Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #53: The End Is Coming; Huge Beta Update on Steam

[Tigranes]

In crawlkill's world, all food would be served on recycled paper trays, sex would always occur in a white sterilised room equipped with standard issue condoms, sport broadcasts would begin on the exact second of kickoff, weddings would take place in a citizen registration booth, and churches would be replaced by a wide, nondescript hall with spikes built into the floor corresponding to the number of participants.

But since the definition of 'actual good' and 'actual service' which is worth the bother is entirely arbitrary, the logical corollary would be that activity such as games would be eliminated entirely in favour of more productive and meaningful occupations. Similarly, if crawlkill were a principled man, he could never post on the Codex ever again.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Yes, I think we've all learned a lot here today. And that's what the Codex is famous for, after all.

I now have this image of the noble crawlkill saving the planet by living in a grass hut, with only one pair of handmade clothes to save on carbon emissions and cotton pesticides. And a computer he plays adult games on.

And I feel bad because I recently ordered some books from Amazon. And they came in a box. A big nasty cardboard box, not a small game box that you say we can fuck. The societal cost was immense. And after I read those books they'll probably go on my shelf where people will look at them, when all along I should have been reading them on an e-reader made in China.

Still, all is not lost. I figure I can offset those carbon emissions by cancelling my donations to that child-feeding program in Ethiopia. After all, population growth is the biggest problem this planet faces. And every extra head means more carbon emissions. Which are bad.

Thanks for setting me straight bro, sometimes it's easy to be selfish and just look out for our own immediate satisfaction.

 

[crawlkill]

we live in a world where people can moan for ludditism on a lightspeed communication network

where people can use the tools of futurism to worship the past

you guys got some sick kinks

you should go back to using letters to correspond. everyone knows a message isn't worth anything if it doesn't come in an envelope.

 

[Darkzone]

"it's mint in the box" -someone who doesn't understand that goods exist to be used, not to be owned

Now that is communism, and it failed utterly. And the statement: "the medium is not the message" is also not correct, and nomatter how often you repeat it, it will stay false, like a lie.
Tigranes has accurate guessed the message of the medium.

Zorba the Hutt
You forget one important thing, in Ethiopia overall the energy balance and therefore the carbon emission is much lower. A better but also evil solution would be to kill an US citizen, his carbon emission values, are at least 900 times higher than the of one ethiopian.

Energy is only a problem if we continue to use it from fossil sources. I think that i'm the only here who loves atom, bio and wind energy at the same time.

 

[crawlkill]

yes. you're right. when we play Fallout as downloaded through Steam, it's just not the same as when we play Fallout as installed through disks.

only...it, like...it is.

no matter how many times you say it isn't...you're just...not...correct. like...you personally may be mentally ill? you personally may think that the game is not the same game when it's delivered one way and not the other? but you're just factually incorrect. it is the same. seriously.

what you need is a Pepsi Challenge of installations. we'll have you sit through Torment twice and tell us which one was the GoG install and which one was installed from fifteen-year-old disks. I'm super sure you'll be able to tell. we'll also ask you if you were still able to enjoy the game without the box on your shelf. if you say no, we will attempt to find you a prescription.

Infinitron can you change the name to boxcodex.net for a day it seems to be what the people want I'd like an extensive review series on boxes why does no one ever address the box in their reviews what is it with these boxless peasants don't they box box box box

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

everyone knows a message isn't worth anything if it doesn't come in an envelope.

I like envelopes. They prevent the pesky butler from reading my messages when he brings them to me on a tray during cocktail hour.

 

[crawlkill]

everyone knows a message isn't worth anything if it doesn't come in an envelope.

I like envelopes. They prevent the pesky butler from reading my messages when he brings them to me on a tray during cocktail hour.

so I assume the point of the box is to keep the NSA from reading your mind while you download a game

 

[Tigranes]

OK, to be a bit more serious: I too don't care very much about boxed games, because it's one of those instances where the paratextual accompaniment (the box) matters very, very little. The 'medium' in this case is primarily the actual software, not the packaging. Darkzone I doubt McLuhan himself would call the box of a boxed game 'the medium'. The box is not comparable to whether you get your letter by mail or electronically, it's more like getting your letter delivered by a messenger boy or by the institutionalised postal system.

