain places in the demo.)
  3. Streamers! Having someone well-established that can play your demo can be worth a lot and we plan to hit this harder next time.
  4. You get more feedback from an increased audience--this doesn't exactly benefit the KS, but is helpful for the product overall.
Now, I won't say it isn't without its drawbacks--notably, you're overriding a potential backer's power of imagination and if it happens to differ too much from what they envision, they might not be onboard. This sucks, but it is an unfortunate reality. I also worry that we're providing 'too much' content already--the game certainly won't be some sprawling 60+ hour affair, but we've shown a mostly complete area in the demo. We'll still make small, incremental updates, QoL changes and bugfixes for the demo, but we don't plan on adding a bunch more content.

Finally, I'd say really do your homework on who your potential audience is, and target them accordingly. Sales a lot of times is about volume. Try to reach as many people as you can. Just don't compromise your vision. What I mean is let's say you identify 10 rpg forums or websites. Maybe 2 or 3 are your target audience. However, targeting the other 7, however different they might be, can create word of mouth through sheer numbers. And if your pitch is tightly designed enough, it might attract a few backers here and there, even if the main audience of said forum isn't your typical backer. Of course, for forums that might take a year to join (recetera and Neogaf come to mind), it might behoove you to start that joining process now.

This is good, solid advice. I think we definitely have an advantage here specifically, since a lot of flegling indie games/KS campaigns (that I've noticed, correct me if I'm wrong) don't tend to be well-received on the codex, in general. Guess you guys are just huge pricks. :D


I'll end by saying this. You got around 30k in your campaign, regardless of some stumbles. That is good. Really. Imagine if you have a more polished and focused campaign (and with a better game name). Imagine if you had cast a wider net. Imagine if your pitch video was just a few levels more polished. Imagine if you had built hype up to where a KS campaign wasn't something that felt random for me, but something I was looking forward to. I think if you make some adjustments, the next pitch will go much better. Good luck, regardless.

This is something we need to remember as well--30k isn't anything to scoff at. I think for our next campaign, we'll aim lower and hope higher. This seems to be what a lot of campaigns are doing these days and it can really pay off from a psychological perspective. If nothing else, we have 650 backers now, and if we even tap half of those, we'll be sitting pretty come Fall.

Thanks again for the feedback!
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,764
Now that was super wholesome. To be honest, that's the main reason this forum has been so helpful to us--you guys simply don't fuck around. It's way better to get legit feedback than have your D S'ed the whole time, so... yeah. Seriously thinking about changing the title as well--my ego isn't so big as to say that yeah, maybe Bevontule isn't the best title. We've often wanted to call it something like Wellspring Saga/Story (can you use the word Saga in a video game these days, does Disney own that?) or maybe just Wellspring (Altar of Roots subtitle would probably stay.) I don't think we've grown so large that changing the title at this point would be a terrible endeavor--I mean, it'll suck, sure, but I've seen this sentiment echoed in many places, and it's likely that we were too 'close' to many of our supporters and they, perhaps, didn't want to hurt our feelings by telling us how... uh... 'not good' of a title it really is. Perhaps it would be worth narrowing our focus as well, maybe lose the 'JRPG' entirely. I mean, yeah.. the influences are there, but maybe people just see it and say, nope, even when the game is not really... a JRPG at all.

Hey man, I've been following this thread since it's inception I just want to say a few things: 1) the name Bevontule sucks. You should change it. Immediately. 2) Yeah, drop the JRPG shit. For us non-pedos, it's a huge turn-off. And your game doesn't appear to share much in common with the JRPG aesthetic, so what you gain by using it is a horrible stigma and what you lose by dropping it is a paltry demographic (if you were you releasing on consoles, i'm sure this calculus would be different).

Re-brand, re-refocus, re-launch. Your game actually looks good, but the material that I - as a 30-something western RPG player - first encounter when I look at your written promo material, does not make me want to dive deeper.

PS: Kudos for dealing with the Codex, this is a hard-nosed group. I wouldn't have heard about your game if not for your activity here. Cheers.
 

MTG_Derek

Multithreaded Games
Developer
Joined
Jul 9, 2016
Messages
105
Well, we did it, fellas--Bevontule is dead. But in its ashes, Wellspring: Altar of Roots has risen. Just a quick post to let everyone know--if an admin can change the thread title at some point, that'd be amazing :)

PS: Kudos for dealing with the Codex, this is a hard-nosed group. I wouldn't have heard about your game if not for your activity here. Cheers.

I think RPGs are just an incredibly polarizing genre in general and it tends to produce very strong opinions. The rules here are also pretty lax and I think those two things combine to create a pretty healthy environment for feedback.
 

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