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Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #53: The End Is Coming; Huge Beta Update on Steam

JarlFrank

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If it weren't for GOG, boxed copies would be the only way to retain some "ownership" of the game.

and you value that? it's important for you to "own" something? it's more important for you to "own" something than for the people who made it (...all assuming rights haven't shifted across the corporate shitosphere in the meantime, which they probably have) to continue making money on it? ownership is bullshit. availability and revenue and revenue are the only two logistical elements that matter. if you're obsessed with "owning" something, not just "having" it, then you're...yeah. meds. medication. for you. right now.

So, crawlkill confirmed as a crazy communist?

I like it when I will always be able to install and play a game I paid money for, anytime, anywhere, as often as I want, no restrictions, no online activation, no binding to an account. This is what boxed copies (used to) offer (there is the travesty of boxed copies requiring Steam registration, which is bullshit) and what GoG offers now. This is why GoG is and always will be superior to Steam, and why I tend to pirate Steam-required games, with few exceptions.
 

crawlkill

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and why I tend to pirate Steam-required games, with few exceptions.

yep, you're definitely an ethical consumer. the only situation in which pirating a product you could afford is defensible is when acquiring the product is somewhere between difficult and impossible (I'd also accept "when the people who made it are no longer getting any value from the sale," but that's basically not until they're dead--even if the IP is in someone else's hands, prominent sales of an older game can earn them recognition, which is career-enhancing). if your standard of "difficult" is "being on Steam," you're just being an obscene individualist, rejecting an exceptional platform for no reason other than contrariness. I--

just realized I'm tired of arguing about this. the only thing pettier than boxes is giving a shit if people like boxes. if boxes had no cost, no impact, I wouldn't mind; it's just that I see them having a small-but-visible negative on the products they box. that makes no sense to me, but whatever. it's going to go on whether I like it or not. I just hope that the people who run Kickstarters amply plan for the apparently-startling cost of physical shipping. that's all that really matters to me, really: that they get compensation in line with the extra effort. if they do, then other concerns are pretty secondary.
 

JarlFrank

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Yes, and we all repeatedly stated how we would gladly pay much more for boxed copies than we would for a digital copy, so that the dev actually makes more profit on the box than on the download. We're "stupid" like that.

So you should have no problem at all with us boxfags.
 

FeelTheRads

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By the way, about 1.5-1.7 millions of W2's funding comes from the digital tiers from about 16000 people. More than half their funding.
Now, since it's a special case, let's leave aside the fact that it won't be inXile but Deep Silver who pays for those.
So, let's assume that the rewards themselves cost 30% of that, but I really doubt that. Probably much less. And of course we also had to pay extra for the shipping.

But say it's 30%. That means inXile got about 1190000 from physical tiers.

Now let's see how much they would've got if those 16000 people only donated as much as captain planet here. If they would've even donated that and not only $15.

16000x30=480000

Less than a half of what the physical tiers brought in even after considering a big chunk has gone on producing those goods.
Yeah, I can see how they're not profitable and crawlkill saved W2 with his pizza money. :lol:

Seems to me , crawlkill, that you don't like Kickstarters to make more money because it might mean they delay the release and you don't get to play the game when you want to. Very egotistical.
So, until you're going to pay $100 or more for a shitty download you should be ashamed of yourself.

P.S. About half of Torment's funding also comes from physical tiers.
 

crawlkill

Kill all boxed game owners. Kill! Kill!
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let's make up some numbers! those will definitely make us right, and not extinction-bound fetishist relics of the past at all!

seriously, though, this is so far past boring it's...boring.
 

Darkzone

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Based on the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter of 61,290 backers and $2,933,252 pledge with the numbers from the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter page:

Code:
Digital only:
Backers:              Pledge:             Dollar sum:      
32,781                $15                 $491,715
8,828                 $30                 $264,840
2,274                 $55                 $125,070
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sum backers:          Mean pledge:        Sum of donations:
43,883                $20.09              $881,625
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Physical with all boxes editions:
Backers:              Pledge:             Dollar sum:    
7,967                 $50                 $398,350  
1,131                 $75                 $84,825
5,218                 $100                $521,800
407                   $150                $61,050        (T-Shirt edition)
776                   $150                $116,400      (Coin Edition)
1200                  $250                $300,000
172                   $500                $86,000
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sum backers:          Mean pledge:        Sum of donations:
16,871                $92.965             1,568,425
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The extreme physical people:
Backers:              Pledge:             Dollar sum:  
147                   $1000               $147,000
2                     $2000               $4,000
13                    $2500               $32,500
9                     $5000               $45,000
12                    $10000              $120,000
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sum backers:          Mean pledge:        Sum of donations:
183                   $1904.371           $348,500
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summed up the physical backers:
Backers:              Pledge:             Dollar sum: 
16,871                $92.965             $1,568,425
183                   $1904.371           $348,500
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sum backers:          Mean pledge:        Sum of donations:
17054                 $112.375            $1,916,425
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plus around $135,202 for international shipping costs.
Some 353 have pledged some money not belonging to any tier. (Perhaps so around 1$.)
60937 backers with a amount of $ 15 and above.