At the same time, to dismiss such 'packaging' in general as useless shit that has nothing to do with the 'actual' good/service is actually very naive. If we were talking business, then the history of business shows that such 'packaging' is often critical to experience and to consumer perceptions of value (which is partly why so many people paid so much for KS physical rewards in the first place). If we were talking about personal consumer decisions & enjoyment, the enjoyment associated with getting a paper manual, or opening the shrinkwrap on your music CD, or preparing your dinner beautifully on a nice dish, is not intrinsically any more 'artificial' than the enjoyment of playing the game or eating the food. One might question just how much one should be paying for it, of course, but again, capitalism would dictate, that's up to each consumer. Finally, if we were talking about it from some utilitarian viewpoint of what is truly 'worthwhile' use of your time, etc., then as I say, stop playing games immediately.

I would have thought those gigantically obvious points were, well, obvious enough not to bear saying, and I'm still pr. sure crawlkill just really needs some KKK

 

[crawlkill]

the history of business shows that such 'packaging' is often critical to experience and to consumer perceptions of value

1) the history of business is essentially irrelevant when discussing the future of business, as the internet and the proliferation of purely digital goods has completely changed and will continue to completely change the marketplace

2) the aesthetics of presentation are anything but lost on digital goods, which are just as invested in graphical art, web design and marketplace setup as are any brick-and-mortar/shipped goods. Steam is a far more attractive storefront than any Gamestop.

3) the game vastly, -vastly- outlasts its packaging. to fetishize--and yes, I AM going to keep using that word, because that's exactly what it is--the "unboxing" is to diminish the entire rest of the lifespan of the product. to suggest that a game you can't hold in your hands is worthless--which, if you haven't read the thread, is EXACTLY what's been suggested here, repeatedly--is to suggest that a game that's no longer physically commercially available (like, I don't know, every single title that the Codex venerates) is worthless. you can't say the one without directly implying the other.

goods are evaluated as wholes. to obsessively focus on one part of them--a part not related to the long-term experience and impact of the product--is seriously sick shit.

I don't understand how anyone can disagree with this. "it didnt hads a box i cannot liek it"

 

[crawlkill]

like, seriously. imagine if Wasteland 2 completely revitalizes the genre of C&C turn-based dialogue-heavy gaming. imagine if it's revolutionary. imagine if it outdoes everything in its class. now imagine if it didn't do a boxed edition. imagine how you'd sound saying "well, sure, it did completely turn the industry around, it -was- the coolest thing I'd sunk free time into ever, it -has- stayed with me, but it didn't even come in a box! 0/10"

this is how these fuckwads sound to me. maybe they don't sound that way to you?

 

[Darkzone]

Tigranes I did only addressed the falsehood of an overall statement, which cannot be generalised to such an understanding.
As the medium is between a source and sink, it dependes on the sink how it wants to recive the message from the source. And up to the source what channels it sends it's message. Therefore by the choice of the channel the source is generating a message. In normal terms: if the player wants to have a box, and does not want to download a game from steam or gog, then it is up to him.
And think what a message this would be if inXile or Larian would state in its Kickstarter that the game can be only downloaded via steam.

 

[mindx2]

to suggest that a game you can't hold in your hands is worthless--which, if you haven't read the thread, is EXACTLY what's been suggested here, repeatedly--is to suggest that a game that's no longer physically commercially available (like, I don't know, every single title that the Codex venerates) is worthless. you can't say the one without directly implying the other.

goods are evaluated as wholes. to obsessively focus on one part of them--a part not related to the long-term experience and impact of the product--is seriously sick shit.

I don't understand how anyone can disagree with this. "it didnt hads a box i cannot liek it"

But you're exactly wrong. That's not what's being said. The appeal of a boxed version is more than just having the "game on a disk." It's the other pieces that come with it as well. It is all part of whole experience that includes the box art, the manuals, maps, trinkets, etc. that gives it that tactile realness. Again, you seem to ignore that it is all part of the presentation that helps create a better experience. Yes, it's one part, maybe even a small part, but it still helps enhance the overall experience for some. Not everyone (certainly not you) but if those who do enjoy it and are willing to pay more for it... what's the big deal? You seem to be offended that someone may *shock* actually like something you feel is frivolous. I like real, physical books, paintings, and yes games that I'm willing to pay for.... get over it.

