Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Watchmen sequel/prequel/whatthefuckever coming soon

Discussion in 'Codex Public Library' started by Vaarna_Aarne, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Not gonna post links, anyone who is actually interested has already checked the news out and you can easily Google search. Instead, I'm just gonna chip in and give my opinion.

    In short: I don't give a fuck. I'll assume it's probably gonna be shitty aping of a classic, but if even one of the titles is a good read it was worth it.

    By principle, I don't mind sequels/prequels/whatthefuckever to stories, on one condition: Stay the fuck out of the original classic. And even then, it's only infuriating, but luckily shit will be forgotten and the classic will still be in the shelves and remembered as it was when it came out.

    But what I can't stand is the posturing surrounding this stuff. From both sides (DC folks and mister Moore). I can't stand the talk about "bringing it to a new generation", because that's a load of bullshit and they should know it. The new generation can just buy the original and do the legwork necessary to appreciate it, it's not like it's a work you need to look at from the perspective of the time it was written in. I'd appreciate if they were instead honest and said "I really wanted to write my own take on these characters," "I think I've got an idea for something to do with these characters," "there's still stories left in them," "I really like drawing Rorschach's tight ass" and stuff like that. But the way it is, it's just another move to make some motherfucking money and nothing more. Oh well, maybe one of the people working on the titles is interested in doing something more than a quick publicity pop and cash influx. Maybe.

    On the same note, Alan Moore's steady decline in the public arena continues with his reactions. He only comes off as a self-absorbed egomaniac now, tripping on the fictional notions of his own importance 24/7. And most of all, that unbearable hypocrisy when he goes on and on about "it's not about the money" all the time, when he should just admit he DOES NOT NEED to do it for the money, since he is probably the single richest comic book writer on the planet without any royalties from Watchmen 2 or any other sequel he didn't make. I still consider the man a genius writer, but I just find it sad how he's become such a petty, angry old man who sits in an ivory tower and has pushed away almost everyone who ever loved him, especially considering that it's clear that he used to be a really nice guy back in the day judging by what all his ex-friends have to say about him even after all the abuse he's hurled at them.

    As for the books themselves, I guess I'll check out the Doctor Manhattan series by JMS, since he did a really good job on the subgenre with his Supreme Power series so he might do something interesting with the character. Or then it'll be total shit like his recent comics (I'm looking at you, Superman: Earth One).



    Also, I'm waiting for additional commentary on the news from two other writers: A standard Moore ass-kissing reaction from Warren Ellis, and Grant Morrison putting on sunglasses and saying "deal with it."
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  2. Lyric Suite Arcane

    Lyric Suite
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    The Watchman was already as shitty a film as you can get. I don't understand the rage.
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  3. Ion Prothon II Liturgist

    Ion Prothon II
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    Fallout 2 was already as shitty a game as you can get. I don't understand the rage about Fallout 3.:M
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  4. Lyric Suite Arcane

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    So the rage is about more raping of the original source?
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  5. Roguey Arcane

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    Watchmen wasn't even that good. The ending's a complete wreck and an (acknowledged) rip-off of an Outer Limits episode. :cool:

    I (usually) like Azzarello and Cooke so I'll be checking those out. Fuck JMS I never liked him (edit: wait, I remembered I liked Real Ghostbusters and his 80s Twilight Zone episodes. But nothing since). Wein's the wild card.
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  6. Seymour Educated

    Seymour
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    ... seriously dude, just where the hell do you get this kind of thing from?

    Moore owns a pitiable amount of his work, thanks largely to the good folks at DC comics. He refuses money from movie adaptations (out of principles, nonetheless), which is where most of the big bucks in this subsidiary-screenplay-writing industry comes from (IIRC, Gaiman once said he refused about 4 million dollars for the rights to Coraline when that still meant a fuckload of money to him - meaning it no longer does). He's certainly not poor, but I'd wager he's nowhere near what we think of as rich nowadays.

    Find me a single quote.