$2,798,050 kickstarter revenues without the shipping costs.
$2,051,627 revenues from physical tiers backers with the international shipping.

The digital only tier people made up to 71.6% of all the backers and contributed to 30.06% of the entire pledged money.

The physical tier people made up to 27.825% of all the backers and contributed to 69.94% of the entire pledge money.

Fictional Kickstarter revenues based on amount of backers, if only for the digital tiers a pledge would be possible:
60,937 x $20.09 = $1,224,224.33

Fictional Kickstarter revenues based on amount of backers, if only a pledge for the normal (without extreme backers) physical tiers would be possible:
60,937 x $92.965 = $5,665,008.20

Fictional Kickstarter revenues based on the physical tier backers and if the digital tiers had to pledge for the $50 physical tier and half of them would be from europe:
$2,051,627 + $2,194,150 + $329,122.50 = $4,574,899.50

If a collectors edition box cost less than $70 in production, then we can state that the normal box buyer has contributed $2 more than a normal digital download buyer at the Kickstarter. Further Brian Fargo has stated few times that by using Deep Silver they could free up to few $100k from the physical kickstarter rewards. This validates the statement from FeelTheRads. If only the Kickstarter digital tiers would be possible then Wasteland 2 would only have $324,224 more than the necessary amount. If only physical tiers could have been possible than the numbers of the backers would be significant less, but it would still be at least two times the necessary amount.
 

twincast

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and you value that? it's important for you to "own" something? it's more important for you to "own" something than for the people who made it (...all assuming rights haven't shifted across the corporate shitosphere in the meantime, which they probably have) to continue making money on it? ownership is bullshit. availability and revenue and revenue are the only two logistical elements that matter. if you're obsessed with "owning" something, not just "having" it, then you're...yeah. meds. medication. for you. right now.
So all hail our corporate overlords as long they are climate-neutral?
:hmmm:
 

twincast

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How about a good book or Chess or "Mensch ärgere dich nicht", instead of wasting precious electricity on computer games.
British Ludo would be the derivative of Indian Pachisi closest to German Mensch ärgere dich nicht (and American Parcheesi the closest to Swiss Eile mit Weile). /random factlet
 

crawlkill

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this is fascinating and well-presented, but I put it to you there are several (possible) flaws in the conclusions:

we don't know how much the physical production and shipping cost. it can be seriously ruinous. one of the Kickstarter postmortems I mentioned (No Security) having bewailed their physical rewards was a "shipping and handling included" version of a figurine, which the Kickstarterer promised to eat shipping and handling on. admittedly, that tier was a totally ridiculous $25, and I think corporate/experienced Kickstarterers would never offer a "S+H included" tier at that level. but I also don't think it's cool when people are ruined because they try to be charitable and then discover than the triple-digit S+H charges on their double-digit pledges are what they are. the implication, in No Security's case, is that shipping alone would often cost over $25. he was already in contact with the sculptor and knew what the flat and per-unit cost would be.

it also makes an assumption about how people would've behaved at "digital-only" tiers if there had been no physical tiers available. weren't most of the high-end rewards to do with inclusion in the game? I haven't reviewed their tiers lately, so maybe I'm wrong. was that data from rewards chosen, or from contribution levels?

if what the boxhabbers value is permanence, then they'll get a way longer lifespan injecting their names into the game somewhere than they will owning a hard copy. and more people will know! it's like sitting on the -popular- shelf, not just the shelf no one sees.

there's sort of a conflation of values here. that may be the fundamental misunderstanding. some people value--uh--well, I want to say "the content" or "the message versus the medium" again, but I'll say "the style." I value games that reward me when I pay attention, punish me when I'm glib, and where that behavior propogates--choices and consequences, basically. Other people seem more to value the aesthetic of the RPG, the spiral-bound Baldur's Gate manual and the abstruse attention to detail even where it didn't matter. I have to admit: That spiral-bound Baldur's Gate manual was some sexy shit, when I were a lad.