Spoiler

Man, I almost never let Codex trolls get to me but the tired old argument of "I don't like it so you shouldn't either gets really annoying... Oh yeah, I forgot where I'm posting... sorry, go back to ranting...

 

[crawlkill]

I like real, physical books, paintings, and yes games that I'm willing to pay for.... get over it.

And you're also willing to cause two-week delays to people who actually live in the now and recognize that that has no actual value. Fortunately, people like you will not be catered to for long, and hard copies of most things will go the way of the gramophone.

This is way beyond "I don't like it so you shouldn't." This is "You are not examining your own values." This is "You are living in the past." This is "You sound like your grandfather when he says he doesn't like email." Do you respect people who say they don't like email? Would you respect someone who says that communication can never happen on, say, a forum? Do you appreciate that?

Yeah, neither do I. I don't appreciate this bullshit either.

And let's not forget that it was "enjoy your shitty download" that started this conflict. I can tolerate people so retrograde, so backward, so blind that they think that it's supes important to have boxes for things. I can't tolerate those people thinking that they have a leg to stand on. You can like it. You should just be properly afuckingshamed.

Seriously, do you read Kickstarter after-action reports? Because every single one I've ever read that's offered hard copies of anything has wailed about how much more expensive it was than they'd anticipated, what a huge headache it is, the implication being that if people like you would get the fuck over yourselves and accept that ones and zeroes are ones and zeroes and would contribute without that physical tier that they wouldn't do one. You're holding them hostage with your insistence on being primitive. Why? Seriously? Why?

 

[mindx2]

I like real, physical books, paintings, and yes games that I'm willing to pay for.... get over it.

And you're also willing to cause two-week delays to people who actually live in the now and recognize that that has no actual value. Fortunately, people like you will not be catered to for long, and hard copies of most things will go the way of the gramophone.

This is way beyond "I don't like it so you shouldn't." This is "You are not examining your own values." This is "You are living in the past." This is "You sound like your grandfather when he says he doesn't like email." Do you respect people who say they don't like email? Would you respect someone who says that communication can never happen on, say, a forum? Do you appreciate that?

Yeah, neither do I. I don't appreciate this bullshit either.

And let's not forget that it was "enjoy your shitty download" that started this conflict. I can tolerate people so retrograde, so backward, so blind that they think that it's supes important to have boxes for things. I can't tolerate those people thinking that they have a leg to stand on. You can like it. You should just be properly afuckingshamed.

No shame here... . Sorry you have to wait for your instant gratification for a couple of weeks... darn kids these days... walking all over my yard...

 

[crawlkill]

No shame here... . Sorry you have to wait for your instant gratification for a couple of weeks... darn kids these days... walking all over my yard...

I don't care when it's released. I care about the reason for the delay. I care that the delay is because of this pointless boxed bullshit that has no reason to exist other than to satisfy people who only get off on remembering the excitement of opening boxes in their childhood. And, presumably, fucking the boxes. I have to pretend there's some rational basis, here, it's really throwing your crowd a bone to assume you're boxfuckers.

 

[Tigranes]

a game you can't hold in your hands is worthless--which, if you haven't read the thread, is EXACTLY what's been suggested here, repeatedly

I doubt that position is held by more than a few Codexians. But sure, if you like, I agree that such an extremist position is obsolete and on its last legs. I don't care to say it's wrong or silly, for which there is not actually good basis.

Delaying due to physical goods is also stupid. I assume the delay affects boxed copies and they don't want to punish high tier backers by sending out their boxed CDs later than digital downloads, though that still strikes me as odd - doesn't everyone who pledged for physical copies get a digital download as well? I don't know why you can't release the game then send the shit when it's ready.

 

[Darkzone]

Tigranes 'reproached reason' says google translator, but i doubt that this is the right translation from german. What i mean is: one states a minor reason, while in truth it is a differnt one.
No matter what, i do not see this it in a bad way. Because this means for inXile, that they can polish up further the product. Also the boxes are being made and sent by Deep Silver and not by inXile, or do you think that the dev team at inXile is packing the boxes, and sending them through the UPS to us.
Imagine Fargo, Avellone and Co packaging the XXk copies, together in Brians home, like the Kickstarter party:
Brian then to Ziets: f..k 500 pieces more.. i can't take it anymore. Why the f.. is Beeker still in europe... let him fly in...
Colin: i did not sign up for this... this is TORMENT!!!
Avellone: i want to go home...

