Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #55: New combat trailer, plus the usual physical release drama

[mindx2]

I suppose I see Steam and GOG as very different. You can't even install your game without connecting to Steam whereas I will have an executable from GOG that I downloaded years ago stored on a hard drive, burned DVD or USB stick. I never have to "connect" to GOG again to play my game. That's not true for Steam. I will always prefer GOG over Steam for that very reason regardless if some call/ don't call Steam DRM.

Back on topic: That combat video was very well done and my excitement continues to grow.

You have to log into Gog to download your game so that assertion is incorrect. D:OS for example does not require you to run Steam to play it so in this case your assertion is incorrect.

Benefits of auto-patching, available-from-anywhere install capabilities are compelling IMO, particularly when you pay for your software. It is nice to have an executable on a disk I suppose though it's not like Steam will prevent you from installing anything anywhere you want and as I mentioned already, Gog requires an account, a purchase and a login in order to download your game. You will likely find Gog's new platforms closer to Steam in nature than to the current Gog paradigm. If they continue to make standalone installation media available then that is certainly a plus and an advantage over Steam if that is important to you, however, I am not convinced that really brings value anymore.

You missed my main point: You can't even install your game without connecting to Steam whereas I will have an executable from GOG that I downloaded years ago. I can't just download the game to store on whatever media I choose when it involves Steam. If GOG goes under after Grimoire the apocalypse happens as long as I have a running computer I can install it. If Steam dies... no game to play. It's that simple.

 

[skuphundaku]

I suppose I see Steam and GOG as very different. You can't even install your game without connecting to Steam whereas I will have an executable from GOG that I downloaded years ago stored on a hard drive, burned DVD or USB stick. I never have to "connect" to GOG again to play my game. That's not true for Steam. I will always prefer GOG over Steam for that very reason regardless if some call/ don't call Steam DRM.

Back on topic: That combat video was very well done and my excitement continues to grow.

You have to log into Gog to download your game so that assertion is incorrect. D:OS for example does not require you to run Steam to play it so in this case your assertion is incorrect.

You have to log into GOG and download the kit only ONCE. You cand keep that install kit stored anywhere you want and use to install the game anywhere and any way you want, witout having to ever interact with GOG again. So it is you that is incorrect. In the case of Steam, every time you want to install the game, you have to log in and download the whole thing.

 

[t]

You have to log into Gog to download your game so that assertion is incorrect. D:OS for example does not require you to run Steam to play it so in this case your assertion is incorrect.

Such a nice and obvious troll.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Boiled down, the point of contention is the number of logins and bandwidth consumption over a period of 'years'. Also, the notion of Valve closing Steam's doors and screwing over millions of people is conjecture. It's possible of course and I completely understand your reasons for your preferences - we all have them.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

You have to log into Gog to download your game so that assertion is incorrect. D:OS for example does not require you to run Steam to play it so in this case your assertion is incorrect.

Such a nice and obvious troll.

Yes but I forgive you.

 

[skuphundaku]

Boiled down, the point of contention is the number of logins and bandwidth consumption over a period of 'years'. Also, the notion of Valve closing Steam's doors and screwing over millions of people is conjecture. It's possible of course and I completely understand your reasons for your preferences - we all have them.

No, the point of contention if access and control. Without DRM, the user has complete access and control, with DRM (Steam), the user's access is limited to Steam's use model that is controlled, obviously, by Steam. The question isn't "if" Steam is going to screw over its customers, but "when".

Also, except for Half-Life 2, Portal and a few others, the user isn't even Steam's customer, but the game developer/publisher's customer, so Steam has even less of an incentive to care about the customer. In Wasteland 2's case, the customer (which, in many cases isn't even just a customer but a supporter) isn't fucked just once by the introduction of DRM, but a second time as well by placeing the control of that DRM in the hands of a third party that the customer/supporter has no influence over whatsoever.

 

[sea]

I suppose I see Steam and GOG as very different. You can't even install your game without connecting to Steam whereas I will have an executable from GOG that I downloaded years ago stored on a hard drive, burned DVD or USB stick. I never have to "connect" to GOG again to play my game. That's not true for Steam. I will always prefer GOG over Steam for that very reason regardless if some call/ don't call Steam DRM.

If a game doesn't use Steam DRM, then you can copy and zip up the installed version and do whatever you want with it, forever. Steam also lets you create backup discs or archives in case you don't want to re-download games. It's right there in the menu. This is basically the same as having an installer executable.

An integrated auto-updating platform is nice to have (and auto-updating is very important for games when they will see significant post-release support or are multiplayer games). I don't feel that being asked to verify my purchases of games are legitimate via a login system is especially unreasonable, especially given the additional Value that Steam provides (sales, friends lists, community, guides, cloud saving, achievements, etc.).