I think both of those qualities, the "dialogue-oriented branching experience" and the "weird mechanic-oriented early 90s peripherals experience," have been conjoined in some minds. I always liked the other, but it's the one that matters to me, and saying the one is worthless without the other (which has been said in this thread, so, like, this is no straw man) is--not healthy. it just isn't. how many hours will you spend in the game (assuming it's any good), as opposed to how many hours you'll spend with the cloth maps (TM)?

How about a good book or Chess or "Mensch ärgere dich nicht", instead of wasting precious electricity on computer games.
British Ludo would be the derivative of Indian Pachisi closest to German Mensch ärgere dich nicht (and American Parcheesi the closest to Swiss Eile mit Weile). /random factlet

as a German speaker unversed in the other Germanic languages with only a deutsches Fenster an the relatives, "Eile mit Weile" is so much better than the name of any German board game (or possibly just "product" I've ever encountered)
 
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Darkzone

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British Ludo would be the derivative of Indian Pachisi closest to German Mensch ärgere dich nicht (and American Parcheesi the closest to Swiss Eile mit Weile). /random factlet
Interesting didn't knew this about Pachisi. But no wonder indian culture is one of the oldest and richest in the world. Many things came to us from india over persia and the arabic world. We call our numbers arabic but in fact they are from india. The indian math lacked only one thing: the infinity, while they had the eternity.
 

Jasede

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Yes, and we all repeatedly stated how we would gladly pay much more for boxed copies than we would for a digital copy, so that the dev actually makes more profit on the box than on the download. We're "stupid" like that.

So you should have no problem at all with us boxfags.
I don't think you have a concept of how expensive it is to offer boxes, how incredibly unprofitable. If they were to offer boxes and get shelf space in today's market of dying brick and mortar stores you could reasonably expect the boxed version to cost, oh, three times as much as a digital one. Now maybe you and some collectors might be willing to shell out that kind of money but it's a great way to run a company into the ground.

Also keep in mind it's very hard to judge how many boxes they are going to need. Any boxes not shipped are a big loss.
 

JarlFrank

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If they were to offer boxes and get shelf space in today's market of dying brick and mortar stores you could reasonably expect the boxed version to cost, oh, three times as much as a digital one.

What about selling the collector's edition boxes only over online vendors like amazon? Most people tend to buy games this way rather than going to a shop and browsing the shelves, anyway. That would be less expensive, wouldn't it?
 

Jasede

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NOT selling them in stores is even LESS profitable. Do you have any idea what it costs to manufacture these things, particularly in the limited runs you would need for a Kickstarter or something? It's a MASSIVE drain on any Kickstarter and we'd be better off without it.

I /love/ boxes, but they are simply not viable to produce UNLESS you make them only available for like 5 times the base price of the game.
 
Weasel
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And yet people keep offering them so obviously they've done their sums and $100 or whatever is enough to cover it and make a decent profit. The signed copies for double the money or whatever are obviously profitable. Some of the very early kickstarters got their sums wrong when they were offering physical versions for much less.

And Obsidan and Inxile aren't paying a cent (directly) for the boxes. Deep Silver are handling that as part of the deal to distribute the retail versions for Inxile. Paradox are doing it for Obsidian as part of their broader agreement.

But what I think is a good idea for v. small devs is the suggestion I've seen from a couple of recent projects, where they are aiming to do a kickstarter for boxes etc after the game is complete. So everyone can back a digital tier to get the game done, then they can cater to collectors etc after release. If there's not enough interest then it doesn't go ahead. They miss out on the big sums that Inxile/Obsidian got from physical tiers but for v small projects it may not be worth their while anyway.
 

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NOT selling them in stores is even LESS profitable. Do you have any idea what it costs to manufacture these things, particularly in the limited runs you would need for a Kickstarter or something?

Yes, I do. It isn't nearly as expensive as you make it seem to be.

If the developers can't make it happen without making losses, the problem is their incompetence, not of the "high manufacturing costs". It is acceptable to admit that you are incompetent, this sort of stuff doesn't belong in the game developer portfolio in the first place. But if they have no-one to run this sort of project, there are plenty of partners that can make it happen for them. Just take that additional cost into account when pricing your pre-orders.
 

Darkzone

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More nonsense from me.

Jasede
Digital game version cost nearly nothing besides the fees for Steam, GOG or Kickstarter (that are deduced on sale) and some management costs for the developer. The physical goods management is much more complicated as you have indicated, but we are talking about the Kickstarter, where a company knows how many they will sell. Therefore the not sold goods are not a problem, more the necessary overhead for damaged goods and not delivered goods and etc. And your statement that a physical editions are much more risky is true. But a smart developer knows this things, and also how to calculate the necessary amounts. And this is not a school for ants.