    The recently turned corporate shill who harbours a deep-seated resentment towards his better for not being able to turn Miracleman into a transvestite heroin addict is sure to have some priceless thoughts on the matter.
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  7. Slenkar Arcane

    Slenkar
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    hmm I actually enjoyed the Watchmen movie and I hate most superhero movies, and most movies in general,
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  8. Ed123 Arcane Patron

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    Watchmen had some excellent scenes, but was pretty awful when taken as a whole package. Typical music-video syndrome. This will be worth it just for the butthurt, however.
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  9. Random Arcane Patron

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    Mother of God, an Alan Moore fanboy preaching to a former Alan Moore fanboy about how wrong he is?

    It's like I'm in /gd/. Oh wait... it's just its ugly stepcousin.
    gromit Brofists this.
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  10. Forgotten Friend Educated

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    Man it never gets old to hear people raging because their favorite character now has a different hair style or is a boy reporter instead of an undergrad student in the latest prequel or reboot.
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  11. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    I'm way more upset that people are talking about the movie and not the subject matter here, and that we have dumbasses like Lyric Suite pop up.

    Moore was still the highest paid comic book writer back in the 90's, and he had a LOT of work with the folk who paid the best. As a good anecdote, Grant Morrison made enough money to fund globetrotting, partying and puffing magic mushrooms from just THREE issues of Spawn because, as he put it, McFarlane and folks paid over ten times better than anyone else. Moore wrote three SERIES in that period, plus a slew of mini-series and issues. He may not be the wealthiest, but he damn well is in the position to not need any money (keep in mind, he still gets royalties from Watchmen comics sales, Swamp Thing and other stuff, so he doesn't even have to work anymore). If he was literally a bum living on the dole, then I could respect him saying "it's not about the money" all the time. Right now, he needs to have enough honesty to admit that he's in a position where he can worry about other things than money.

    I had a long conversation with Bryan Talbot last Fall, including about Alan Moore, and his relationships with people, and I'm not going to share any of those private anecdotes of a more severe nature here (keep in mind though that mr Talbot also likes mr Moore as a person) out of respect to Bryan. But if you want a good example, check out how he broke up all contact with Steve Bissette over a minor slight Steve was going to apologize for, it's absolutely vicious of Moore to do that.

    I wouldn't consider Morrison anything of a shill either, and it must be remembered that the man is closest to an equal Moore's got, and unlike Moore his quality and productivity has not steadily declined with his advancing age. And what's more, he's a much more kinder (and way more insane) than Moore as a person. The guy hasn't had only bad things to say about ANYONE in Supergods, hell he's probably been apologizing for things he did in the past more than anything in its autobiographical aspect. That's another thing why I've started to prefer Morrison to Moore these days: The guy is more humble and modest. Moore says "everyone is just stripmining my ideas because no one but me has any talent, and I will never write again out of revenge" while Morrison says "I write superhero comics because I love superheroes and will just try to be the best writer I can, and if I get money for doing what I love so much the better." It's to say that Moore has diminished himself from the great man he used to be, too much by now.
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  12. Azalin Arcane Patron

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    I never liked Watchmen or Moore's work on general as much as many people but will probably check Rorschach by Azzarello/ Bermejo and Comedian by Azzarello/ JG Jones not a real fan of Strazynski's comic work so I will skip his titles.I was suprised to see the veteran Wein make a comeback here,maybe I will read his Ozymadias too.The 80+ year old Joe Kubert's presence there was a nice suprise too

    As for Moore himself it seems bitching has replaced comic book writing as his main occupation in the last decade or so so he should go back to worshiping his snake god or just go fuck himself
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  13. Random Arcane Patron

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    So the question is, what makes the writer?

    The ideas he thinks up, or how he conveys them?
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  14. Lonely Vazdru Pimp my Title

    Lonely Vazdru
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    +1.

    There are so many really hateful things to hate, how could one hate this and not explode dead when watching the other super heroes or sci-fi movies ?
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  15. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Not to mention the Watchmen movie was clearly as faithful as the studio and budget allowed it to be. It's a panel-to-panel translation (obviously much was lost in translation nonetheless), and the only way it could have been more faithful was if Zack Snyder had gone to Northampton to suck Alan Moore's dick and film that too for the credits.
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  16. gromit Arcane

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    Darwyn Cooke's New Frontier Before Watchmen: Minutemen strikes me as seeming particularly comfortable and compatible. I'm guessing it's the one set furthest back, and involves characters that weren't already fleshed out beyond the minimum required for the story... so except for awakening the slumbering pitchfork mobs it's not a bad idea. If any of these stories have a remote chance at being a "true" companion piece, rather than just a curiousity or "entertaining story," it's this one.