If any such system which requires you to authenticate your purchase to receive continued service and support constitutes "malware" then this represents virtually all commercial computer software, including Windows (insert joke about Windows = malware here).

The chances of Steam shutting down and irreversibly suspending my access to my entire games library in perpetuity is statistically infinitesimally less than me having all my games stored on disc and my house burning down. The idea of a centralized login and "download anywhere" policy is very good value to me. Effectively, Steam is free off-site backup for your games.

Beyond that though, I am also entirely in favor of supporting as many options and platforms as possible, and am also very thankful alternatives to Steam exist, precisely because not everyone shares the same opinion and we all value different things.

 

[tuluse]

I suppose I see Steam and GOG as very different. You can't even install your game without connecting to Steam whereas I will have an executable from GOG that I downloaded years ago stored on a hard drive, burned DVD or USB stick. I never have to "connect" to GOG again to play my game. That's not true for Steam. I will always prefer GOG over Steam for that very reason regardless if some call/ don't call Steam DRM.

Back on topic: That combat video was very well done and my excitement continues to grow.

You can copy the wasteland 2 folder anywhere you want and run it.

 

[sea]

You can copy the wasteland 2 folder anywhere you want and run it.

Speaking directly to Wasteland 2, I am not 100% sure what our Steam DRM policy will be post-release. It may be we don't use it at all, that we use it for a short period of time after, that we use it forever, etc. My guess is that it will probably be somewhere in the middle.

Regardless, all backers will have the choice of GOG, which is DRM-free, and new buyers will also have access to GOG, Desura, Humble (if we do a DRM-free version for them, not sure yet), etc.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

The chances of Steam shutting down and irreversibly suspending my access to my entire games library in perpetuity is statistically infinitesimally less than me having all my games stored on disc and my house burning down.

 

[sea]

The chances of Steam shutting down and irreversibly suspending my access to my entire games library in perpetuity is statistically infinitesimally less than me having all my games stored on disc and my house burning down.

That was just an example of any number of "acts of god" that could deny me continued access to my games. What about hard drive failure? Effectively I have to pay every year just to ensure I have working hard drives on a continued basis, more money more often if I want backups. Even then, I've had hard drives fail and I've lost my data. I've had burned CDs melt in the sun and no longer work or otherwise experience data corruption, and new discs and disc drives also cost money. Off-site backup mechanisms cost money via an Internet connection and subscription fees, more if you have a data cap that you exceed.

In other words, data is impermanent, but I think any backup solution Valve has is probably better than what I reasonably want to pay for, and all for the price of free - or heck, you could argue I am saving money for this feature because I have access to Steam sales and can get most games cheaper on Steam than anywhere else. I don't consider this a negative.

 

[mindx2]

You can copy the wasteland 2 folder anywhere you want and run it.

I'm not talking just about W2.

If a game doesn't use Steam DRM

... but many do so my point still stands.

 

[sea]

That's why I think all developers should give people options for a wide variety of platforms.

 

[tuluse]

You can copy the wasteland 2 folder anywhere you want and run it.

I'm not talking just about W2.

There are actually a lot of companies that do this. You only need steam to download it, then you can back it up and never use steam again

Of course, you also need steam to get the updates in this case.

 

[skuphundaku]

I see you're avoiding the issue of the destruction of the secondary market. But, what do you care? It's not like ignoring it is not part of the job description.

 

[Blaine]

The destruction of secondary sales is an important aspect of DRM and digital distribution schemes, yes, and one which I've gone on about at length on the Codex and elsewhere. In fact, I'd guess that choking the reseller's market is the single most important aspect of DRM and digital distribution in the eyes of corporate suits.

That said, Steam sales do adequately (though intermittently) simulate drastically reduced purchasing prices for buyers, although the games obviously can't then be resold unless the account itself is sold.

The sense of entitlement developers and publishers display when whining about the fact that people resell their used games is absolutely disgusting, and makes me want to repeatedly crash my foot through their sniveling fucking mouths until there's nothing left but torn flaps where their teeth and lips used to be. That money (the money they've "lost" to reselling) isn't theirs to claim, despite their hamster-wheel rationalizations; they aren't "losing" anything, as it never belonged to them to begin with. They've simply laid claim to it like spoiled little children. The reason they've bullshitted themselves into this sense of entitlement is simply that strangling secondary sales can be done due to the nature of digital media. Since they can do it, they're gonna do it, and that's that. It should be a given that consumers have the right to resell their reusable purchases.