Cost evaluation for everything should be made before the Kickstarter, this knows every smart man. And a enterprise, company or a project has to make money. Charity is something that comes after the profit and not before. The previous data had to be chosen for the contribution tiers at the Kickstarter of Wasteland 2. Because of the simple form of a Kickstarter it can be very well evaluated, while Torment is much more complicated but also more interesting it is not possible in that manner. And in the future the next Kickstarter from inXile will be even more like Torment, and much more free for the choice of digital and physical goods more modular like torment in its end phase. (At least i hope so.)
As the time changes like the people, the overall desires and willingness for a digital tier / goods will be much higher than the for the physical goods. There is the logic of the high numbers, indicate a preference between backers towards a specific buying custom. Lets take a look at other Kickstarters, like Project Eternity:


Code:
Digital:
$20     25,004 (all gone)  $500,080
$25     20,922             $523,050
$35     8,394              $293,790
$50     5,728              $286,400
$80     769                $61,520
$110    792                $87,120    (2xPoE)
$165    972                $160,380   (2xPoE, W2 and PoE:Exp 1)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Backers:     Mean in $:    Sum in dollar:
62131        $30,78        $1,912,340

Physical:
$65     3818              $248,170       ($15 * 3818 = $57,270) 
$100    1041              $104,100       ($20 * 1041 = $20,820) (T-Shirt)
$140    3496              $489,440 (CE)  ($20 * 3496 = $69,920) (T-Shirt)
$250    1746              $436,500       ($30 * 1746 = $52,380) (T-Shirt)
$350    30 (all gone)     $10,500        (-)                    (Bag)
$500    367               $183,500       ()                     (T-Shirt)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Backers:    Mean in $:    Sum in dollar:  Shipping cost:
10498       $140,23       $1,472,210      $200,390

Slightly crazy backers:
$750     29 (all gone)    $21,750
$1000    114              $114,000
$1000    49 (all gone)    $49,000
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Backers:    Mean in $:    Sum in dollar:
192         $863,28       $165,750

Mega crazy backers:
$3000     7               $21,000
$5000     3               $15,000
$5000     5               $25,000
$10000    5               $50,000
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Backers:    Mean in $:    Sum in dollar:
20          $5500         $110,000

All physical backers:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Backers:    Mean in $:    Sum in dollar:
10710       $163.21       $1,747,960

Project Eternity now called Pillars of Eternity shows a clear distinction between digital only tiers and physical tears backers:
Digital tiers beckers have the tendency to buy the games on kickstarter, because they can get it cheap there. Around the 54390 backers were digital tier backer ranging between $20 and $35 tiers
and made up 73.51% (the A digital group) of all backers contributing $1,316,840, which is $24.21 per person and around 33.03% of the Kickstarter money. (Here is the analogy to Wasteland 2 Kickstarter.)
While Wasteland 2 was still very simple form, the PoE had already much more to offer and different tiers, therefore there are 7,741 digital tier backers more which contributed additional $595,500.
The digital tier backers made up around 83.98% (A and B digital group) of the backers they paid around 47.96% of the Kickstarter money.

Physical tiers backers want to have mostly more then just the game and are therefore willing to pay more. Over half of the physical tier backer did choose the Collectors edition.

Obsidian had from the average digital tier backer $27.65 and from a average physical tiers (without the crazy) backer $126.21 (shipment cost not included) and
if we substract the cost for the 6650 T-Shirts ($100 physical tiers and higher), we can state surly that $93 (average digital tier payment and t-shirt price substracted) per (10498)
person should be more then sufficient to produce 4859 normal and 5639 Collectors Edition boxs, and still make a profit on this boxes.

The 10,710 (crazies inclusive) physical tier backers made up around 14.48% of all backers and contributed for around 48.87% of the PoE Kickstarter.
This constitutes in such way: $1,747,960 + $200,390 for shipping an additional $126k has been made in digital and physical Add-Ons.
It is to be expected that Obsidian made a win on all the physical goods that they did offer.

There is a steady decline (trend) in the physical tier backers for this projects W2 had 17k physical backers, PoE had 10,710 and T:ToN has only 8,423.
In DOS it reached its till now deepest value of 1360 physical backers or 6.97% but still made up to 24.01% of all the Kickstarter revenues.
The future is looking not very good for the boxes, it will be certainly more a series production for the boxes of around 5k-10k pieces which are more expensive for the collectors,
and the rest will be digital. And a remaining small rest that was not sold on Kickstarter, will be offered on amazon or sold through the developers own shop.
Perhaps Deep Silver will jump in, if the Kickstarter indicates that people want to buy a boxed version, to further lower the costs of the production for the boxed versions.