    Said like a man born after the Cold War, and not outside a major city on the US east coast.

    There are enough other wonderful bits which you don't need to have been in its time and place to appreciate (and there's a lot of hype) so one can latch onto it easily. Even then, to get the most from a lot of those other bits, you need to have grown up in a certain world - design, literature, visual storytelling of one kind or another, comic tropes, etc.

    Even in the technical sense, it's like watching a great movie. I like to think I know a good one when I see it, but I'm jealous of the people who catch all of the nuances, references to other works, and have hands-free orgasms over great editing rather than just a passive appreciation.

    Going off of that, I never thought it was the amazing "get your friend into graphic novels" book it's regularly claimed to be. More accurately, I think it's only that book because people claim it to be. It's dense, it's full of capes, it has a goofy homage stuck in to (needlessly) reinforce its themes. It's full of cliches (both of the time, and of its own making!) in order to deconstruct them. That makes it better the more you already know comics, but otherwise more just like "all that silly stuff" unless you're dealing with someone who thinks the entire industry is Archie.

    Yeah, this would have brought the whole thing crashing down - if it weren't a character piece mixed with self-aware deconstruction. The plot gets too much love; there should be a contest to objectively summarize the story without making it sound retarded. (That's also true of some of my favorites.)
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  17. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    Well, in Supergods Grant Morrison makes a pretty funny characterization of Ozymandias: The World's Most Stupid Smartest Man, and that's relevant to the plot since you're supposed to see that his idea IS retarded but somehow it worked.

    EDIT: And you're absolutely right about the plot NOT being what makes Watchmen great. It's the technical excellence in which it's constructed, and the characters that make it great.
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  18. WalmartJesus Learned

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    I find these prequels unnecessary.You learned more than enough about the characters through the flashbacks and the Hollis Mason "under the Hood" segments. Adding more to the backstory would take away the mystery surrounding the characters as well as missing the whole point of Watchmen



    As for Alan Moore,yeah he's a bitter old pretentious prick...but that's why I like him.He's this outspoken crotchety Anarchist/Occultist that goes to Occupy protests and does Collabs with Stephen O'Malley from Sunn O)))

    asper Brofists this.
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  19. WalmartJesus Learned

    WalmartJesus
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    Oh and if the "Prequels" end up getting bad critical reception...watch DC and the writers go into full damage control: "Herp Derp itz a conspiracy and the haters/reviewers are nuffin but a bunch of Alan Moore fanbois!!" :roll:
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  20. Azalin Arcane Patron

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    I must say that DC missed an opporunity here,they could have given Doctor Manhattan to Grant Morrison but they gave ti to JMS,Morrison could have pulled some crazy shit out of his drug induced hallucinations
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  21. Seymour Educated

    Seymour
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    Funny how people defending a near-Amish old hermit who has basically no voice on the internet against a long ongoing smear campaign (engendered to hype further raping of his work, by the way) from the multi-million dollar giants who robbed him of a shitload of money over a course of many years get to be the fanboys here. Do people really need their monthly fix of shitty comics this much to develop such a surreal level of Stockholm Syndrome?

    Now run along, kiddo. The grown-ups are talking comics.

    Let me get this straight, the guy consistently refuses sums in the millions out of principles, but you can't respect that because he's not dying of starvation as a result? Really?

    As for the rest, Vaarna bro, We've been over this before, and while I don't have your apparent contacts in the industry, from what information is out there which isn't DC marketing spin or the occasional jab from disgruntled past co-workers (from respectable gentlemen such as Rob Liefeld, no less), he seems justified on his grudges, not to mention pretty irreproachable in dealing with them - he never responds in kind to the flat-out insults by Alan Davis, and made it a point to give the copyright of characters Bissette had co-created in 1963 (a comic Bissette dissed a whole fucking lot, by the way), for an example. Did you ever get around to reading the his interview in TCJ #185, to call all that stuff minor slights?