Of course, another thing that happens due to the nature of digital media is piracy. These contemptible grease stains have the cojones to whinge and squeal about piracy while taking full of advantage of the usurious, exploitative benefits (to them) of digital media. Fuck 'em.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The chances of Steam shutting down and irreversibly suspending my access to my entire games library in perpetuity is statistically infinitesimally less than me having all my games stored on disc and my house burning down.

That was just an example of any number of "acts of god" that could deny me continued access to my games. What about hard drive failure? Effectively I have to pay every year just to ensure I have working hard drives on a continued basis, more money more often if I want backups. Even then, I've had hard drives fail and I've lost my data. I've had burned CDs melt in the sun and no longer work or otherwise experience data corruption, and new discs and disc drives also cost money. Off-site backup mechanisms cost money via an Internet connection and subscription fees, more if you have a data cap that you exceed.

In other words, data is impermanent, but I think any backup solution Valve has is probably better than what I reasonably want to pay for, and all for the price of free - or heck, you could argue I am saving money for this feature because I have access to Steam sales and can get most games cheaper on Steam than anywhere else. I don't consider this a negative.

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/internet...hut-down-without-warning-its-users-98586.html

I'm sure those people also thought their files will be IN THE CLOUD forever.
Well, tough shit, huh, who cares? After all, you're just renting games these days, how long do you want access to them anyway?

Also, bro, you're not working on Valve, do you? Seriously, take it easy on the VALUE ADDED!!!1 People played games way before Steam was invented, so these values are certainly not necessary. Nor it is necessary for Steam itself to exist so you can get those values.

If a game doesn't use Steam DRM, then you can copy and zip up the installed version and do whatever you want with it, forever.

Speaking directly to Wasteland 2, I am not 100% sure what our Steam DRM policy will be post-release. It may be we don't use it at all, that we use it for a short period of time after, that we use it forever, etc.

"It's totally fine, you can do it if a game doesn't use DRM! Not sure if ours won't, though!"

 

[sea]

Yes, cloud backup solutions can fail - which is why ideally every file you back up should have multiple copies (as many as possible). But there is a trade-off to make in how much time, effort and money each person wants to put into that. I do think the possibility of my hard drive(s) failing is greater than any system-wide failure Steam is likely to experience. The rule with backups is always "the more you have, the better."

With Wasteland 2, we are doing DRM-free versions of the game via multiple retailers and we also are providing additional DRM-free discs at additional cost to satisfy users who want those too. You are absolutely welcome and encouraged to use those options.

 

[Davaris]

With Wasteland 2, we are doing DRM-free versions of the game via multiple retailers and we also are providing additional DRM-free discs at additional cost to satisfy users who want those too. You are absolutely welcome and encouraged to use those options.

Well I think its great you guys are sending out DRM free disks to those that want them. If it is only a minority of people that want the disks, then it won't hurt your bottom line. If there are a lot of people that want them, then you will have to change the way you do business. A lot of companies go wrong IMO, when they do what is in their interests and not what their customers actually want. Its good that Brian Fargo understands this.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

1. Once upon a time I was a principled, morally high-grounded zealot of free software. Age and experience have made me more pragmatic. Fight the good fight gents, I have games to play in my free time, I don't mind paying for them and I appreciate that someone else is attributing shit I bought to my account and providing service for money.

 

[mindx2]

Six more days... I have to admit I'm getting excited... :D

 

[tuluse]

1. Once upon a time I was a principled, morally high-grounded zealot of free software. Age and experience have made me more pragmatic. Fight the good fight gents, I have games to play in my free time, I don't mind paying for them and I appreciate that someone else is attributing shit I bought to my account and providing service for money.

:singletearofastallman:

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Indeed. Linux evangelist since 1992. I look back on those days with great fondness. I made a career of Linux, joining a startup in 93' developing network management appliances. From there, through two acquisitions we ended a prime piece of HP Openview, with me moving away from pure systems programming and build environment ownership to consultancy (internal) doing protocol analysis and anomaly isolation. In a twist of fate I ended in an IT group through a couple of major US companies and spread Linux as far as my reach would go. I was a zealot with a /. ID of 4112 and username of Ih8sg8s.

My world is quite different now. I live in boardrooms, PowerPoint and grand strategy. Kids looking at Universities, my wife of 20 years not a lot of time to spare. When I do manage to get time to play a game I just want it to be there and I want it to be good. Between the complexities of my life I no longer have time to fight the good fight. I will cheer those who are but when I have 8 hours a week to give to my entertainment, I am not about to spend that time worrying about delivery methods.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

My world is quite different now. I live in boardrooms, PowerPoint and grand strategy... and on the Grimoire thread.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

My world is quite different now. I live in boardrooms, PowerPoint and grand strategy... and on the Grimoire thread.

I can't resist the absurd