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't know why you can't release the game then send the shit when it's ready.

Of course they can, other kickstarters did just that.
But when you have cardboard allergy I guess it looks like boxes are the ultimate evil.

Also nobody in this thread said that a game you can't hold in your hands is worthless, but simply that they prefer a physical version over a download. Just like if I have the choice between an ebook and a real book, yes, I will read the real one. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't read an electronic-only book out of some principle.

So, whatchu gonna do about it, crawlkill? Did you already bust a nut because there are people who don't entirely appreciate your shitty future of shitty games running on shitty malware?

 

[Infinitron]

I don't know why you can't release the game then send the shit when it's ready.

Perhaps this: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...iewed-by-guy-cocker.93262/page-2#post-3410872

Infinitron can you change the name to boxcodex.net for a day it seems to be what the people want I'd like an extensive review series on boxes why does no one ever address the box in their reviews what is it with these boxless peasants don't they box box box box

Well, I believe I'm the person on the Codex who coined the term "boxfags", so I've already done my part.

 

[JarlFrank]

I always buy boxed copies when possible because I like having physical copies...

... but I also thing GoG is one of the best things that has happened in recent years.

By crawlkill's definition I should be a paradox that cannot exist.

 

[Darkzone]

Ohhh Infi. Let me show you an other person, that you called a "boxfag":

Sry i had to do this. But do i want to see more of this kind of persons? I think Roguey can introduce you to one.
And take a good look in the Torment videos from McComb what you see in the shelf.

 

[King Crispy]

A long, long time ago, likely before crawkill was even born, in the year MCMLXXXVI to be exact, there was a game that was released called Might & Magic Book One: The Secret of the Inner Sanctum, for Apple ][ and other formats.

This game was presented in a very large (by today's standards) game box, measuring some 9 inches wide by about 11 inches long, had a large spiral-bound manual with sleeves to hold the 5.25" installation diskettes, and contained other miscellaneous goodies as well. This was in an era long before the internet, long before the notion of digital downloads, obviously, but it was not uncommon to see games presented in this way back then.

A few months ago, some 28 years later, I somehow came across the manual for this game, which had laid buried in some storage box I had completely forgotten about. Holding in my hand this relic of computer gaming, this veritable artifact of my youth, felt surreal. It was nearly a religious experience. Leafing through its pages once again, admiring its hand-drawn artwork as if I were a kid again, reveling in its classic old-school feel, I almost got the same pleasure that I had the day that I bought the game, all those years ago, and I was glad. It made me genuinely happy.

I cannot actually play this game anymore, since I no longer own an Apple ][. There really would be no desire to do so because as we all know reminiscing about the old classics is sometimes much better than forcing them to resurrect themselves in their decrepit old 4-color graphics again -- they're often just better off locked away in our secure and treasured flesh-based memory banks.

But the joy that I experienced in holding that manual again, the momentary bliss I felt being transported back nearly three decades to a simpler time, to a more wondrous time, was rapturous. Somehow I don't think I'll ever be able to get that same feeling with some Steam app in another thirty years, assuming I live that long...

 

[Tigranes]

'reproached reason' says google translator, but i doubt that this is the right translation from german. What i mean is: one states a minor reason, while in truth it is a differnt one.

What's the German for it? It'd be cool to know. And sure, I'd be happier if this was just an excuse. Though it is a rather silly excuse.

Crispy part of it might be that when I started buying games myself in the 2000s, most boxes were already forgettable things. I hold on to a wrapped copy of PST, though sadly in a DVD case, and I want to get BG1 / BG2 boxes at some point because those were very nice, but otherwise, boxes were mostly something to pore over when I didn' thave the money to afford the games. (I remember spending a few hours wondering whether Wizardry 8 was worth it, sans any kind of context about the series...)

 

[Darkzone]

Ohh Crispy you vile creature. Why you have to remind me of it, my heart is still bleeding, that i have lost book one to three.

Tigranes
It is a sentence and Sleight of hand would be the best translation of the meaning and procedure. The part that has been wrong translated was: Hinter vorgehalter Hand und die vorgetragenen Gründe.....
Normally i do not translate what i post to english from german, i do it in the reverse way. I write it first in english and then i let it translate into german, and if the translator does this correct, then i post it.

 

[Sam Ecorners]

I'm becoming a fan of crawlkill