So yes i do not contradict your statement, that this is a slowly regressing market, but i believe that collectors editions and small amount of normal edition will still remain.
And in my case will behave like always and buy collector's editions for certain products, and digital edition in the rest of the cases.
 
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FeelTheRads

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If they were to offer boxes and get shelf space

If? That's what they actually do. Not only did they have boxes for BOTH of their Kickstarters, they will also have boxes in real stores.

So, either they're wrong or you are.
 

crawlkill

Kill all boxed game owners. Kill! Kill!
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physical tears


this is onea them Freudian typos.

if the world's a sensible place, and we can only hope that it is, people who have nostalgia value over boxed editions and physical goods generally will continue to either get over themselves or die out. hard-shipped goods will probably continue to get more and more expensive--fewer buyers, higher price, y'know. convenience is generally the victor over other factors, and downloads are about as convenient as it gets.

ideally, yes, project managers would plan out the price of the enterprise well, but here's the thing: mistakes get made. shipping, in particular, is incredibly volatile--I've read reports of shipping prices increasing by a factor of three between Kickstarter and release. you're really rock-and-hard-placed at that point: do you eat the shipping cost, even though it makes that sale significantly unprofitable? do you tell the customer they need to pay it, even though that potentially permanently damages your relationship with them? nobody wants to be stuck there, and people running crowdfunding campaigns aren't always savvy enough to provision for that.

I bought an audio cable off of Amazon the other day. cost less than $5. standard shipping was free. if I switched it to the second-shittiest shipping option instead? $30. that was for, like, "guaranteed five-day delivery." of an essentially weightless object. moving things around this ball of mud we call home is obscenely expensive. someone has to pay for it, and it's not always practical, in a "pay early, receive late" system like Kickstarter, to have that price go to the consumer.

if it were a perfect world and we could make perfect plans, then boxes would be merely recidivist and obnoxious, not actually dangerous. as is, they're a huge risk to the developer, and they hurt the consumer, too, because the developer needs to devote a huge amount of time to managing the logistics, even if they can pull off a profitable operation.
 

Darkzone

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physical tears
this is onea them Freudian typos.

if the world's a sensible place, and we can only hope that it is, people who have nostalgia value over boxed editions and physical goods generally will continue to either get over themselves or die out. hard-shipped goods will probably continue to get more and more expensive--fewer buyers, higher price, y'know. convenience is generally the victor over other factors, and downloads are about as convenient as it gets.
That is what i basically said with the addition of the numbers, and wrote it explicit in the text. My not scientific theory: The last boxes will be the collectors editions for over $150, and with production numbers around 5k-10k.
And i don't know who should whine about it, it is a simple development. We can indicate and evaluate trends and etc, but we honestly don't know how this entire thing will turn out. And while its final conclusion is not drawn, everything is only a speculation.

ideally, yes, project managers would plan out the price of the enterprise well, but here's the thing: mistakes get made. shipping, in particular, is incredibly volatile--I've read reports of shipping prices increasing by a factor of three between Kickstarter and release. you're really rock-and-hard-placed at that point: do you eat the shipping cost, even though it makes that sale significantly unprofitable? do you tell the customer they need to pay it, even though that potentially permanently damages your relationship with them? nobody wants to be stuck there, and people running crowdfunding campaigns aren't always savvy enough to provision for that.

if it were a perfect world and we could make perfect plans, then boxes would be merely recidivist and obnoxious, not actually dangerous. as is, they're a huge risk to the developer, and they hurt the consumer, too, because the developer needs to devote a huge amount of time to managing the logistics, even if they can pull off a profitable operation.

Physical goods are for not for small indies, they cannot compensate any miscalculation. While the great ones like EA want to maximise their revenues, for them it can very well pay off to have boxed edition. But we don't know how they calculate their prices. But normally it is that the more you produce, the lower the production cost for the piece, the same applies to transport costs. And normally the manager includes a margin, for increase in costs. If i would send a 2kg package to USA, i would pay around 16 euros, if 'die Firma' is sending it, it costs them below 8 euros. So if Obsidian would demand $12 for shipping then we can assume that this is around 50% more than they would actually would pay at a certain time point.
The boxes are also for customers who are not used to buy online or digital things. The grandpa wants to put something under the christmas tree for his grandchildren.
 

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