    Now Morrison, the guy owes his entire career to Moore - the second Brit Wave, the whole initial pitch of Animal Man, the fact Moore walked away and made DC rethink a little their slavedriving practices, etc etc. Now he gets to stand tall on his high corporate horse, cash his checks and defend his bosses, but did this kind, nice chap ever apologize for that harmless accusation of plagiarism (as an aside on this, again, do read Lanark, an earlier book than Animal Man by his fellow countrymen Alasdair Gray, to see just what moral high ground he has on calling plagiarism on anyone) to the guy who essentially built his ivory tower by being fucked over?
    Kz3r0 Brofists this.
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  22. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Alan Moore had a lot of sympathy from me... UNTIL he started insulting people and setting himself up on a pedestal. Especially when you remember that he has admitted he hasn't read any comics in over a decade, so he doesn't even know what he's talking about. He DID have a legit beef for a long time, but in the last couple of years he's just lost his side of the argument. I don't think ANYONE had a problem with him until the turning point in his public statements: When he first laid out his "everyone else is shit, everyone else is just copying me, I am the only good comics writer ever" attitude, and that pissed people off. With that attitude, it does mean you're a bit of a fanboy if you don't notice that there's some severe arrogance that needs to be called out there. Similarly, you've got to be a blind fanboy if you don't think all the people Alan Moore has cut off all contact with for trivial reasons isn't a really sad thing.

    The thing with money is that he is doing nothing but getting on his high horse about it nowadays, which is especially jarring now that the original schism was about money. Problem is that he's acting so big about it.

    It's also a bit too much to attribute the entire industry standard change in comics to Moore. In fact, credit for that belongs to Liefeld, McFarlane and Jim Lee, who actually did do something (keep in mind, after the initial protests when Jack Kirby's treatment came to light, Moore went "screw you guys, I'm going home") and did change the way the industry handled the creative people. Now, the comics of that era were soulless shit, McFarlane turned out to be just as bad as the worst of em, but they changed the pay grade (which would never reach the same level due to the 90's comics bubble), creator rights and everything. And in case you're talking about back when Morrison dissed Watchmen, he actually goes over that thing in Supergods. Moore dissed his work back, and Morrison said he couldn't really do anything but take "his own shit back with a smile" since he deserved it.
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  23. Roguey Arcane

    Roguey
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    Morrison said he wasn't interested in doing anything with Moore's characters, but he is doing his own "Watchmen" in Multiversity.
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  24. Random Arcane Patron

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    Oh, you're right, pardon me sir. I mistook your butthurt tone in your earlier post for that of a fanboy's. Now I realize you're actually a very mature and sophisticated person who probably knows much more about comic books than I do. Congratulations.

    I'm sorry, I just can't give a fuck that Alan Moore didn't make all the money he could have, because he obviously doesn't care about the money. I also can't give a fuck about the fact that Alan Moore has a very tiny defense force on the Internet. Alan Moore clearly gives no fucks what other people think, why should anyone give a fuck about that?

    Listen, Alan Moore is a great writer. He did some really brilliant works in the field of comic books. Like plenty of writers and, hell, individuals in all professions before him, he got fingered by the Man. Does that mean he should be free from criticism of his character and personality? Hell no. From the looks of things he's just a bitter old fool.

    I don't understand why you are so defensive about him. Nobody is arguing that he's a bad writer or that he hasn't put forth some of the best works for the medium of comic books. We are not attempting to discredit his skill and talent.
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  25. Vaarna_Aarne Ask me about anime Patron

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    The key part is that he wasn't always a bitter old fool! That's why people are calling him out, because he was the original Cool Comics Guy!

    I'm also kinda concerned that his recent output has been his weakest ever as well, not to mention slow as hell (though with LXG it was due to the fact poor Kevin O'Neill got seriously sick). The less is said about Neonomicon the better, and the newest entry to the League was just a disappointment in all fronts and a fairly pointless entry to the saga.
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